Father Murray, whoever he might be, should examine the document of the Church from last year Dominus Iesus is he needs help defining the Church.
Suffice it to say that the Church in this phrase is none other than the Catholic one, the only one.
I'm starting to worry that they saw a picture of the Pope over the holidays and all of their heads exploded.
Yet, another thread where one could get into trouble. Nearly every sentence spouting false teaching, heresy!
God is leading some toward salvation through other religions? This comes from a Christian? It's no wonder that the education system has become so liberal. The Christian educators can't even get salvation correct.
Confusion seems to reign, for whatever reason.
"Baptism by desire" just requires whatever is going on in the soul of a person (a non-Catholic, for instance) and the ministrations of God's grace. No human agent or bureaucratic administration is in control of dispensing grace. "The Church" which is present in the "salvation" of such a soul is "the Mystical Body of Christ." Ecclesiologically speaking, "the Church" should never be confused with whatever earthly institutional structure happens to be representing it. It's a reality much more than that. Quite beyond the external corporate structure of any congregation, parish, diocese, bishops' conference, etc. Clericalism is not "the Church."
There is sometimes an eschatologically hubristic tendency for individual clergymen to think that they alone are "the Church." This is wrong. Since none of us are ever present in a situation to know the condition of a soul when a person actually dies, no one living knows who is ever saved or damned. Only God does. It's great whenever very holy Christians manage to mature into wise, loving, and devout clergymen. Since this is not always the case, obviously the mystical/invisible/spiritual dimension of the Church, the communion directly between God and souls, has priority.
Matt 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
WE all have to either accept Christ or to deny Him. Earthly institutions, good deeds, or intentions will NOT save anyone.
Pope John Paul II, writes, at p. 198 of his book, "Crossing the Threshold":
"In fact, those who through no fault of their own are not aware of the Gospel of Christ and the Church, but who nonetheless search sincerely for God, and with the help of grace attempt to carry out His will, known through the dictates of their conscience they too can attain eternal salvation.
"Nor will Divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who have not yet arrived at a clear knowledge and recognition of God, and who attempt, not without divine grace, to conduct a good life."
Can you or anyone give me a Vatican II source for that teaching?
The DNC is going to have to add Catholics to "right-wing Bible believers" in order to avoid hypocrisy or shed light on their own religious mis-understanding in the upcoming Dem. campaign to paint the Christian right as the Taliban's equivalent.
We've so thoroughly shut God out of the public debate that these grown Dems. can actually be ignorant enough to compare God's command to "love your neighbor" in the Bible that all Christians follow (even those churches where Hillary and John Edwards go to condemn Republicans during election years), with the Koran's missive from Allah to kill infidels.
Worldlings in the press should not report on non-secular matters, IMHO.
I was not referring to Father Murray here!
The situation is clear.
God MAY save some people outside the Church, such salvation will be through Jesus and we can't lay precise restrictions upon Him.
But the Church PROVIDES A PATH TO SALVATION which we are promised if we accept Jesus. There is no longer a MAY about it, because God has PROMISED it, if we accept Jesus we WILL be saved.
Many people here seem to be unable to recognize the distinctions between "none", "some" and "all". Those who pretend that Catholics are denying the need for existence of the Church are purposely interpreting "God MAY save SOME non-Christians" as "God WILL save non-Christians who live a good life etc." All that is really going on is that the Church is saying we cannot presume to say that everyone who has not explicitly accepted Jesus WILL go to hell.
"A implies B" is not the same as "not A implies not B". Just because we are ASSURED that there is salvation within the Church doesn't mean we can conclude there is salvation ONLY within the church; the most we say is that there is ASSURED salvation ONLY within the Church. ("Church" here refers to all Christians, not just Roman Catholics.)
Pope Boniface VIII (1302 A.D.):
So, when the Greeks and others say that they were not committed to the care of Peter and his successors, they must confess that they are not of Christs sheep, even as the Lord says in John, There is one fold and one shepherd... Furthermore, that every human creature is subject to the Roman pontiff,this we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be altogether necessary to salvation (From the Bull Unam Sanctam).
The Council of Florence:
The sacrosanct Roman Church...firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, and almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church (44Henry Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma (London: Herder, 1954), p. 230, #714).
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216 A.D.):
By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved (From the letter Eius exemplo. Found in Denzinger, p. 166, #423).
Pope Clement VI (1342-1352 A.D.):
No man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved (From the letter Super quibusdum. Found in Denzinger, p. 204, #570b).
Pius IX (1846-1878 A.D.):
For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God...But the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well- known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior, cannot obtain eternal salvation (From the Allocution, Singulari quadem. Found in Denzinger, pp. 416, 425; #1647, 1677).
The Council of Trent
Seventh Session: Decree Concerning the Sacraments
For the completion of the salutary doctrine on Justification...it hath seemed suitable to treat of the most holy Sacraments of the Church, through which all true justice either begins, or being begun is increased, or being lost is repaired. After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified.
Canon I: If anyone saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or that they are more, or less, than seven, namely, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order and Matrimony; or that any of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament: let him be anathema.
Canon IV: If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification; - though all (the sacraments) are not necessary for every individual: let him be anathema.
Canon VIII: If any one saith, that by the said sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred through the act performed, but that faith alone in the divine promise suffices for the obtaining of grace: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919 ed.), pp. 118-121).
Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment, or by her ordinary and universal magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. And since, without faith, it is impossible to please God, and to attain to the fellowship of his children, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will any one obtain eternal life unless he shall have persevered in faith unto the end...The first condition of salvation is to keep the rule of the true faith.
If any one, therefore, shall say that blessed Peter the Apostle was not appointed the Prince of all the Apostles and the visible Head of the whole Church militant; or that the same directly and immediately received from the same our Lord Jesus Christ a primacy of honor only, and not of true and proper jurisdiction: let him be anathema.
If, then, any should deny that it is by institution of Christ the Lord, or by divine right, that blessed Peter should have a perpetual line of successors in the Primacy over the universal Church, or that the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.
We teach and define that it is a dogma divinely revealed: that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith and morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed for defining doctrine regarding faith or morals; and that therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church.But if any onewhich may God avertpresume to contradict this our definition: let him be anathema.
This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and salvation (Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (New York: Harper, 1877), Dogmatic Decrees of the Vatican Council, On Faith, Chapter III; Chp. 4, pp. 266-71).
This sacred Synod turns its attention first to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon sacred Scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. For Christ, made present to us in His body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique Way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn. 3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her could not be saved.
The mission of the Church concerns the salvation of men, which is to be achieved by belief in Christ and by His grace. Hence the apostolate of the Church and of all her members is primarily designed to manifest Christs message by words and deeds and to communicate His grace to the world. This work is done mainly through the ministry of the Word and of the sacraments, which are entrusted in a special way to the clergy (The Documents of Vatican II (Chicago: Follett, 1966), Walter M. Abbott, S.J., General Editor.
So I ask, do we believe what they say (or write) or what they teach and hold as true?
The concept of an "original" sin having been committed must also be acknowledged to participate in the discussion.
If neither is acknowledged, comments by churches and antiquity translations are meaningless.
What has one to say if they do not accept the original guilt trip?