Old Hoosier Apologizes to Libertarians

Thread from yesterday ^ | 3-26 | TOH

[The Old Hoosier]

Yesterday, I got into an argument with some libertarians. I promised to humiliate myself if they could answer the following question:

If I want to sell myself into slavery in order to pay off debts, why should the government be able to prevent me? Why should I not have every right to enter into an indissoluble contract surrendering my freedom--temporarily or permanently--to someone else in exchange for some consideration?

I hereby admit that I was wrong, because ThomasJefferson agreed that the government should have no power to prohibit voluntary slavery--a step that I did not think any of them would want to take. I hereby eat crow. (Tpaine and Eagle Eye still haven't given direct answers, but I'll mention it here when they do, and eat more crow.)

The relevant part of the long argument we had is here. TJ agrees to voluntary slavery at 374.

[RJCogburn]

I took the question at hand to refer to the relationship of man to government in the ideal, not specifically relating to the US Constitution.

[Roscoe]

Libertarians would support the legalization of peonage, indentured servitude and some other forms of slavery outlawed by our Thirteenth Amendment.

[KC Burke]

One of the problems of looking at "government in the ideal" or in the theoretical sense is that such models are soon deemed worth of application when they have no merit for same. Makes for interesting debate but little else.

I took ol' Burkes statement about the merits are always in the particulars to heart in my analysis. I think both are equally worthy of being included in the thread.

[Protagoras]

Crawl back into your hole you moral midget.

[Roscoe]

Libertarians would support the legalization of peonage, indentured servitude and some other forms of slavery outlawed by our Thirteenth Amendment.

They reject the morality of the 13th Amendment.

[Taliesan]

I, the undersigned, in exchange for $50,000, hereby promise, under penalty of corporal punishment to be administered by the payer (master), to perform all menial tasks he asks me to perform, every day for the remainder of my life. I permanently surrender my right to leave and work for anyone else, unless the payer chooses to dissolve this contract. I understand that this contract cannot be dissolved by me, the undersigned.

Well, I'm not a libertarian, but I wouldn't prevent you from signing it (unless you have children).

Seems like you're selling yourself cheap, but, maybe not.

[Protagoras]

They reject the morality of the 13th Amendment.

Another lie from a world class liar.

They reject immoral buffoons like you.

[Roscoe]

Mr. Justice Miller, delivering the opinion of the majority of the court, after observing that the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth articles of amendment of the constitution were all addressed to the grievances of the negro race, and were designed to remedy them, continued as follows: "We do not say that no one else but the negro can share in this protection. Both the language and spirit of these articles are to have their fair and just weight in any question of construction. Undoubtedly, while negro slavery alone was in the mind of the congress which proposed the thirteenth article, it forbids any other kind of slavery, now or hereafter. If Mexican peonage or the Chinese coolie labor, system shall develop slavery of the Mexican or Chinese race within our territory, this amendment may safely be trusted to make it void.
(169 U.S. 649) UNITED STATES v. WONG KIM ARK. (March 25, 1898)

Contract slavery, such as peonage and indentured servitude, is illegal.

[Melinator]

Graduates of Law School are required to go through the "articling" process and pass a bar exam before being allowed into practice. "Articles of Indentureship" is the formal name for the process. It used to be that Law grads were not even paid during their articles. They are paid now, but considerably less than a lawyer who is licensed to practice before a State Bar.

[js1138]

I understand that this contract cannot be dissolved by me, the undersigned.

Any such contract would not be enforceable in its strictest form. If you violate the terms of a civil contract, you are liable for civil penalties -- namely money. If you break the contract and have no money you could declare bankruptcy.

I believe there is another clause in the Constitution prohibiting imprisonment for debt.

Such contracts are frequently signed by artists and performers -- not lifetime, but it probably seems like it. they are also frequently broken.

[dighton]

I thought it was called marriage?

Marriage, n. The state or condition of a community consisting of a master, a mistress and two slaves, making in all, two.

-- Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.

[Protagoras]

Contract slavery, such as peonage and indentured servitude, is illegal.

And your point to me is???????

[Protagoras]

If Mexican peonage or the Chinese coolie labor, system shall develop slavery of the Mexican or Chinese race within our territory, this amendment may safely be trusted to make it void.

I guess it never did. The contracts that people made with one another were never defined as slavery, either by the participants or anyone else of importance.

(people like you don't count, you're not important)

[Protagoras]

BTW, no one was discussing legality on this thread. It is irrelevant to this conversation. As are you.

[Roscoe]

The contracts that people made with one another were never defined as slavery, either by the participants or anyone else of importance.

Indentured servitude was by contract. It's illegal now.

[AppyPappy]

I think a good case could be made however, questioning the sanity of an individual who would surrender their life and their perpetual labor for $50,000.

So should the government step in or not?

[Taliesan]

So should the government step in or not?

Only for the children.

[KC Burke]

Libertarians would support the legalization of peonage, indentured servitude and some other forms of slavery outlawed by our Thirteenth Amendment

Certainly I am viewed as no adherent to the Libertarian cause but I would say that your characterization is unfair and needlessly contentious.

Libertarians have issues of contract making ability that are central to their political view that are very compatible with a conservative's, or Old Whig's, view of a land of Laws and not of men. A land of limited government with assignment of issues of Order always going to the smallest societal or governmental unit that can deal with it are issues of broad agreement amongst many conservatives of all stripe.

Lastly, both sides are in harmony that Equality-before-the-law is the only true equality that bears on political systems, and no labeling of Libertarians as overly friendly to issues of cash-payment as being central to society would let one envision libertarians promoting schemes of slavery.

[Cogadh na Sith]

I, the undersigned, in exchange for $50,000, hereby promise, under penalty of corporal punishment to be administered by the payer (master), to perform all menial tasks he asks me to perform, every day for the remainder of my life. I permanently surrender my right to leave and work for anyone else, unless the payer chooses to dissolve this contract. I understand that this contract cannot be dissolved by me, the undersigned.

You want to be a 'Personal Assistant' to Rosie O'Donnell?

[Roscoe]

[Libertarians would support the legalization of peonage, indentured servitude and some other forms of slavery outlawed by our Thirteenth Amendment.]

Certainly I am viewed as no adherent to the Libertarian cause but I would say that your characterization is unfair and needlessly contentious.

But it's true.