Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Owl data knowingly faulty
The Washington Times ^ | March 14, 2002 | Audrey Hudson

Posted on 03/18/2002 6:44:48 AM PST by madfly

Edited on 07/12/2004 3:52:07 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Forest Service officials knowingly used faulty data of spotted owl habitat to block logging in a California forest, according to court documents obtained by The Washington Times.

The Forest Service did not have a "rational basis" for halting the timber sale to Wetsel-Oviatt Lumber Company, said the previously undisclosed ruling by Federal Claims Court Judge Lawrence S. Margolis.


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: environment; esa; spottedowl
The House Resources Committee is holding a series of hearings on the misuse of science in enforcing the Endangered Species Act (ESA). On March 20, the committee will review legislation to amend the act.

I am searching to find who is on House Resources Committee. Please ping interested lists.

thanks

1 posted on 03/18/2002 6:44:48 AM PST by madfly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: marsh2; dixiechick2000; Mama_Bear; poet; Grampa Dave; doug from upland; WolfsView; Issaquahking...
ping
2 posted on 03/18/2002 6:46:33 AM PST by madfly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: madfly
Previously posted here.
3 posted on 03/18/2002 6:51:22 AM PST by Carry_Okie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: madfly
If all the spotted owls died and one farm or ranch was saved it would be worth it.Or if 1 job was saved for that matter

The truth is the owls will adapt to whatever happens

4 posted on 03/18/2002 6:52:54 AM PST by Pete53
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pete53
The truth is the owls will adapt to whatever happens

Exactly- one of the biofrauds we have here is the Red Cockaded Woodpecker.... according to eco-mythology, the poor little bird can only live in old-growth forests, so we aren't supposed to cut trees.

In fact, the birds are common here inside the city limits- I see the dern things all the time in my yard- and seem to be quite happy in any tree.

5 posted on 03/18/2002 7:02:44 AM PST by backhoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: madfly
Previously, a government witness and leading expert on the California spotted owl, Gerry Verner, testified the study was sound. "I came away with the strong impression that it was, in fact, within my gestalt notion of what suitable nesting habitat is after having walked through dozens of places like this throughout the Sierra Nevada and in other parts of the owl's distribution throughout the West," Mr. Verner said.

Mr. Verner must have taken a course in Spotted Owl Psychology 101, or himself nested in trees, to come up with a statement like this. Junk science, indeed!!

6 posted on 03/18/2002 7:03:01 AM PST by CedarDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: madfly
Thanks for the ping. A good site to track what the green machine is doing to harm America is Here. Reason being is these people's existence depends on being able to blow the foolish greens out of the water!
7 posted on 03/18/2002 7:17:24 AM PST by Issaquahking
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Carry_Okie
I did a case sensitive search of Title and Author, oh well.
8 posted on 03/18/2002 7:22:55 AM PST by madfly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: madfly
The House Resources Committee:

Repubs: Chairman James Hansen, UT; Don Young, AK; Billy Tauzin, LA; Jim Saxton, NJ; Elton Gallegly, CA; John Duncan,TN; Joel Hefley,CO; Wayne Gilchrest,MD; Ken Calvert,CA; Scott McInnis,CCO; Rihard Pombo,CA; Barbara Cubin,WY; George Radanovich,; Walter Jones,Jr.,NC; William (Mac) Thornberry,TX; Chris Cannon,UT; John Peterson,PA; Bob Schaffer,CO; Jim Gibbons,NV; Mark Souder,IN; Greg Walden,OR; Mike Simpson,ID; Tom Tancredo,CO; C.L.(Butch) Otter,ID; Tom Osborne,NE; Jeff Flake,AZ; Dennis Rehberg,MT

Dems:Nick Rahall,WV/Ranking: Edward Markey,MA; Dale Kildee,MI; Peter DeFazio,OR; Eni Faleomavaega,AS; Neil Abercrombie,HI; Solomon Ortiz,TX; Frank Pallone,NJ; Calvin Dooley,CA; Robert Underwood,GU; Adam Smith,WA; Donna Christian-Christensen, VI; Ron Kind,WI; Jay Inslee,WA; Grace Napolitano,CA; Tom Udall,NM; Mark Udall,CO; Rush Holt,NJ; James McGovern,MA; Anibal Acevedo-Vila,PR; Hilda Solis,CA; Brad Carson,OK; Betty McColum,MN

Subcommittees

Fisheries Conservation, Wildlife, and Oceans

Repubs: Gilchrest/Chairman, D. Young, Tauzin, Saxton/Vice Chairman, Pombo, W. Jones

Dems: Underwood/Ranking, Faleomavaega, Abercrombie, Ortiz, Pallone

Forests and Forest Health

Repubs: McInnis/Chairman, Duncan, Peterson/Vice Chairman, Souder, Simpson, Tancredo Otter

Dems: Inslee/Ranking, Kildee, T. Udall, M. Udall, Holt, Acevedo-Vila, McCollum

National Parks and Public Lands

Repubs: Hefley/Chairman, Gallegly, Duncan, Gilchrest, Radanovich, W. Jones/Vice Chairman, Thornberry, Cannon, Schaffer, Gibbons, Souder, Simpson

Dems: Christensen/Ranking, Kildee, Faleomavaega, Pallone, T. Udall, M. Udall, Holt, McGovern, Acevedo-Vila, Solis McCollum

9 posted on 03/18/2002 8:24:14 AM PST by DLfromthedesert
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pete53
The truth is the owls will adapt to whatever happens

Is there science to back up this claim?

According to one of the standard ecology textbooks, Charles Kreb's "Ecology", a survey by Bart & Forsman (1992) revealed that the owls were not found in forests which were only 50 - 80 years old and occurred only where old-growth stands were present. Landscapes containing less than 20% old-growth forest rarely supported the species. They also found that much of the protected wilderness of the Pacific Northwest didn't support owls either as these forests were less productive because they occur at higher elevations than much of the old-growth outside of the parks. LaHaye & Gutierrez (1999) found that spotted owls in northern California nested in trees older than 300 years and more than 1.2m in diameter over 80% of the time.

Here's the references for those who want to examine the data:

Krebs C.J.(2001) Ecology: the experimental analysis of distribution and adundance. 5th Ed.

Bart & Forsman (1992) dependence of northern spotted owls on old-growth forest in the western USA. Biological Conservation 62: 95 - 100

LaHaye & Gutierrez (1999)Nest sites and nesting habitat of the northern spotted owl in northern California. Condor: 101: 324 - 330

10 posted on 03/18/2002 8:26:17 AM PST by Youngblood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: DLfromthedesert
Thanks for posting that.
11 posted on 03/18/2002 8:45:25 AM PST by madfly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: patriciaruth, shotabug, Victoria Delsoul, 1stAmendment, TigersEye, Germanflower, The Documentary
ping
12 posted on 03/18/2002 8:52:15 AM PST by madfly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: madfly
Judge Margolis ruled the Forest Service action was "arbitrary, capricious and without rational basis." He also found that the officials knew their findings were faulty when they ordered the sale canceled.

Bump.

13 posted on 03/18/2002 10:53:18 AM PST by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: madfly
You mean the government lies? (sigh) Most people on this website do not believe that. They call all the others conspiracy nuts or some similar name.
14 posted on 03/18/2002 11:14:04 AM PST by Spirited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: madfly
THe owls were always wiser than the jackasses who were pretending to save them.
15 posted on 03/18/2002 12:20:05 PM PST by F.J. Mitchell
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: madfly
bump
16 posted on 03/18/2002 1:59:34 PM PST by Outraged
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: madfly
Thanks for the heads up!
17 posted on 03/18/2002 7:05:21 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: madfly
Same old same stuff, enviros bend science to benefit their agenda. Taxpayer pays for bad science, everybody wins?

EPA rules will not change because of the enviro lobby is so powerful. They will pay off these companys and still keep the laws on the books. Anything to make a tree hugger happy

18 posted on 03/18/2002 7:23:55 PM PST by jdontom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: madfly
Thanks for the flag. I think people who are truly concerned for wildlife and wild places would get more than they want (given they had some reasonable expectations) if they stopped lying to get it. Most rural folks are conservatives politically and few people truly appreciate wildlife and wild lands more than farmers, ranchers and other rural people. But I guess there is an agenda behind the 'green' movement that has nothing to do with appreciation for wildlife or wilderness. The good hearted folks who support wildlife causes need to wake up and realize that they will actually lose all that and more if they continue to back that political agenda. The 'greens' aren't about the environment they're about power and ideology.
19 posted on 03/18/2002 8:09:21 PM PST by TigersEye
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Youngblood
standard ecology textbooks, Charles Kreb's "Ecology", a survey by Bart & Forsman (1992)

The point of this article is that any scientific survey done in the era of political correctness is suspect.

Have you got some scientific paper from pre-1982 that you could cite to back up your possibly correct claim?

20 posted on 03/18/2002 9:53:02 PM PST by patriciaruth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: backhoe
We have pilated woodpeckers, which I am told are also endangered. They are about 15 inches long and tear apart a tree so fast that you would swear it was vandalism. They make a huge mess, tearing chunks of bark and wood from bug infested trees.
21 posted on 03/18/2002 10:00:45 PM PST by Eva
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Eva
Yes, we have a few of those, too ( danged if I can spell it- you say py-lee-ate-ted... ) and they have the weirdest call- like some kind of jungle bird!
22 posted on 03/19/2002 1:03:15 AM PST by backhoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: patriciaruth
The point of this article is that any scientific survey done in the era of political correctness is suspect.

Have you got some scientific paper from pre-1982 that you could cite to back up your possibly correct claim?

What's with "pre-1982"? Did science suddenly get corrupted that year? Do you propose that we dump the last 20 years of wildlife biology research in cases where results cause conflict with human needs? Scientific research is published, complete with materials and methods, to allow people to critically examine and replicate the findings. If you think such surveys are suspect, then go and find out for yourself. I'm sure the scientists and rangers in question would be only too happy to show you. The fact remains that many species have very narrow, specialized habitat requirements, and no amount of political fighting is going to change that. The society in question has to decide if the potential employment is more important than the survival of the species or ecosystem. I'm sure politicians in these areas run on these issues.

I'm not saying that scientific fraud doesn't exist. I'm sure the temptation is there when funding is hard to come by. However, it doesn't do other scientists any favours when the purse strings are tightened and all their honest work is called into question, so I don't subscribe to these vast conspiracies which many here seem to think all scientists are a part of. Besides, once you're exposed as fraudulent, I don't think that you personally are going to have much credibility in future, and science is a very competitive field.

I don't personally have any papers from prior to 1982 (although I could get them in a couple of weeks). The articles I listed will have such references in their bibliographies. An internet search might also help. Many scientists list their publications on their web pages. Such a hot political issue is bound to have important work listed somewhere.

23 posted on 03/19/2002 6:32:44 AM PST by Youngblood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Youngblood
Hey, I've seen lots of citations from the other side that says spotted owls are happily nesting in places other that old growth forests.

And it isn't just habitat and conservation scientific reports that have been bent to serve the grant master, it's in medical research, too, among other fields of study poluted by greed and laziness and dishonesty.

So, tell me how I can access the studies you cited in Biological Conservation and Condor that you feel are well done and I will read them and check their materials and methods, but I'm not going to bother to read a textbook written in the era of political correctness.

I'm in a rural area, and the nearest scientific library that might carry these journals is a three hour drive from here, which is impossible in my present state of health.

P.S. I helped save the condors, as a contributor to the San Diego Zoo, so I care about wildlife, but I am not interested in being hustled by poorly done scientific studies.

24 posted on 03/19/2002 7:32:55 PM PST by patriciaruth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: patriciaruth
The "other" side? Who are they? I ask this because Krebs says "All analyses of the northern spotted owl concur in recognizing that a large part of the remaining old-growth forests in the Pacific Northwest must be preserved if we wish this species to persist". Perhaps you could list the titles and authors of these contrary studies you've seen?

Charles Krebs book is in its fifth edition: the first appeared in 1972. He is one of the most respected and talented ecologists in the world. "Poorly done" studies don't get into a book like this, but I guess, in the eyes of some, he is now tainted by association, just like accountants and priests.

Does your local library have an inter-library loan facility? If so, you should be able to get copies of the papers through them. Or else, look up the journal or authors' web pages and write to the authors for copies.

25 posted on 03/20/2002 3:44:48 AM PST by Youngblood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Youngblood
local library have an inter-library loan facility?

Good suggestion. But probably I'd have more luck with the local hospital. Which makes me wonder if Medscape might carry biology journal articles as well as medical ones.

Thanks. If I see another refutation of your spotted owl hypothesis, I'll ping you. They may all be talking out of their hats as you suspect for all I know.

26 posted on 03/20/2002 9:05:31 PM PST by patriciaruth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson