The bible and the Catholic Church

[Romulus]

Philippians 2:9f For which cause, God also hath exalted him and hath given him a name which is above all names: That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.

Veneration of images. The name of Jesus is given to him -- not intrinsic to his being -- and thus represents him. IOW, it is an image, one that we venerate.

QED

[Dataman]

Just teasing you

I have to quit that (teasing). I know how to spell and if in doubt have the necessary tools at my finger tips. I find too often, when the conversation becomes intense, my mind spells a word correctly but my fingers rebel. Even after proof-reading, an obvious error will elude my eyes. Some day I'll be perfect, but not as long as I'm alive.

[Dataman]

What historical truths do you base this on?

Skeptics are not required to support their claims, don't you know?

[eastsider]

Veneration of images. The name of Jesus is given to him -- not intrinsic to his being -- and thus represents him. IOW, it is an image, one that we venerate.

First time I've heard this one. Simple and direct.

QED

SPQR : )

[netman]

For a good insight as to who and where the Church was through history get this Book!

The Pilgrim Church

By E. H. Broadbent

The title of this book is well chosen and calculated to challenge today's reader. Events that took place in the initial phase of the church's history are presented in the record of Scripture, while the most recent events have been well documented. But what of the intervening years, and the chapter of events that bridges the considerable gap between early and latter days?

The survival of the authentic church is proof that God's hand of preservation has rested upon this select, unique company over all the years of existence. Not all the attacks that have been mounted by Satan, many issuing from sources of organized religion, have prevailed to the extinction of the church.

E. H. Broadbent reveals, through his painstaking research, how faithful companies of God's people, with clear attachment to the teaching of the scripture, upheld in their testimony and practices that which God had instituted from the beginning. It makes for thrilling reading and demonstrates the progress of a 'pilgrim church' over centuries of darkness, declension and persecution.

This handsome hard-back edition, of what has long been regarded as a classic account of church history, deserves a place on everyone's bookshelf. Additional to the contents of earlier editions is a collection of maps, in colour, that give indication of the locations and movements of these various groups of Christians

456pp, published by Gospel Folio Press, P.O. Box 2041, Grand Rapids MI 49501-2041. Available in the UK from John Ritchie Ltd., 40 Beansburn, Kilmarnock, KA3 1RH. (ISBN 1-882701-53-4).

[BibChr]

These Christians had no cannon of Scriptures

Cannon

Canon

Important distinction.

Dan
Biblical Christianity web site

[patent]

That you don't like what I say is irrelevant to its truth-content,

Agreed, whether I like what you say is irrelevant to whether it is true or not. Likewise, whether you like what I say is irrelevant.

which in this case not only is 100%,

Incorrect.

but is one of what an RC thinks is his bragging-points

Incorrect. We do not think that “To a Roman Catholic, it [Jesus saying it] would mean nothing — until some man told him what he was required to believe that it meant.” No Catholic brags about ignoring Jesus’ words until some man tells him to believe XYZ about it. Not only don’t we brag about it [your contention] but we don’t even do it. The Bible is Sacred Scripture, completely and wholly true. We take it that way, and while we recognize that God chose to have the Church define the books that were inspired, it in no way changes that the Bible is God’s Word. while we recognize that God left an authority on earth to interpret it, we do not think it means nothing until that authority acts.

patent  +AMDG

[SoothingDave]

Excellent.

SD

[1stFreedom]

Cool. A good response, but with limited time I have to keep my response short.

>>It is obvious from 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that the Apostles viewed the Scriptures as sufficient for faith and practice.

This verse doesn't fit the context. I'm not questioning the completion of scripture nor it's uses.

The article tries to prove the authenticity of the writings. That *isn't* in dispute here, nor the Promises of the Lord. The belief deposit of faith was once delivered is not in dispute either, so I'll skip these items.

As far as Rev. 22:18,19 goes, nobody has *really* added or subtracted to the NT canon (OT canon is in dispute). True, some groups have changed meanings while translating (JW, for example) but nobody had added or subtracted any books. (Some passages are disputed in the NT, see Itala below).

The first weakness of the article is the reliance of the NT to prove the NT. That evidence is circular in nature and really doesn't define a canon. The NT would have to list a canon or at least a list of writings to be used to prove/verify a NT canon.

>>The apostolic writings which formed the New Testament Scriptures were accepted as Scripture by the first century churches.

And so were other writings. The writings had to be sifted through and tested. And not all the writings *were* accepted as scriptural, otherwise there would be no confusion later in the Church (see comments on Clement)

>>Christian leaders in the second century recognized the completed canon of the New Testament and accepted the apostolic writings as Holy Scripture on equal authority ... unquestioned authority" (Herbert Miller, General Biblical Introduction, p. 140).

First of all, Ireneus wasn't responsible for determing the canon. He was blessed that he recognized inspired writings. This isn't proof as to what the canon is.

>>Clement of Alexandria (150-217) quotes from and acknowledges the four Gospels and most other New Testament books, calling them "divine Scriptures."

Hmm. Clement recognizes MOST other NT books? Why not all? If it were sooo clear, then why not all? Only proves that point that the canon was fully defined. It may have has some "legs" at that point in time.

>>Tertullian (150-220) made 7,200 citations from the New Testament books and accepted them as Scripture.

Once again, this doesn't make a canon or prove one. It points to a recognition of Inspired writings, but not a difinitive canon.

>>The Latin Itala translation which was made in the second century "contained all the books that now make up the New Testament" (John Hentz, History of the Lutheran Version, p. 59).

WHOA, WAIT. STOP THE BUS. Now we get to the OT. Seems that the Itala version had the so called "apocraphal" books (the books that the Catholics supposedly added to the OT) and so called "additions" to Daniel and Esther. If you use the Itala as proof of a canon, then doesn't it prove what the canon of the OT is as well? Hmm, you probably won't agree with that, which only proves my point. A canon, on it's own, does not determine the infallible canon. Only the Church could do that, through the Holy Spirit. And this finally happened in the late 300s.

>>This second-century list contained all of the books of the New Testament canon (Ibid., p. 60).

Once again, a canon cannot determine the true canon on it's own -- and if think it does, better put those "apocraphal" writings back in!!

Look, saying that the canon was recognized in 392 doesn't mean that in 391 everybody had no clue as to what was scripture and what wasn't. Obviously, the church had knowledge and history (and varying canons) of what was considered Sacred Scripture. The task was to define a single canon for all so that there would be no questions.

>>Thus the completed Greek New Testament Scriptures were being circulated and accepted by God's people under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Hmm. Clement shouldn't have been confused about the NT if this were the case. Also, if they accepted it, then they also accepted the "apocraphal" writings under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Gee, was the Holy Spirit right about the NT but wrong about the OT canon?

>>working of the Holy Spirit in the inspiration and canonicity of the New Testament.

My argument *is* that the Holy Spirit was behind the canon of the NT. The Church didn't do it unguided, but it took the Church, not Ireneus or Tertulian, to define it.

[BibChr]

Sorry, not true; you're either being dishonest, or someone's not been honest with you. This is like a Christian denying that he believes that Jesus is God incarnate. The Roman Catholic is not free to see in Scripture anything at variance with The Magisterium's dictates. If he does, he's not a loyal Roman Catholic.

This is not a secret item, P. You don't have to have the club ring to know it. I will never understand why you people dissemble about your beliefs, and try to smear those who simply repeat them. If your sect's tenets embarrass you, LEAVE IT. But be honest about those tenets.

Dan

[american colleen]

Call me stupid but I don't see how the Catholic Church fell into apostacy. Is there backup somewhere for that assertion? I would really like to read it.

I just read a very entertaining and informative book regarding the start and flowering of the Catholic Church in historical context. It is IMO a great book for history lovers of all denominations.

Triumph - the Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, a 2000 year history. By H. W. Crocker III

I am a history buff anyway and it seems to me that the author stayed with the facts that we know from the ancient historians and he did not try to "fit" facts to support the Catholic Church and her views.

[1stFreedom]

Thanks for the advice. I trimmed some paragraphs which I determined were possibly offending. That's probably why I haven't been booted yet!

[Unbeliever]

Veneration of images. The name of Jesus is given to him -- not intrinsic to his being -- and thus represents him. IOW, it is an image, one that we venerate.

The name of Jesus is not a thing created by the hand of man.

ROMANS 1:19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
ROMANS 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
ROMANS 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
ROMANS 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
ROMANS 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
ROMANS 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
ROMANS 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
ROMANS 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
ROMANS 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
ROMANS 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
ROMANS 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
ROMANS 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
ROMANS 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
ROMANS 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[netman]

view> The Heartbeat of The Remnant

 

The Pilgrim Church

Are you one of those people who think history is boring? Maybe you think church history is the most boring of all, a tedious list of names and places that you can neither pronounce nor remember. Allow us to recommend a totally different kind of church history book, The Pilgrim Church. Its story will fascinate, inspire, and challenge you. It is simply the account of God’s faithful remnant, which the author calls The Pilgrim Church, from the time of Pentecost until the early twentieth century. Thoroughly researched and very well documented, it shows clearly that God has always preserved a faithful Church. In every stage of history there have been groups of sincere, seeking souls who separated themselves from the world and the religious establishment and sought only to serve God and live like Jesus. In The Pilgrim Church, E.H. Broadbent records the history of many of those groups, documenting their failures as honestly as their successes.

In the first chapter, the author explains his book. Events in the history of the churches in the time of the apostles have been selected and recorded in the Book of Acts in such a way as to provide a permanent pattern for the churches. Departure from this pattern has had disastrous consequences, and all revival and restoration have been due to some return to the pattern and principles in the Scriptures. The following account…shows that there has been a continuous succession of churches composed of believers who have made it their aim to act on the teaching of the New Testament. This succession is not necessarily to be found in any one place; often such churches have been dispersed or have degenerated, but similar ones have appeared in other places. The pattern is so clearly delineated in Scriptures as to have made it possible for churches of this character to spring up in fresh places and among believers who did not know that disciples before them had taken the same path, or that there were some in their own time in other parts of the world.

Very early in the history of the church, men had already complicated the simple message of the Gospel, claimed inappropriate power and authority, and lost sight of some of the most basic Bible truths. Writing about the Lord’s Supper being corrupted into a supposedly miraculous act performed only by a priest, Broadbent says that this was one of several things that …intensified the growing distinction between clergy and laity. The growth of a clerical system under the domination of the bishops, who in turn were ruled by “Metropolitans” controlling extensive territories, substituted a human organization and religious forms for the power and working of the Holy Spirit and the guidance of the Scriptures…

Sad to say, even in those early days the Church was splintering into many mutually exclusive factions, but one thing they all had in common was persecution. When the Church came into contact with the Roman Empire, a conflict ensued in which all the resources of that mighty power were exhausted in a vain endeavor to vanquish those who never resisted or retaliated…. However much the churches were divided in view and practice, they were united in suffering and victory.

The fourth century saw the first union of Church and State, a lamentable violation of all New Testament teaching on the subject, and within a short time, the so-called Church had all the power of the State at its disposal. But always there were those lovers of the truth who rejected the very idea of such an unholy alliance, and simply sought to follow Jesus Christ. Pagans and professing Church alike viciously persecuted such people for centuries, but the true light was never extinguished. The first three centuries of the Church’s history prove that no earthly power can crush it. It is invincible to attacks from without. The witnesses of its sufferings, and even its persecutors, become its converts and it grows more rapidly than it can be destroyed. …the union of the Church and the State, even when the powers of the mightiest Empire are put into the Church’s hands, do not enable her to save the State from destruction, for, in abandoning the position which her very name implies, of being “called out” of the world and of separation to Christ, she loses the power that comes from subjection to her Lord, exchanging it for an earthly authority that is fatal to herself.

As The Pilgrim Church clearly shows through many chapters, the greatest harm is done to the Church not by persecution, but by the rise of false doctrine from among her own members. Yet as Broadbent affirms, the pattern for the New Testament Church is delineated so clearly in the Acts of the Apostles that a true church can grow up in any place where honest people simply read and obey the Word of God. Some of the most inspiring accounts in this book are of such people, who with no human example to follow, simply accepted the biblical pattern and were used by God in the growth of the Pilgrim Church. Some attempted to reform the corrupt system in which they found themselves, while many others broke away entirely and began anew in faith. Although their beliefs and practices varied somewhat among different groups, most of them had in common a passion to know Christ and become like Him.

Broadbent quotes extensively from the works of many writers through every age of the Pilgrim Church. One of them writes in the seventeenth century about the One Thing Needful: Christendom has become a labyrinth. The faith has been split into a thousand little parts and you are made a heretic if there is one of them you do not accept…What can help? Only the one thing needful: return to Christ, looking to Christ as the only Leader, and walking in His footsteps, setting aside all other ways until we reach the goal, and have come to the unity of the faith (Eph. 4:13). As the Heavenly Master built everything on the ground of the Scriptures, so should we leave all particularities of our special confessions and be satisfied with the revealed Word of God which belongs to us all. There is the heartbeat of the Pilgrim Church, the common desire that has bound God’s people together through two millennia.

The author’s estimation of the Anabaptists could well be applied to many other groups: …It was not the form of baptism that gave them courage to suffer as they did. They were aware of immediate communion with their Redeemer; no man and no religious form came between their souls and Him…This fellowship with Him enabled them to understand their communion with those who shared it with them, and in their churches to realize the fellowship of saints. These churches had various beginnings, various histories, and differed according to the character of the persons in them; but all were alike in their desire to adhere to the pattern of primitive Christianity found in the New Testament…. Taking this path they were subject to special temptations, and wherever they yielded to fleshly desires, political aims or covetousness, their fall was great, but by far the greater part were enabled to bear a good testimony to the faithfulness of God.

This book is not the story of a single denomination or a particular group. It spans 1,900 years of history, and records the stories of believers who were known by many different names in dozens of different countries. In addition to well-known groups like the Anabaptists, Moravians, and Waldensians, The Pilgrim Church recounts the history of many long-forgotten assemblies whose stories will inspire and encourage you. Jesus Christ has promised to build His Church, and this book will thrill you with the history of the fulfillment of that promise. In every age, in many places, under widely varying circumstances, among people of all walks of life, He has indeed built His Church.

If you have ever been tempted to despair as you compared modern Christianity’s anemia with the early Church’s fearless power, reading The Pilgrim Church will renew your faith. That desire to return to the truth and find the ‘one thing needful’ is the very thing that has inspired many chapters in the story of the Pilgrim Church. It begins with people like you, accepting the Word of God as it stands instead of in the context of your particular creed or confession. When you are willing to do that, willing to ‘come out from among them’, willing to face ostracism and persecution, and willing to pay any price to be ‘conformed to His image’, then you can join the eternal, triumphant story of The Pilgrim Church.

E.H. Broadbent • Copyright © 1931
Copyright © 1999 • Gospel Folio Press
P.O. Box 2041
Grand Rapids, MI 49501-2041

This book is available from:
Benchmark Press
1593 Pinola Rd. • Shippensburg, PA 17257
U.S.A.
(717) 530-8595 • ebbpinola@juno.com
Cost: US$22 + shipping

 

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Last updated Friday, October 19, 2001 07:52:22 AM -0400

 

 

[BibChr]

Okay, so, now let me finish up this conversation.

You say, "Oh right, Pope Dan the Non-Catholic now tells me, a Roman Catholic, what Roman Catholics believe."

And I say, "Right, I have had about a hundredy-kajillion conversations about the same issue with Roman Catholics, but I can't tell you what any of them has answered. It's a mystery."

Then it's silent for a moment.

Then you say, "Well... Clinton sucks."

And I say, "You got that right, bud!"

And we leave arm in arm.

How's that? Work for you?

Dan
(c8

[Poohbah]

THE CANNON IS RECOGNIZED

Try using "canon" instead. I recognize a cannon when I see a howitzer.

[1stFreedom]

>>JWs and Mormons are certainly unreliable sources for any kind of history,

Hmm, what about John Calvin? Seems he was wrong about some historical writings (The so called spurious writings of darn, I forget the name,Origen?). He used them for proof against the Catholic Church. But, turns out that he was wrong. The "spurious" writings were found in a library and dated back to his time, and as far as all now know, are authentic. So, just how reliable is Calvin????

>>The writer continues to be deliberately vague and pretends to have resolved the apostasy question. He also fails to distinguish between a formal and a pre-existing informal Canon.

True, I don't mention that there were pre-existing canons. HOWEVER, you have a good point and I'll have to add some discussion of this.

>>He conveniently fails to mention the reason for the Canon in the first place: pseudepigrapha began to circulate.

I do mention it. "But there were also other writings that were considered to be inspired (such as the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Joseph, etc.). The early Church had to determine whether or not various writings were inspired." And I do not go into the OT controversy, as I do mention.

>>The conclusion is not inescapable because the assumptions about the Church and the Cannon have not been established.

Hmm, I think it is. I may need to add more about earlier canons and such, but the evidicence only makes my argument stronger.

[Hat-Trick]

The name of Jesus is not a thing created by the hand of man.

Concur. An angel of the Lord in Luke 1:31 said:

"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

and the Prophet Isaiah in 7:14 said:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

[Romulus]

The name of Jesus is not a thing created by the hand of man.

Not so; the name is given by God, but it was common enough amongst the Jewish people. The name is man-made.

Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren.

1 Cor 15:49 Therefore, as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly.

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.

[Man is called to be a transfigured Image of Christ]

1 Cor 11:7 The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God.

[God creates man himself to serve him and glorify Him as His image.]

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

Coloss 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature...

[The man Jesus is God's image]

Iconoclasm always ends in the denial of the Incarnation. Just ask any Muslim.