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The Scout, the suspect and the SWAT team Shooting:
Baltimore Sun ^ | 18 March 2002 | Gail Gibson, Michael James and Laura Barnhardt

Posted on 03/18/2002 3:06:32 AM PST by Lloyd227

Edited on 09/03/2002 4:50:07 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

click here to read article


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To: sneakypete
It's no wonder that this keeps happening when they are never called to account.

Letting these State Security goons continually get away with this sends the clear signal to them that The State considers their good work to be so incredibly vital that a few dead peasants are less important than keeping them on hair triggers.

This will go on until they are punished, or until Rule 308 is applied.

51 posted on 03/18/2002 8:13:37 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: harpseal
The FBI says this is a good shooting? Heads need to roll. This is about a clownish example of a felony car stop that I have ever seen in my life.

To the FBI: Do you have any clue how to make a felony traffic stop?

The agent shot the kid THROUGH THE GLASS of the car. He was in no danger.

When I went to a law enforcement sniper school we were informed that tests had been done shooting through glass, from the inside, or near the glass, to a target on the outside. After the round hits the glass there is no telling where it will go, the shot will be very inaccurate.

I can't believe they figured the robber was known to have BB guns and screwed up what should have been a BASIC felony car stop and shot this poor kid in the face. I wonder at what point the agent felt his life was in danger.

You fella's screwed up big time and need to own up to it.

52 posted on 03/18/2002 8:15:40 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: yarddog
Obviously the FBI considers itself to be so far above mere peasants that they can shoot them for making "sudden movements".

This tells me that they consider their lives and "mission" to be worth more than our worthless lives.

The always to be dreaded National Police is here, and anyone who can't see it is delusional.

53 posted on 03/18/2002 8:17:35 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Oh, wait a minute, I do remember another circus traffic stop, they made a movie about it: "The Miami shoot out", or "How not to make a felony traffic stop, starring the FBI"

Seems we havent learned much.

54 posted on 03/18/2002 8:18:23 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Fred Mertz
Based upon this latest incident, the only thing left to do is to evade such a stop long enough to gain access to your weaponry and then dispatch as many of these thugs as possible before they get to you.
55 posted on 03/18/2002 8:19:26 AM PST by Noumenon
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To: harpseal
I doubt the FBI could understand Schultz' pleas, since he was speaking through a shattered jaw and blasted sinuses full of blood.

Not that they cared.

They probably thought it was funny, his girlfriend crying and all.

Rule 308

56 posted on 03/18/2002 8:20:58 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Cap'n Crunch
As I remember that fiasco, they had all their real serious weapons stolen from the unlocked car while they were in a resturaunt flirting with some waitress just before the encounter.


57 posted on 03/18/2002 8:24:31 AM PST by Howie
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To: Lloyd227
bttt
58 posted on 03/18/2002 8:27:37 AM PST by SuperLuminal
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To: Howie

"Vaterland Sekuritat"

ES IST VERBOTEN, STAAT SEKURITAT ZU KRITISIEREN!

59 posted on 03/18/2002 8:34:49 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
Screw 'em! I'm as ready for 'em as I am gonna get!
60 posted on 03/18/2002 8:41:06 AM PST by Howie
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To: Cap'n Crunch
I wonder at what point the agent felt his life was in danger.

My guess is that the agent didn't feel that his life was in danger, but he just enjoys shooting people. Apparently this isn't the first time that this dickhead has shot someone.

61 posted on 03/18/2002 8:41:50 AM PST by from occupied ga
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To: Travis McGee
Am I the only one who feels this way?: the airport "security", cockpit "security", homeland "security" all looks like a lot of smoke and mirrors for sheep to me.
62 posted on 03/18/2002 8:43:56 AM PST by Howie
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To: Cap'n Crunch
The failure to use the proper felony stop procedure is IMHO the essentail ommission of due care that causes this entire action to escalate into criminal negligence that fits the reckless endangerment law. Some years back the FBI lost a few agents in the Miami shootout (platt Matix is the name that comes to mind by I could very well be corrected on this). supposedly after this incident the Felony stop became SOP for FBI agents.

Now on to todays revalation that the informant arrived on the scene of the shooting without paramedics there administering to the wounded civilian. Fromn prior stories we know the paramedics were summoned at 6:12 PM and arrived at 6:15PM. The several minutes for the informant to arrive on scene is time where the agents could have called for paramedics and an ambulance. We know there were four agents on the scene and two people in the car that had been stopped. what would happen to an officer in your department who delayed calling for medical assistance when a suspect had been shot? In most of the local PD's I know of that officer would be hanging by a very tender part of his anatomy. I do know from Mrs. Harpseals former employment with the Department of Corrections that delaying emergency treatment can be grounds for letting a perp walk and for prosecution of the officers involved. In short every agent on scene has "Sc*wed the Pooch repeatedly on this one." They did it so big time that the acts were criminal in nature. Now the automobile safety glass between the agent and the person he shot not only reduces the threat to the agent it increases the danger to the young lady driving showing agent Braga to be even more reckless.

Stay well - Stay safe- stay armed - Yorktown

63 posted on 03/18/2002 8:49:31 AM PST by harpseal
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To: Kermit
Why are bank robberies federal crimes

Interesting question.

(1)The bank may be federally chartered

(2)The bank is required to have federal deposit insurance

(3)The stolen property - Federal reserve notes

More than the federal camel's nose is certainly inside the bank's tent, isn't it ?

64 posted on 03/18/2002 8:50:46 AM PST by Dukie
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To: from occupied ga
Gestapo goons like this "pray for war" maniac Braga spend hours and hours of quiet time thinking up scenarios where they can pull the trigger and get it called a "clean shoot".

This includes keeping a .25ACP in a baggie for those cases where the dead perp was unarmed.

65 posted on 03/18/2002 8:51:15 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Howie
It all boils down to "State Security", and the security is meant for The State, not for the peasants.
66 posted on 03/18/2002 8:53:09 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
Hey I think the whole town should be very thankful that the FBI has not equipped agent Braga with a tactical nuke

yet.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

67 posted on 03/18/2002 8:55:12 AM PST by harpseal
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To: Travis McGee
Gestapo goons like this "pray for war" maniac Braga spend hours and hours of quiet time thinking up scenarios where they can pull the trigger and get it called a "clean shoot".

Yes, and until some of them get some serious jail time (or something worse) to show that there are consequences to just shooting peasants for fun it's going to continue to get worse.

68 posted on 03/18/2002 8:57:06 AM PST by from occupied ga
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To: Lloyd227
My Uncle Bob was a 30 year veteran of a police force in suburban Cleveland. He was best man at my wedding 40 years ago. He served in an era when MOST cops embodied the now frequently hollow motto emblazoned on patrol cars all over this country: “TO PROTECT AND SERVE.”

The last years of his career were spent as the Chief Juvenile Detective in his department. When he died, a number of the young men whose lives he’d touched years before came forward to tell how his timely and sometimes tough-love intervention turned them around.

I know that many officers STILL try to live that creed today. I also know that there are officers out there who, despite the rulings by the Supremes that they have no obligation to specific, individual citizens, would stand between one of us and a bullet – and have.

My sister is married to a good guy – who was also a good cop.

And I STILL vividly recall a business trip and having a flat tire. I pulled onto the narrow shoulder and was opening the trunk when I spied a Georgia State Trooper’s car cross the median, hit the flashers and pull in some distance behind me and a bit closer to the road, shielding me and my car from the 70 MPH traffic. SHE got out and asked if I needed any help. I told her I could probably handle it. She said she’d keep her unit there until I got done.

THEN she spotted my cane and saw that I was partially disabled. Before I could object, she was in the trunk, had wrestled the spare to the ground and was jacking up the car, all the while asking me to remain safely near the guard rail. About that time, two county deputies stopped and pitched in. The lady trooper cut her hand fooling with the jack and soiled her freshly pressed uniform wrestling the dirty flat back into the trunk. They couldn’t have been nicer! I took their names and wrote highly complimentary letters to their superiors – all of whom promptly acknowledged them and thanked me for the kind words.

These officers – like my uncle – grasped the significance of “To Protect and Serve.”

I also recognize that the cops – like Gort in “The Day The Earth Stood Still” -- are simply the muscle (the “enforcement”) behind the legislative and statutory “law” enacted by society as a whole. That is, after all, why it’s called “LAW ENFORCEMENT.” And although it could be argued that this society may be morphing into the homonym for “whole” as you read this, these laws are enacted by our alleged “representatives” meeting in generally safe, quiet and opulent chambers far from the increasingly mean streets where the cops ply their trade. If the cops have too many intrusive and abusive laws to enforce, check the nearest mirror for a likeness of the responsible party.

And if the cops ARE abusive to the general citizenry, why aren’t HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of us RAISING UNHOLY HELL at each and every meeting of the responsible governing body? French political philosopher Joseph D'Maistre declared that "Every people gets the government they deserve."

Have we really become the “nation of sheep” an author foresaw many years ago? If so, we have little right to object to the shearing. Or the coming slaughter and culling of the flock. And my guess is that the culling will begin with the most troublesome and noisiest sheep. And guess who THAT is?

An old friend is a ranking officer with a large police department. I would rate his love of our freedoms and the Constitution against anyone here at FR. A few years ago, he told me that IF the order to begin some sort of weapons round-up among the general citizenry ever came down from “on high,” we would quickly know about it from the reports of disturbances and gunfire from the neighborhood cop shop: Fully HALF the officers in his department are Second Amendment guys. He and they would be the first to resist such an order – physically if necessary. What should scare us all is the shift in our demographics and the continuing leftist indoctrination by the government schools, making it impossible to know how much longer that ratio – and sentiment – will hold.

Having said that, I also recognize that EVERY large barrel contains some bad apples -- and SOME cops are “cowboys.” Some are simply power driven megalomaniacs who would have dropped on the OTHER side of the law had their lives drifted a degree or two off the course they did take.

I believe this to be especially true of far too many federal law enforcement types who have allowed their egos and hubris to become as bloated as the bureaucratic federal behemoth they serve. Their mandate is no longer to “…protect and serve” the citizens who pay their salaries: It is to crush any meaningful resistance to a growing body of procedures, regulations and policies – too frequently enforced under severely tortured interpretations of the underlying legislative enactments (if any) – and often put in place by executive fiat. The massively abused SEIZURE statutes – laws the author of which now seeks to RESCIND! -- spring to mind.

And one cannot but help to wonder how the clear criminality of the Clintons – and their subsequent avoidance of any penalty – has played into the problem. There now seems to be a bright line between the easy, highly flexible, slap-on-the-wrist law for the rich and powerful and the rigidly enforced law against even the tiniest victimless “crimes” committed by those of us further down the food chain. Does anyone in his right mind believe THAT will NOT engender added disrespect for ALL law?

Could those things be a large part of the problem in some of the highly disturbing – and DEADLY (on BOTH sides) – confrontations we have witnessed over the past decade or so? Gordon Kahl, Ruby Ridge, OK City, Waco, Beck -- now Schultz. This list WILL lengthen and we’d all better pray that WE will be spared.

Roman historian Tacitus warned that one could tell the level of corruption in a society by the NUMBER of its laws. Anyone doubt the level of corruption here?

Am I the only one who thinks we’re long overdue a serious review of the NUMBERS of laws under which we are now forced to exist – and which are increasingly used not to assure our safety or well-being, but to COMMAND AND CONTROL us and KEEP US IN LINE.

Only the most tyrannical and power-crazed members of law enforcement could possibly object to that.

The modern counterparts of my Uncle Bob would not object.

It is THEY, after all, who are most likely to catch that bullet – probably fired by someone who has symbolically screamed to himself “I’M MAD AS HELL AND I’M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE” -- referred to earlier when they sally forth to serve that flimsy warrant or make that bogus arrest.

69 posted on 03/18/2002 8:59:16 AM PST by Dick Bachert
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To: harpseal
Once enough gestapo goons like Braga get promoted up the line, I can absolutely see them taking the decision to drop a daisy cutter on a "right wing militia compound" in Montana as a part of the coming "War On Domestic Terrorism".

Waco didn't bother them much, did it? Why risk any State Security Agents?

70 posted on 03/18/2002 9:03:10 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Dick Bachert,Cap'n Crunch
Just FYI, local county LEOs who have "had it" with the secret gestapo operating in their jurisdiction are some of the heros in my novel.
71 posted on 03/18/2002 9:05:51 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: fogarty
This is not a Marine, because he has NO honor. This guy is hiding behind the FBI

I guess the "Once a Marine, always a Marine" belief has certain exceptions. Lee Harvy Oswald would be one of them.

72 posted on 03/18/2002 9:07:46 AM PST by arm958
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To: Travis McGee
I tell ya what. I thought living like a monk /hermit/saint would keep one out of the rifle sights of these killing teams......But it seems these days you can just be pounced upon at any given moment by mistake. SOP's in these cases SUK !

Stay Safe !

73 posted on 03/18/2002 9:08:38 AM PST by Squantos
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To: harpseal
The failure to prosecute these agents makes the entire FBI suspect and complicit in the attempted murder of an innocent person and that statement is based only upon what the FBI has allowed to be released. If there was anything in the 911 tape that was exculpatory it would be in the public domain already.

That is perhaps the best statement of what is at stake for this land of ours and why it is absolutely imperative for Muller, Ashcroft and the President to make the point that such actions are abominable and totally unacceptible, even in time of war. If they take no action, by their silence they acquiesce and become renegades themselves.

74 posted on 03/18/2002 9:14:10 AM PST by Dukie
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To: Cultural Jihad;Dane; Douglas KC
Scramble, boys! Bootlickers are getting savaged on this thread.

Stand up for your thuggish pals!

Building a Socialist America will take all your efforts!

You've gotta suppost your federal payroll buddies; they CANNOT be in the wrong.

Macht Schnell, Kameraden!!!

75 posted on 03/18/2002 9:17:18 AM PST by headsonpikes
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To: Travis McGee
Travis, Chris Braga is a fine young, 2-notch SWAT. I am recommending that he be immediately seconded to the BATF. They always seem to need aggessive young officers for storming wrong houses, shooting pets, injuring bystanders, and recruiting scumbag informants. Perhaps he could instruct them in firearm safety.

O just BTW, The informant? Who is he? What is his police record? How is he paid? Is he currently under indictment?

76 posted on 03/18/2002 9:23:12 AM PST by Francohio
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To: sneakypete
Braga, 35, is a former Marine captain who was a rifle platoon commander in the Persian Gulf war.

Interesting. Lon Horuichi (Ruby Ridge AND Waco) was a West Point graduate and former Army Infantry Officer. He was also a conservative, family values guy whose children were home schooled. I'll bet Braga is a pretty conservative guy too.

77 posted on 03/18/2002 9:29:23 AM PST by arm958
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To: Lloyd227
...he earned the rank of Star Scout.

I thought he was an Eagle Scout. That's what has been reported all this time. Eagle is two full ranks above Star (with Life Scout being in between).

78 posted on 03/18/2002 9:37:10 AM PST by Darth Sidious
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To: Travis McGee
This will go on until they are punished, or until Rule 308 is applied.

Yes,and any rational person has no choice but to conclude that this will eventually happen. You and I both know people who wouldn't take this type of thing lightly if it were to happen to them or their family members,and these people are perfectly capable of "going hunting",and taking this fight to the "enemy". People who these Feeb punks can't visualize in their worst nightmares,as they are all the unfit rejects of the military who didn't have what it takes to make in in the real "special" units. You don't do this crap to people like that without having to face the consequences. Sooner or later,there are going to be federal agents starting to dissapear,or "die in tragic drive-by shootings".

The sad part is that is jut half of the tragedy. These agents are just "useful tools/fools" of their bosses,who were used to create a situation where the bosses can jusify calling a national emergency,and confiscating guns and nullifying the Bill of Rights in other ways. After all,the "Office of Reich Security" is already in place,along with the so-called "Patriots Act". All they need is a mission to justify their existance. This will provide it for them.

The politicians and the media will be going on a 24/7 rampage about how "dangerous it is to allow these deadly weapons to remain in the hands of these domestic terrorists who are murdering federal agents for no reason at all." The politicians and bureaucrats are happy because they have "played the nuts" perfectly,and were able to create a situation they could exploit. It remains to be seen how happy they will remain when/if some of these same scarey people decide to go after the bosses instead of the slaves. Some will no doubt leap with joy when they hear of one of their opponets getting killed,while serving as a propaganda tool at the same time.

Don't say this can't happen in America,as it already has. This is how the FBI got their start. Sending out hit teams to murder "public enemies" who were robbing banks.

And so it begins,the "American Revolution,Part-2".

79 posted on 03/18/2002 9:39:20 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: Noumenon
Based upon this latest incident, the only thing left to do is to evade such a stop long enough to gain access to your weaponry and then dispatch as many of these thugs as possible before they get to you.

I can tell you one thing for sure,it would be considered to be "risky behavior" to try to stop ME in a unmarked car while not wearing a uniform and pointing a gun at me. you better either bring body bags or a squad car with lights and uniformed officers. I sure as hell ain't stopping and surrendering to anybody else!

80 posted on 03/18/2002 9:44:18 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: Francohio
I think that for his own protection Braga will be moving into Officer Housing at Quantico down the street from Lon Horiuchi.

Maybe he can teach Close Quarter Battle to new FBI SWAT classes alongside Sniper Instructor Horiuchi.

81 posted on 03/18/2002 9:45:57 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: sneakypete
I can't add a thing to your outstanding post except to say that it is exactly the plot of my novel.

I'd better hurry up, before reality overtakes fiction.

82 posted on 03/18/2002 9:49:17 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
This includes keeping a .25ACP in a baggie for those cases where the dead perp was unarmed.

LOL! Well,one thing you will know for certain. If *I* am ever "found dead after a shoot-out with the feds with a 25acp in my hand",it WAS a setup. I'd slap anybody who tried to even give me one. A 6 inch 22LR may be a slightly different story.

83 posted on 03/18/2002 9:49:33 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: sneakypete
PS: Sooner or later "Peasant Schultz'" dad or uncle is going to turn out to be a former you know who who is going to close out his business and go on an "extended vactation in Costa Rica or somewhere" rather vague.

That's when it's going to get interesting.

84 posted on 03/18/2002 9:52:47 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Dick Bachert
EXCELLENT post! Thank you.
85 posted on 03/18/2002 9:55:09 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: headsonpikes
Scramble, boys! Bootlickers are getting savaged on this thread. Stand up for your thuggish pals!

Sorry to disappoint you headson...but the fbi agents were in the wrong and should suffer the consquences...

86 posted on 03/18/2002 9:55:25 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: Dukie
why it is absolutely imperative for Muller, Ashcroft and the President to make the point that such actions are abominable and totally unacceptible

ROFLMAO! If anybody ever calls you a pessimist,just refer them to me and I'll set them straight! Bubba-2 is more concerned about locking up oil contracts with Mexico for his family,as well as creating enough new voters to get his nephew George "The Latino" Bush" elected president of the new North American Union. As for Janet Ashcroft,he's too busy ordering $8,000 blouses for huge aluminum tits.

87 posted on 03/18/2002 10:00:50 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: sneakypete
LOL! Well,one thing you will know for certain. If *I* am ever "found dead after a shoot-out with the feds with a 25acp in my hand",it WAS a setup.

Let me add my name to the list of those for whom a .25acp would be a set up. Clearly you are correct about the consequences when the JBT's take out the wrong kid or when they try to take down the wrong man. Now I frankly admit to being on the wrong side of fifty and overweight but I have seen some FLEA's shoot and I know I can at least hold my own.

The six inch barreled .22LR is a very interesting choice for some types of work. It does not make a whole lot of noise and a greasy .33 slug in the Medula Oblomgata can really make a mess out of someone's day. Likewise a two ounce pistol crossbow bolt from an 80lb pistol crossbow. It can really take care of those backyard pests without waking the whole neighborhood also a point head will penetrate kevlar should that be one's desire.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

88 posted on 03/18/2002 10:19:34 AM PST by harpseal
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To: Noumenon
Based upon this latest incident, the only thing left to do is to evade such a stop long enough to gain access to your weaponry and then dispatch as many of these thugs as possible before they get to you.

Given the nature of Bullet resistant soft body armor I would suggest head or upper thigh pelvic shots with hollowpoint ammunition. fracturing a femur, the pelvis or hitting any of the major arteries there can cause enough severe damage to effectively stop a person. Likewise a shot that disrupts the cerebrum, cerebellum, or the medula is going to definitely stop someone.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

89 posted on 03/18/2002 10:27:01 AM PST by harpseal
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To: sneakypete
He 'pete, I admit that I try to keep a sunny disposition but it the realist in me which inspired that last sentence: If they take no action, by their silence they acquiesce and become renegades themselves. I posted to Travis last week that the term "representative republic" no longer describes America. We have become a "popular aristocracy", or perhaps an "administrative dictatorship" and the constitution merely an impediment to be overcome in the pursuit of agendas unsanctioned by that document.

Best regards to you, pete.

90 posted on 03/18/2002 10:27:46 AM PST by Dukie
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To: harpseal
Did I ever mention how you can take a 6" Ruger SM and a foot of common aluminum tube....

Oh never mind.

91 posted on 03/18/2002 10:32:09 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
That's when it's going to get interesting.

Yup,to quote that famous American,Forrest Gump,"Life is lak a box of chock o lats. You never know what yew are goin' to git when yew bhat into one of them." You never really know for sure who you are dealing with by looking at them until you are close enough to look in their eyes. By then it is too late. You've screwed the pooch,and there is nothing you can do about it but die and hurt a lot before that happens.

92 posted on 03/18/2002 10:35:34 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: Travis McGee
The young Mr. Schultz, although a decorated Boy Scout, is obviously a potential terrorist and got exactly what he deserves. < /extremely offensive sarcasm >
93 posted on 03/18/2002 10:42:01 AM PST by semaj
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To: harpseal
Now I frankly admit to being on the wrong side of fifty and overweight

I will also admit to being a harmless old fat man,who is now officially a "senior citizen" (55) eligable for half-priced breakfasts at Denny's. I've even more than half-crippled now to boot. None of this means I'm going to allow anybody to abuse me,though.

94 posted on 03/18/2002 10:42:43 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: fogarty
"This is not a Marine, because he has NO honor. This guy is hiding behind the FBI - if he had any honor and accountability at all, he would resign and get ready to be accountable for his actions.

Well said. Semper Fi.

95 posted on 03/18/2002 10:45:32 AM PST by semaj
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To: Lloyd227
BTTT
96 posted on 03/18/2002 10:51:20 AM PST by Unicorn
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To: Dukie
We have become a "popular aristocracy", or perhaps an "administrative dictatorship"

A VERY good observation,and I think we are actually both. One hand is washing the other.

and the constitution merely an impediment to be overcome in the pursuit of agendas unsanctioned by that document.

Don't worry about that little detail. Bubba Bush is going to take care of that,most rickety-tick! After all,he is a "compasionate conservative". Best regards to you, pete.

Thanks,and right back atcha.

97 posted on 03/18/2002 10:57:37 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: Lloyd227;from occupied ga
His name is Christopher Braga

His Supervisor's name is Dave Midura(if Braga is from the FBI field office in Annapolis,MD).

Lynne A. Hunt is head of FBI in the State of Maryland.

98 posted on 03/18/2002 11:13:45 AM PST by Donald Stone
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To: sneakypete
Harmless old cripples whose kids are all grown could be the most dangerous critters around.
99 posted on 03/18/2002 11:16:20 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: drjimmy
ref post # 43:
When you hear or see "FDIC" or "FSLIC" with a bank commercial, that means your deposits are insured by the federal government.

The federal government has no money. They have tax dollars. When this plan to "support bad bankers" was first brought to light quite a few "good" bankers got out of the business. But the government schools don't teach the facts just the propaganda. Another instance in this country of non value-producers being supported by the value-producers. And heaven forbid you question "central banking" or "paper currency". Everything that was predicted to happen under these and things like the "New Deal" of fdr's aren't taught in government schools so the sheeple don't realize most of the economic and moral problems of today were not only predicted but documented. Of course it requires one to read a variety of books and be able to integrate thought.
100 posted on 03/18/2002 11:17:17 AM PST by BabsC
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