Myth: The Founders Established A Wall of Separation Between Church and State

excerpt from the book Five Lies of the Century pp. 15-30 | 1995 | David T. Moore

[rwfromkansas]

Yep, heaven forbid we prohibit human sacrifices. Just kidding, I know you would be in favor of keeping that outlawed because it violates the sacrificee's right to life.

But seriously, I am another person who would support a theocracy because I believe this is God's will for govt. However, he does not force this on a people either, they need to covenant together to mutually agree to lift him up even in their govt and laws. It is completely unbibilical to force a nation to do this without a covenant made by the people toward God to do so and thus, I would be against such a theocracy in America. Now, if a group in America splintered off and formed their own nation to do this, that is fine and I might just join them. I love America, but I would like to see a nation that exalts Christ in all its ways. The way Christianity used to be, there definitely could be the threat of despotism getting in, but the way things are now, I think if there were checks to keep corruption from coming, such a nation would be a light to the world and would be the first theocracy to work in teh modern age. Islamic theocracies are repressive regimes...I can't see that in a modern Christian theocracy if one would spring up. I recall a nation in Africa that recently as acknowledged itself as the one Christian nation in the world...I forgot which country it was though. It would be fascinating to compare it to Sudan.

[rwfromkansas]

Nice try. If we look at the pillar of all docs that supposedly supports separation, the Memorial and Remonstrance, it even acknowledges a belief in one true religion, Christianity.

[rwfromkansas]

You are correct that we are not a Christian nation. I grant you that.

[R. Scott]

" And yet this they do, forbidding even student-led, student-initiated prayer at high school football games."

Prayer has not been forbidden. Students and parents are welcome to have a prayer prior to entering the taxpayer supported stadium.
The last court ruling I read on this, the prayer was not forbidden - the use of public owned equipment was. Why should my tax money be used for religious purposes? Would you object to the PA system, and time allocated for the game being used to promote a pagan religion?

[R. Scott]

"That is rarely true of a Christian that knows he stands on the Rock that is higher than he is!"

Some "Christians" believe that either that rock is very unstable, or they fear they aren't worthy of standing on it themselves.

[Dr. Good Will Hunting]

And there is the case for private school vouchers.

[Sir Gawain]

It's too late.

[R. Scott]

"I can't see that in a modern Christian theocracy if one would spring up. "

That would depend on the founding fathers. If the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robinson were involved, it would scare the daylights out of me! From what I have heard listening to them, a new inquisition would not be far fetched.

[Dr. Good Will Hunting]

Would you object to the PA system, and time allocated for the game being used to promote a pagan religion?

They are used to promote a pagan religion.

It's called Feminism.

[Dr. Good Will Hunting]

It's too late.

Prithee, what are these strange words?

I know them not !

[Dr. Good Will Hunting]

"...a new inquisition would not be far fetched."

As opposed to the current one then?

[Sir Gawain]

My belief is that this is all helping pave the way for the anti-christ. The way I will combat it is my homeschooling or sending my kids to a Christian school. I will opt out of the Beast's school system. I don't think reversing the trend is possible.

[JoeA]

A terrific piece. Suggest you add the footnotes and submit it for publication. I for one am going to circulate it among liberals who can read just to enjoy their befuddled responses.

Brilliant!

[Sir Gawain]

Look at the source. I'm not the author.

[Dr. Good Will Hunting]

I don't think reversing the trend is possible.

With faith, all things are possible, for men of good will.

Never surrender society to evil.

All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.

Italics off.

Bold off.

Have a nice day.

[rwfromkansas]

I am aware of that bill...in fact, it was introduced the same day his anti-sabbath breaking bill was done. I will find a link for you.

[rwfromkansas]

"In this respect, Jefferson and Madison probably erred by introducing a bill for the punishment of Sabbath breakers, which became Virginia law in 1786. This example serves only to dispel the myth that these men were strict separationists. Whether or not one keeps the Sabbath is a matter of conscience, under the guidance of family, peers, and teachers-who can influence enormously the conduct and thinking of individuals, and who have plenty of means at their disposal to deter unacceptable behavior. Similarly, most Americans today would not have wanted to live in Massachusetts, Connecticut, or New Hampshire under the Congregational Church establishment. These examples function only to illustrate that the framers intended to restrict federal and not state authority on religious matters. Jefferson was correct in his effort to disestablish the Anglican Church in Virginia on the grounds that people ought to be free to support and attend the denomination of their choosing- or not to attend at all. Church attendance should not be a government concern, but is a matter between man and Maker." http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/ff/chap23.html

"Usually omitted from the legislative histories penned by radical secularists is Madison's "Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers" - especially interesting because it was presented the same day (October 31, 1785) as Madison's and Jefferson's "Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom." The law providing for the punishment of Sabbath breakers included the following language: "If any person on Sunday shall himself be found laboring at his own or any other trade or calling, or shall employ the apprentices, servants or slaves in labor, or other business, except it be in the ordinary household offices of daily necessity, or other work of necessity or charity, he shall forfeit the sum of ten shillings for every such offense, deeming every apprentice, servant, or slave so employed, and every day he shall be so employed as constituting a distinct offense." Jefferson wrote many of the bills introduced by Madison, and probably drafted this one as well." http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/ff/chap22.html

Furthermore, Maryland Vs. McGowan upheld blue laws.

[rwfromkansas]

Here is what Rutgers University says about this: "As President, Jefferson parted with tradition by declining to issue religious proclamations because he considered the national government “interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.” Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Rev. Samuel Miller (Jan. 23, 1808), in Jefferson Writings, supra, at 1186. As a state legislator, however, he partook in a sweeping revision of Virginia’s laws, which included: A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers; A Bill for Appointing Days of Public Fasting and Thanksgiving; and A Bill Annulling Marriages Prohibited by the Levitical Law, and Appointing the Mode of Solemnizing Lawful Marriage. Reprinted in 2 The Papers of Thomas Jefferson 555-558 (J. Boyd ed. 1950)." http://www-camlaw.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/elliott_footnotes.htm