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The Scout, the suspect and the SWAT team Shooting:
Baltimore Sun ^ | 18 March 2002 | Gail Gibson, Michael James and Laura Barnhardt

Posted on 03/18/2002 3:06:32 AM PST by Lloyd227

Edited on 09/03/2002 4:50:07 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: Lloyd227
Whatever spin the FBI gives this matter, it's clear that the entire operation, not just the stop, was bungled. I have no doubt whatsoever that the FBI will declare this a "justified shooting" and none of the Keystone Kops will be disciplined or relieved. And I have no doubt whatsoever that a jury, if it gets that far, will decide for the two victims. The FBI doesn't give one single damn about that -- it's your money.
151 posted on 03/18/2002 5:20:47 PM PST by Whilom
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Comment #152 Removed by Moderator

To: Travis McGee
Law enforcement currently suffers from three plagues :

1. Militarization

2. Federalization

3. Politicization

"Takedown" stops w/o clearly marked cars and uniforms are not "cool". Why approach the vehicle and leave cover if you are so "certain" that the situation is that "hot"? etc. etc. etc.

153 posted on 03/18/2002 8:20:48 PM PST by lawdog
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To: lawdog
"Why approach the vehicle and leave cover if you are so "certain" that the situation is that "hot"?'

From the evidence and their record, it would appear that this bunch simply enjoys the thrill of the kill.

and for those of you still in the business, clean up your industry or get out. What comes next will not be pretty.

154 posted on 03/18/2002 8:27:13 PM PST by Lloyd227
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To: lawdog
No doubt about it, and it's far more dangerous than 90% of Americans realize, or have ever even thought about.

That's why I'm writing the book; have you read this excerpt? "The Raid: New Fiction from the War On Domestic Terrorism"

155 posted on 03/18/2002 8:27:46 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Lloyd227
They bring their ultra gung ho "pray for war" mentality directly from the Rangers, SEALs, Marines etc to federal law enforcement SWAT teams.

These federal SWAT guys are not in any way investigators; they are hit men, pure and simple, with itchy trigger fingers.

156 posted on 03/18/2002 8:30:34 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Lloyd227
It's time for these people to remember what "Public Servant" means.

Bump that.

157 posted on 03/18/2002 8:42:20 PM PST by cascademountaineer
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To: nunya bidness;Travis McGee

"From the horse's mouth"

For Immediate Release

January 21, 1998

Washington D.C. FBI National Press Office

Following the recent arrests of law enforcement officers in West New York, New Jersey; Starr County, Texas; Detroit, Michigan; and Cleveland, Ohio,

FBI Director Louis J. Freeh today said, "The insidious nature of police corruption inherently undermines the confidence of the American people in one of the basic tenets of democracy--that law enforcement officers will honestly and fairly protect and serve the citizens to whom they answer. The selfish and deceitful acts of a few cannot be allowed to impugn the integrity of the law enforcement profession. For these reasons, vigorous investigation of police corruption is a FBI national priority and will remain so."

Freeh made the comments following the arrest by FBI Special Agents today of 59 persons in the Cleveland area, including 42 officers from five law enforcement agencies in Cleveland and its suburbs charged in Federal warrants with conspiracy to distribute cocaine. The defendants include 18 police officers and 24 corrections officers. The agencies are the Cleveland Police Department; Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Office in Cleveland; Cleveland Heights Police Department; East Cleveland Police Department; and the Brooklyn, Ohio, Police Department. Nine other persons accused of impersonating law enforcement officers also were charged with conspiracy to distribute cocaine. In addition, eight persons were charged in an FBI undercover operation against organized crime.

"Great credit must go to the overwhelming majority of honest police throughout the country, including those in the Cleveland area, for their vigorous efforts to prevent and combat corruption," Freeh said. "National law enforcement organizations also have been unrelenting in efforts against corruption, and the FBI is proud to be the partner of all in this essential work. Nation-wide organizations taking such major steps include the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the National Sheriffs' Association, and the Major City Chiefs."

Freeh said part of the national scope of the allegations of police corruption was also shown in three other separate cases in which the FBI made arrests in the past week:

Three Detroit police officers were charged on January 14 with conspiring to commit a robbery of approximately $1 million. In Starr County, Texas, the sheriff, a justice of the peace, and five county jailers were charged on January 14 with bribery and conspiracy to commit bribery. Nine current or former West New York, New Jersey, police officers were charged on January 13 with racketeering involving protection of prostitution and illegal gambling.

"Those arrested and charged are innocent until proven guilty but I cite corruption allegations, particularly those systemic in nature, as part of a pattern that is of growing concern to all honest local, state, and federal law enforcement personnel throughout the country," Freeh said.

Freeh said, "In recent years the FBI has arrested police officers for corruption in every region of the nation, in large, medium-sized and small cities, towns and villages; from the inner city precincts to rural sheriff's departments.

"Statistics show the FBI's commitment in fighting these threats to the integrity of the criminal justice system," Freeh said. "From 1994 to 1997, a total of 508 persons were convicted in law enforcement corruption cases investigated by the FBI. Many more officers were convicted in cases stemming from organized crime, drugs, or on other non-corruption statutory basis. Nearly 45 percent of the police corruption cases during that period were drug related."

"To their great credit, police officials throughout the nation support efforts to expose corruption and many departments have created significant reforms," Freeh said. "We are all in this together and must join forces to root out corruption at every level: local, state, and federal; police departments from our largest cities to our smallest hamlets; sheriff's departments from urban areas to the most sparsely-settled countryside.

"No law enforcement agency, and certainly not the FBI, is immune from the scourge of corruption. The FBI is as tough or tougher on its own personnel as on any other agency, and we have arrested FBI Special Agents, and obtained convictions, on a variety of charges," Freeh said.

"Police corruption knows no state or regional borders. It must be attacked not only by everyone in the law enforcement profession but also by elected officials from the governor's office to the state legislature to the mayor's office to the city council," Freeh said. "Ultimately, it is the public that must demand from their elected officials and law enforcement executives an absolute commitment to integrity."

Freeh said, "Police corruption aids criminals and reduces the level of protection that police give to the public, particularly in those neighborhoods already victimized by crime. Law enforcement must have 100 percent dedication to its sacred oath to protect the public from harm, but corrupt police officers will not protect the public from anything--not the worst crimes.

"All law enforcement agencies must work to make certain that the men and women of their departments are held to the highest standards of integrity, and I cannot stress strongly enough the importance of joint, cooperative efforts by the FBI with all other law enforcement agencies in the nation to go forward together in this crucial fight against corruption," Freeh said.

"Together, we must ensure that the law enforcement profession hires only the best; trains those officers regarding integrity issues; closely supervises them; and aggressively investigates when allegations of misconduct arise. For it is only through a clear, forceful and united message by the vast majority of honest and dedicated law enforcement professionals-- that corruption will not be tolerated--that we can hope to retain the trust and confidence of the American people," Freeh said.

"For the FBI, a vigorous anti-corruption program is among our highest national priorities, and will continue to be," Freeh said.

158 posted on 03/19/2002 3:12:43 AM PST by Donald Stone
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Comment #159 Removed by Moderator

Comment #160 Removed by Moderator

Comment #161 Removed by Moderator

To: Cap'n Crunch
I also tend to think war. We shall see, unfortunately.

Stay well - Stay saf e- Stay armed - Yorktown

162 posted on 03/19/2002 5:04:00 AM PST by harpseal
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Comment #163 Removed by Moderator

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To: D Joyce
They are a lot of fun and they can drop a coyote without disturbing the neighbors.

Stay well - Stay saf e- Stay armed - Yorktown

165 posted on 03/19/2002 5:32:55 AM PST by harpseal
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To: harpseal;Cap'n Crunch
I also tend to think war. We shall see, unfortunately.

Unfortunate indeed.

The Cap'n is proof not all LEOs forgot their duty, my dad was another before he retired. Much to the dismay of many of the JBT cheerleaders on this board, (who are conspicuous by their absence on this thread BTW), not all cops are interested in serving and protecting. Especially, IMO, Fed LEOs.

FReegards

166 posted on 03/19/2002 5:47:57 AM PST by MileHi
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To: MileHi
On another thread someone said it best. Cap'n Crunch is the sort of LEO who gives the rest a good name. Fortunately there have been a lot like him.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

167 posted on 03/19/2002 6:10:40 AM PST by harpseal
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To: harpseal
Some of my beloved family members are CHP and local PD and they are as appalled at this shooting of unarmed civilians as we are. Braga's last victim "had a loaded weapon nearby", hell that describes me and my whole family at any given time and probably most Freepers.
168 posted on 03/19/2002 6:27:43 AM PST by Howie
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To: Cap'n Crunch
A Fall of the Republic bump
169 posted on 03/19/2002 8:40:57 AM PST by Noumenon
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To: Donald Stone
Yeah, right. Hanson did everything but CC: all of his espionage material to the JE Hoover building, and they turned a blind eye for years. Tough on their own? What a sick joke.
170 posted on 03/19/2002 8:42:40 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: harpseal;D Joyce;Cap'n Crunch;Donald Stone
State and local LEOs are going to me a mixed bag. The drive to follow orders and stay for the pension is VERY strong.

I note that Jewish policemen in the Warsaw Ghetto were so in love with keeping their jobs that they urged Jews to obey all of the Nazi laws, and even led them to the train station.

171 posted on 03/19/2002 8:46:11 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Howie;Noumenon
Bump to my last.
172 posted on 03/19/2002 8:46:57 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Cap'n Crunch
I have great respect for the honesty and candour that you are displaying in this discussion. I want to make an observation about the anonymity policies adhered to by most if not every law enforcement/policing agency in the country, and I'm interested in your views.

I question the policy of these LEAs in withholding names and details of the "bad apples" every time there is an incident. While we know that there are some good apples (not many anymore, unfortunately), anonymity for the bad apples leaves the public in a position where they can only focus their outrage against "an FBI agent", or "an BATF agent". Since public outrage cannot focus on an identifiable individual such as Lon Horiuchi (perhaps rightly so), the entire agency and all of its agents get tarred with the same brush.

So what is the result? Public opinion of all LEOs generally falls, justifiably or not. Good officers are perceived as providing cover and anonymity for the bad.

I notice that in this case, the agents in question were quickly named, but not before the "anonymous officer" damage had been done. I guess they decided it was more important that the shooter take the fall for the FBIs lack of proper training and procedure, than it was to protect him from reprisal.

Am I giving them too much credit, or do you think that the double edged sword of anonymity is a well recognized dynamic within police and law enforcement circles?

173 posted on 03/19/2002 9:31:49 AM PST by Melinator
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Comment #174 Removed by Moderator

To: D Joyce
That's very true. The Jewish policemen in Warsaw who assisted the Nazis had little to fear from their disarmed fellow Jews, and much to fear from their Nazi masters.

In this country, local LEOs who collaborate with any home-grown Gestapo will have MUCH to fear from their local citizenry, who will know their names, faces, and home addresses.

This counterbalance will mean that local LEOs will have to think very hard about which side they are on.

175 posted on 03/19/2002 11:46:02 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: eno_;MileHi;Kermit
Among other technicalities, because the deposits in the bank are insured by the federal government (via FDIC).
176 posted on 03/19/2002 12:10:36 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Melinator
This is a tough one. I'm not sure I can give you the right answer but here are some of my thoughts and things I've seen.

I can understand not printing an officers name for a few days until everything quiets down, but if the paper prints the details of the shooting, the people can read through the lines and determine for themselves if the shooting is righteous or not.

In this particular case I don't believe it is. Another case that comes to mind real quick is the Modesto case where the SWAT officer shot the young boy in the back with the 12 guage. Innocent people are getting killed. I know that with human beings, guns and crime this is always going to happen but it has to be rare, and people need to be held accountable.

I was very relieved to learn that dept.'s are going away from no knock warrants. The risk has to be greater for us, not the public we are supposed to be serving. Our safety is important but it seems we've put our safety above prudence (if that makes any sense)and gone overboard.

I've seen harrasment by the media on police officers that they don't like. That also happens and an officer will get a bad name because someone at the newspaper doesnt like him or someone high up on the dept. doesnt like him.

But ulitmately I think that the people will know, they are smart enough to figure out if the shooting was good or if it was bad. And if it is bad, and the shooter has a history of such things, he needs to be dealt with and things need to be made right immediately; (as much as they can after a tragedy like this) not a circle the wagons mentality "your either for us or against us."

I think in this case the FBI knows they screwed up and they don't know how to admit it and they don't know what to do about it.

177 posted on 03/19/2002 12:24:06 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Travis McGee
This might sound tin foil hattish also but I firmly believe that next time it will be Christians that will be singled out along with various other groups that don't go along with the program.
178 posted on 03/19/2002 12:28:36 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
I think the final outcome will be tons of taxpayers money for Schultz to keep him happy and quiet, and no punishment for Braga, just a "we'll review our SOPs" kind of thing saying that as it happened, Braga was staying within his guidelines of self protection, ie Shultz' "sudden move" to his seatbelt.
179 posted on 03/19/2002 1:05:16 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
I live in the area in Southeast Florida approx. 135 miles that stretches between Vero Beach,FL. south to Miami adjacent I-95 where certain of the 9/11 terrorist (Atta and others) were training for the 9/11 attacks.

I've had dealings with the two FBI field offices in this area where the terrorist were training so it wouldn't surprise me if the 9/11 terrorist told the FBI what they were going to do on 9/11 and the insular arrogant agents at either of these FBI offices probably just laughed at the terrorist and hung up the phone.

180 posted on 03/19/2002 1:18:10 PM PST by Donald Stone
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To: Donald Stone
"Famous, But Incompetent"

The FBI has always put most its efforts into self promotion and PR.

181 posted on 03/19/2002 2:22:26 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Lloyd227
To those not 'in the know' regarding this case ... please search back and inform yourself of ALL the details. They certainly are not in this Sun article. I do want to congratulate and praise the Sun however, for being the ONLY paper willing to cover this pivotal tradgedy involving another bunch of FBI cowboys nearly killing an innocent kid.

I'm afraid someone or something IS leaning on the Sun however to nudge this event towards the FBI's sanitized version of what happened. The sickening details in earlier stories are suspiciously absent.

182 posted on 03/19/2002 2:40:47 PM PST by mercy
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To: Travis McGee
"Famous, But Incompetent"

For many years I thought it was only incompetence, but based on my personal experience over the past 8/9 years I know now it is simply corruption to the core,especially in the presence of political and/or public corruption.

FBI agents remind me of con-men, only type of person that can con you is somebody you trust,(confidence man).

183 posted on 03/19/2002 2:58:30 PM PST by Donald Stone
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To: Melinator
If you go back and read some of the earlier articles the FBI was claiming it was FBI policy not to disclose the name of the shooter this went on for a couple of days and then eventually the FIB did disclose the name of the shooter.
184 posted on 03/19/2002 3:01:49 PM PST by Donald Stone
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To: Donald Stone
Did you read about the scandal which was reported last summer where FBI supergrades and SES's met at Quantico for an "ethics seminar" which was the cover for a blow out series of humongous govt paid going away parties for high FBI officials?

I think most of the corruption tends to concentrate at the top through a deliberate process of distillation, whereby the corrupt SES's control 100% the promotion into their ranks, and can deep select only those corrupt sycophants who will "play ball their way".

This has led to great demoralization among the critical middle grades, who get out in droves, leaving the FBI composed of "fast track" butt boys, corrupt seniors, disillusioned middle grades, and inexperienced gung ho new guys.

Are you familiar with the FBI's "Senior Executive Service", the "Super supergrades"? This clique and it's inner politics is a crucial part of my novel, as a passed over and locked out Deputy Asst Director comes up with his own plan to promote his own unit and himself in an effort to bypass his promotion lockout by the SES. He initiates a series of false flag acts of "domestic terrorism" blamed on "right wing militias" for which he holds "the antidote" in the form of his own experimental ATF SRT unit. I have posted two chapter excerpts, "The Raid" and "The Checkpoint". Perhaps you can help me later on in vetting the SES jargon, terminolgy and structure.

185 posted on 03/19/2002 4:50:06 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
I believe you are right. (#179)
186 posted on 03/19/2002 5:23:13 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Travis McGee
I am familiar with that little scandal the FBI pulled in Quantico.

There was another FBI scandal in South Florida recently where a drunk off duty FBI agent was driving the wrong way on I-95 and killed two brothers in a crash and then the FBI tried to cover it up and blame the crash on the two dead brothers,and when the FL. Highway Patrol (FHP) went to question the FBI agent in the hospital the FBI posted an agent outside his door and wouldn't let the FHP talk to him.

Eventually the FHP figured out what really happened and FL. Gov. Bush made the FHP apologize to the family of the dead brothers, but to this day the FBI has never offered an apology to the family.

Basically what you are saying is true,corruption at the FBI or DOJ is simply a career opportunity.

At the FBI the more corrupt you are,the more rapid your promotion, because the politicians know that they can depend on you to conceal,promote,and facilitate any type of criminal activity that they (politicians and/or lawyers)and their cronies in the private sector want to engage in.

The most politically powerful and corrupt are the U.S. Attorneys, far more powerful than any FBI agent.

Control the U.S. Attorneys and you control who gets prosecuted for federal felony offenses.

This is what the former U.S. Attorney for Maryland, Lynne Battaglia was clearly up to.

The FBI agents know what this is all about,if you don't like the corruption at the FBI you have two simple options, shut up or quit.

I'm not up to speed on the FBI employees that you mention "the Senior Executive Service".

My dealings have been mostly with SAC & SA.

I started dealing with the FBI as far back as mid to late 1994 and here it is 2002 and it really doesn't surprise me that the FBI Anti-terrorist unit and the FBI Public Corruption Units are absolute failures.

187 posted on 03/19/2002 5:49:33 PM PST by Donald Stone
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To: Lloyd227
Bump
188 posted on 03/19/2002 6:04:57 PM PST by yarddog
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To: Lloyd227
FIB-ER bumbp.
189 posted on 03/19/2002 6:31:55 PM PST by Spirited
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To: Donald Stone
What a dismal picture.

But unfortunately it comports 100% with the worst tendencies ingrained in human nature when it comes to the abuse of power.

190 posted on 03/20/2002 5:59:50 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Lloyd227
BTTT
191 posted on 03/20/2002 6:02:12 AM PST by Unicorn
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To: Lloyd227
BTTT
192 posted on 03/20/2002 6:02:13 AM PST by Unicorn
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To: Donald Stone
Yeah, I noticed. I also noticed that as soon as the heat got turned up, they hung their boy out to deflect attention from themselves.
193 posted on 03/20/2002 8:05:27 AM PST by Melinator
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To: Lloyd227
I can't find any current coverage of this shooting. Bump this story since we need to keep this in the public eye. Cheers
194 posted on 03/20/2002 6:57:19 PM PST by Lloyd227
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To: Lloyd227
300 Weatherby bump
195 posted on 03/21/2002 6:32:49 AM PST by Howie
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To: D Joyce
I note that Jewish policemen in the Warsaw Ghetto were so in love with keeping their jobs that they urged Jews to obey all of the Nazi laws, and even led them to the train station.

That bears repeating.

Yep, because it's absolutely true. Those who aid and abet will discover that their lives will be 'nasty, brutish and short.'

Christopher Braga bump.

196 posted on 03/21/2002 1:59:20 PM PST by Noumenon
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To: Noumenon
Christopher Braga bump"

and another bump, remember the name, and list this one in the hall of shame.

197 posted on 03/23/2002 8:12:54 PM PST by Lloyd227
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To: Lloyd227
One more for the good times?
198 posted on 03/24/2002 7:41:16 PM PST by Howie
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To: sneakypete
Not anymore.
Now one has only to enjoy hurting people who cannot fight back.
One needs to be incapable of telling the truth.
One has only to ejoy the sounds of bones being broken and whatching someone's head explode as a bullet hits.

As for honor, the fbi agents that have been arrested for spying speak for themselves.

199 posted on 03/24/2002 8:07:08 PM PST by sport
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To: D Joyce
Just catching up here after a week out of town. Thanks, I stand corrected. I recall the matter of Kennedy issuing the "U.S. Notes" as his attempt to regain control of the currency shortly before his assassination.
200 posted on 03/26/2002 3:33:42 AM PST by Dukie
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