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THEIR PLAN FOR CHANGE WORKED
Fiedor Report On the News #266 ^ | 3-31-02 | Doug Fiedor

Posted on 03/30/2002 9:34:54 AM PST by forest

NOTE: This was originally written and published back in 1999. Unfortunately, it is still very pertinent.

-----------------------------

What an interesting development this is! Forty-one years after publication, an article titled "Current Communist Goals", which is an excerpt from “The Naked Communist,” written by Cleon Skousen in 1958, is beginning to receive national prominence.

W. Cleon Skousen, we should add, was an FBI agent, the police chief of Salt Lake City and a full professor at Brigham Young University. Skousen was also the head of the National Center for Constitutional Studies and the author of a number of other books and publications. Interestingly enough, the Skousen family is also directly related to Founding Father Benjamin Franklin.

The first time around, this text was generally greeted with snickers and yawns. Much of the text accurately identified things to come. It's just that few in the United States believed it back around 1960. But, Rep. A.S. Herlong, Jr. of Florida believed. And he read part of it into the Congressional Record in 1963, where future Americans would be able to find it.

And find it people have. Because of the good works of Forest Glen Durland, a semi-retired California teacher who realized the historical significance of the piece and posted it on his uhuh.com web site, the text has recently been extensively discussed in a wide variety of forums, from the Dr. Laura national radio program to the FreeRepublic.com web site.

Back in the 1960s, few Americans realized exactly how active the communist operation was in the United States. Now that some of the old KGB records are becoming public, we see that there were massive communist disinformation operations designed to divide the American people and stir the forces of social and political discontent. As we published previously, a handful of communist agitators were actually responsible for instigating many of the riots and anti-Vietnam demonstrations back then.

In fact, the 1958 text's item #19 actually mentions "use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack." And so they did. Quite successfully, too.

"Down with the establishment" is but one memorable chant that had its origin with communist trained agitators. The useful idiots of the drug culture were but one of their tools of disruption back then.

The "Current Communist Goals" text identifies many orchestrated mutations of American society. Most of these changes are so entrenched today that younger Americans actually think that is how our culture was intended to be. That is, some Americans do not fully understand the concept of freedom and liberty. They have been, what was called back then, "fully indoctrinated."

For instance, one communist goal currently under debate in presidential campaign news is item #4 in the "Current Communist Goals" text: "Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war."

Numbers 5, 6 and 7, respectively, call for: "Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites." "Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination." And, "grant recognition of Red China -- admission of Red China to the U.N."

Another item continually in the news is #9: "Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress."

Item #11 has received great discussion on the Internet, even before the text was again discovered: "Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one- world government with its own independent armed forces."

Due to the Clinton administration, #14 catches the eye of most people: "Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office."

Not only did Russia have access to our patent office back then, the Clinton administration recently gave a computerized copy of all American patents to communist China.

Item #15 suggests that the communists "capture one or both of the political parties in the United States." They didn't get both parties. But, as we look at the ever expanding federal bureaucracy, we see that the communist model has captured nearly one and a half of the two major political parties.

The 16th says to "use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights." We see that in many court actions, from civil rights to school desegregation.

Item #17 is where it's at, though. This item was accomplished so well that today's students are completely confused about what the Founding Fathers intended as our rights of life, liberty and property: "Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks."

And so they did.

By the time a careful reader gets down to #20 and #21 they may realize that a very workable plan was described: #20 states: "Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions." #21 rounds it off with: "Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures."

There's more, of course. There are forty-five articles in the plan. Most have been implemented, and that is exactly why there have been so many ominous changes in society these past thirty years. That is also why so many of our freedoms have evaporated.

-----------------------------

See the complete text at: http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

 

 END


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: 007; 1963; 1commygoals; 2complete; 3why; 4who; 5how; 6fromnakedcommy; 7byskousen; byu; cleonskousen; communism; communistgoals; kgb; redchina
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Here's a good question for someone to tackle: The Commy Goals are obviously complete, certainly in Silicone Valley in Saratoga High School, Mona Vista High in Cupertino and Homo High on Homestead Road in Cupertino. But the Soviet Union crumbled. So just who pushed those Commie Goals to completion?
1 posted on 03/30/2002 9:34:55 AM PST by forest
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To: forest
THE AMERICAN COMMUNISTS DID IT.

Doing a great job of it, too. I have had the goals in my purse for years to remind me of what I'm fighting against.

I won't put up with PC in my presence anymore either.

2 posted on 03/30/2002 9:42:50 AM PST by The UnVeiled Lady
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To: forest; INCINDIARY; MERCURIA; ANNAZ; STARFAN; FIREBRAND; DUTCHY; EVILC; CRITTER; NUTMEG; COB1...
IVE BEEN LOOKING FOR THIS LIST!! THANKS!
3 posted on 03/30/2002 9:45:55 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: forest
The 16th says to "use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights." We see that in many court actions, from civil rights to school desegregation.

Awww!
Well will ya look at that.
How dare they desegregate the schools.
Tut, tut, tut.
Those damn desegregationists, pretending to do the right thing when all along they're really just commies bent on world domination.

Can anyone say Pinky and the Brain?

4 posted on 03/30/2002 10:07:44 AM PST by rwb
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To: rwb
Forced integration was accomplished through nullification of rights that no people who want to remain free should ever part with. It's created a gestapo state licensed to subject everyone's to review for evidence of conforming to social servitude.
5 posted on 03/30/2002 10:14:30 AM PST by RLK
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To: billbears;4ConservativeJustices
Ping!
6 posted on 03/30/2002 10:51:15 AM PST by Ff--150
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To: RLK
Forced integration was accomplished through nullification of rights that no people who want to remain free should ever part with.

Well gee RLK, if your "RIGHTS" impinge on those of others, then you forfeit those rights (for example, you don't have the right to shoot someone if you don't like what they're saying).

It's created a gestapo state licensed to subject everyone's to review for evidence of conforming to social servitude.

Well one group of people was already living under Gestapo conditions.

To be quite honest, if people aren't smart enough or enlightened enough to do the right thing, they need to be "bull whipped" into doing it.

That's why the state "forces" every child to have an education, even if some parents may think that "it ain't necessary".
That's why you'll be charged with child abuse/neglect if your kid is sick and you refuse to take him/her to a doctor.

Similarly, as far as the issue of desegregation went, Eisenhower had to "force the red out of some rednecks".
And he didn't give a rodent's posterior if they didn't like it.

7 posted on 03/30/2002 11:06:09 AM PST by rwb
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To: rwb
In free society, no one has the right to force anyone to like anyone. I can dislike whoever I damn well please, for any reason I see fit.
8 posted on 03/30/2002 11:37:22 AM PST by Mortimer Snavely
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To: Ff--150
I was listening to a rebroadcast of David Horowitz from 21 Feb 2002 - he made the comment that 90% of college professors (excepting engineering etc) were decidedly left wing. He even made the comment that a one time theology student swapped majors when the professors told her upfront that the Bible was BS & propaganda. He suggested that once she graduates she sues for false advertising. I know from my own college education that the majority are bleeding heart liberals.
9 posted on 03/30/2002 12:14:11 PM PST by 4CJ
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
David Horowitz knows--as he was a commie himself, before he saw the light hehe. BTW, FF-150 is an ex-hippie :(
10 posted on 03/30/2002 12:56:19 PM PST by Ff--150
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To: rwb
To be quite honest, if people aren't smart enough or enlightened enough to do the right thing, they need to be "bull whipped" into doing it.

--------------------------

You said it all, Adolf. I don't want your "enlightened" kind demanding to control my life.

11 posted on 03/30/2002 5:28:54 PM PST by RLK
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To: Mortimer Snavely
In free society, no one has the right to force anyone to like anyone. I can dislike whoever I damn well please, for any reason I see fit.

No one forced you to like anyone. They just forced you to give everyone else a fair chance at education and life in general.

Oh, and Mortimer, how is a segregated society a free society. That's the flaw in your argument.

12 posted on 03/30/2002 5:47:10 PM PST by rwb
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To: Mortimer Snavely
In free society, no one has the right to force anyone to like anyone. I can dislike whoever I damn well please, for any reason I see fit.

No one forced you to like anyone. They just forced you to give everyone else a fair chance at education and life in general.

Oh, and Mortimer, how is a segregated society a free society. That's the flaw in your argument.

13 posted on 03/30/2002 5:47:48 PM PST by rwb
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To: RLK
You said it all, Adolf. I don't want your "enlightened" kind demanding to control my life.

From your post it seems you don't mind control, as long as you're the one doing the controlling.

14 posted on 03/30/2002 5:50:19 PM PST by rwb
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To: Ff--150
And I've voted for a Dim before, but everyone makes mistakes ;o)
15 posted on 03/30/2002 6:32:50 PM PST by 4CJ
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To: forest
bump
16 posted on 03/30/2002 7:52:11 PM PST by rwb
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To: rwb
When the Government denies people their rights under the Constitution, for whatever reason, a wrong has occured. For example, denying a person access to the voting booth because of things like literacy tests or poll taxes is one example of repression. Enacting laws that deny poor people access to cheap firearms is another.

When people are forced to buy or sell to people they don't like, that is repression too. Forcing people to sell homes, or provide housing, health care, education, or whatever, to whoever, for whatever reason is repression.

There is no right to housing, health care, education, or any other material good or commodity. There is the right to free trade, and that only.

17 posted on 03/30/2002 9:14:34 PM PST by Mortimer Snavely
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To: rwb
It has probably never occurred to you, but freedom or liberty means economic and social interactions occur on a mutually agreed voluntary basis between participating parties. Violation of that principle is a criminal act against freedom and a free society. Forced integration at the implicit point of a gun is a crime against the freedom of people in this nation.

I practice a type of segregation in my own life, and will continue to do so. That is, there are people who I don't want around me because their deficiencies or characteristics are repunant to me and an imposition upon me that I don't want. It is an equal opportunity action that crosses racial lines.

I have no idea what racial or ethnic group to which you belong. But, I can tell you you are a member of the inherently lower classes with whom I want no association, an who I want to have no control over my life. You will always be on the outside looking an among people of any quality or stature. You will always be justifiably rejected by those who are other than your kind. Your only hope of achieving membership in anything is to force yourself upon other people through violation of their rights. It may not be to your liking that people in a free society have a right to reject or separate themselves from other people on a reasonable, or sometimes unreasoned basis. But it is not a right that you granted to anybody. Neither is it a right you have permission to take from other people with you and your friend's "bull whips" as you put it.

Basically, you are aggressively evil and have no respect for the principles of a free society.

18 posted on 03/31/2002 12:52:39 PM PST by RLK
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To: RLK
...but freedom or liberty means economic and social interactions occur on a mutually agreed voluntary basis between participating parties.

Unless the Government says "verboten", then you're outta luck.

19 posted on 03/31/2002 12:59:13 PM PST by Wolfie
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To: Mortimer Snavely
I do agree with your post #17.
20 posted on 03/31/2002 1:03:39 PM PST by rwb
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To: RLK
It has probably never occurred to you, but freedom or liberty means economic and social interactions occur on a mutually agreed voluntary basis between participating parties.

We're not talking about the choice not to interact.
We're talking about the situation where a particular group is forcibly kept down.
Not being allowed access to education (that is available to everyone else) or being intimidated from voting has nothing to do with the right to keep your own company.
From your post history on this thread, I can tell that you are unable to see this.

Violation of that principle is a criminal act against freedom and a free society. Forced integration at the implicit point of a gun is a crime against the freedom of people in this nation.

Forcing public/state schools to accept all citizens is not a violation of your right to be a racist. And, it is not a criminal act.
Also, as I said before, if one group did not have a similar chance at the American Dream, then it was not really a free society, was it? (not a rhetorical question).

I practice a type of segregation in my own life, and will continue to do so.

I can tell.

I have no idea what racial or ethnic group to which you belong. But, I can tell you you are a member of the inherently lower classes with whom I want no association, an who I want to have no control over my life.

Yes, you're right I do belong to a different class than you.
I don't support segregation.

other people through violation of their rights.

Discrimination is not a right.

people in a free society have a right to reject or separate themselves from other people on a reasonable, or sometimes unreasoned basis.

Sure they have that right, but they don't have the right to co-opt state laws to practice that right.

Basically, you are aggressively evil and have no respect for the principles of a free society.

You argue in favor of state-approved segregation and I'm evil?
Have you been to see your psychiatrist lately?

21 posted on 03/31/2002 1:17:57 PM PST by rwb
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To: rwb
Laissez-faire, socialism, anarchism, poll taxes, literacy tests, segregation, forced integration, cross town school bussing, civil rights marches, civil rights legislation, hate crime legisation, spitting on the sidewalk, and I guess everything that has mass and occupies space that has a label stuck on it has congealed itself into some weird, undifferentiated, unarticulated grand amalgam for you. I have serious reason to believe that you really don't know what you're talking about here.
22 posted on 03/31/2002 2:32:43 PM PST by Mortimer Snavely
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To: rwb
To be quite honest, if people aren't smart enough or enlightened enough to do the right thing, they need to be "bull whipped" into doing it.

I volunteer you to be first in line.

23 posted on 03/31/2002 2:58:58 PM PST by Teacher317
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To: rwb
Discrimination is not a right.

And yet you espouse its virtues in post #7, "To be quite honest, if people aren't smart enough or enlightened enough to do the right thing, they need to be "bull whipped" into doing it." You must discriminate between those who 'aren't smart enough' and those who are. Then, in post #21, ("Yes, you're right I do belong to a different class than you"), you make a discrimination between yourself and RLK. Are you violating his rights with your discrimination?

One other exception I must take from your posts... you wrote, "Forcing public/state schools to accept all citizens is not a violation of your right to be a racist. And, it is not a criminal act. Also, as I said before, if one group did not have a similar chance at the American Dream, then it was not really a free society, was it? (not a rhetorical question)." How can you say that we are a free society, when you are "FORCING" acceptance? The real problem is that the state mandates education at all (the bull-whipping "for our own good" that you hold so dearly.... yet another aspect of 'free society'?). Free citizens do not owe the state ANY level of educational knowledge or ability. The Constitution does not say anything about mandating education... but the Tenth Plank of the Communist Manifesto surely does. Do you not see any glaring contradictions there? You start from the false premise that 'free citizens' must be bull-whipped into giving up their children to the state for one-third of their waking hours... then you state that (since they are forced into these schools) they cannot freely choose whom their children might associate with (or not) within that system. Do you seriously believe that you are espousing Freedom with these statements?!?

(Of course, desegregation was a decent solution for an explicit wrong (separate and unequal), but that does not mean that it made the system a workable part of a free society. The system itself was already fatally flawed when it was changed to the Communist model of compulsory, state-provided, and 'free' education.)

24 posted on 03/31/2002 3:21:16 PM PST by Teacher317
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To: Teacher317
I volunteer you to be first in line.

Fine.
As long as I can volunteer you right back.

25 posted on 03/31/2002 7:42:08 PM PST by rwb
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To: Teacher317
And yet you espouse its virtues in post #7, "To be quite honest, if people aren't smart enough or enlightened enough to do the right thing, they need to be "bull whipped" into doing it." You must discriminate between those who 'aren't smart enough' and those who are.

What's the matter?
Can't you tell the moral difference (for example) between a murderer and an emergency-room doctor?

Then, in post #21, ("Yes, you're right I do belong to a different class than you"), you make a discrimination between yourself and RLK. Are you violating his rights with your discrimination?

Only if I ask my congressman to sponsor a bill that would squash RLK's rights just because I don't like him. (Thank you for helping make my point).

One other exception I must take from your posts...
How can you say that we are a free society, when you are "FORCING" acceptance?

First of all, I was talking specifically about the 50's.
Secondly, I never said that society in the 50's was free.

The real problem is that the state mandates education at all (the bull-whipping "for our own good" that you hold so dearly.... yet another aspect of 'free society'?).

You have a problem with having an educated population?
I bet you want hispanic immigrants to be able to read and write in English, even if they can in Spanish.

Free citizens do not owe the state ANY level of educational knowledge or ability. The Constitution does not say anything about mandating education...

Not explicitly, no.
But how're you gonna make sense of your yearly tax forms, apply for credit cards or loans, or vote if you can't make out what the ballot says?

but the Tenth Plank of the Communist Manifesto surely does.

Unsuprisingly, you seem to be more familiar with totalitarian ideology than I am, so I'll take your word for it.

Do you not see any glaring contradictions there? You start from the false premise that 'free citizens' must be bull-whipped

I said nothing about 'free citizens'.
I was talking about stupid rednecks, with backward ideas (see my Murderer/ER Doctor analogy above).

into giving up their children to the state for one-third of their waking hours...

I believe home-schooling is allowed.

then you state that (since they are forced into these schools) they cannot freely choose whom their children might associate with (or not) within that system.

You're saying that because they're being forced into desegregated schools, they are (as a side-effect) being forced to associate with people they don't want to associate with.
I can't argue with that.

Do you seriously believe that you are espousing Freedom with these statements?!?

Do you seriously believe that you are espousing Freedom by supporting legally-enforced segregation?

My sympathies.
The last 40 or so years must have been a real b!+c# for you.

(Of course, desegregation was a decent solution for an explicit wrong (separate and unequal), but that does not mean that it made the system a workable part of a free society. The system itself was already fatally flawed when it was changed to the Communist model of compulsory, state-provided, and 'free' education.)

Free education, was the quickest and practical way to obtain a largely literate, and educated population.
It has nothing to do with communism or any particular ideology.
You think we live in heaven, where everybody holds hands and loves one another?
If the "free citizens" (as you like to call them) could barely read or write, then they wouldn't be free for long, cuz the Russians or Chinese (who by the way do and did have mandatory education) would have developed better technology and would have beaten everybody else over the head.
That's an argument you can't argue with !

26 posted on 03/31/2002 8:29:18 PM PST by rwb
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To: rwb
What you are trying to do is frame the issue in a type of deceptive blandness.

When the government comes in to take people's children and bus them miles into a school dominated by Jesse Jackson Al Sharpton, rap music type values to mix the races by force, it a criminal act against those parents and those children. This is the type of degenerate environment intelligent parents attempt to insulate their kids from.

When the leftist government comes in to my business and forces me to hire various proportions of people agains my will, it's an intrusion into my life and a a crime against my freedom.

Got it, goof with the bull whip?

27 posted on 03/31/2002 8:45:20 PM PST by RLK
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To: RLK
Well then maybe you should be expending your energies into improving the situation and "environment" in the schools.
28 posted on 03/31/2002 8:55:46 PM PST by rwb
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To: RLK
Oh, and by the way, when desegregation was first ordered, there was no Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or rap music type values. So that can't be the reason you're against desegregation.
29 posted on 03/31/2002 8:59:00 PM PST by rwb
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To: rwb
I volunteer you to be first in line.

rwb: Fine. As long as I can volunteer you right back. (with my bull whip. )

-------------------

Bold talk for a loudmouth safely hundreds or thousands of miles away.

What has happened in the past is I post whoever it is an invitation to meet me near my place where bodies are easily disposable and bring something to fill their hand with. Then the moderator here threatens to ban me. I've also had the local sheriff's department admonish me about sending people on the long trip. This time, as a demonstration of personal reformation, I'm not going to take the bait. Instead I'm going to show the world I've truly reformed. So...

Have a nice day rwb from hundreds or thousands of miles away, and for both our good, please stay there.

Wasn't that sweet? See, I've changed my ways.

30 posted on 03/31/2002 9:00:34 PM PST by RLK
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To: rwb
Well then maybe you should be expending your energies into improving the situation and "environment" in the schools.

---------------------

It isn't the schools that need improving. It's the people and subculture at the schools that wear degeneracy as it it were a Nobel Prize and are recalcitrant to change.

31 posted on 03/31/2002 9:05:43 PM PST by RLK
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To: RLK
It isn't the schools that need improving. It's the people and subculture at the schools that wear degeneracy as it it were a Nobel Prize and are recalcitrant to change.

See, when you actually say something reasonable, I agree with you.
However, the people and subculture are part of the school.

32 posted on 03/31/2002 9:14:49 PM PST by rwb
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To: rwb
Oh, and by the way, when desegregation was first ordered, there was no Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or rap music type values. So that can't be the reason you're against desegregation.

----------------------------------

The exact characters weren't there, but the equivalent was. Martin Luther King was in bed with two women other than his wife a few hours just before he was killed. That's according to Ralf Abernathy. Same scene, trash, different name. What was to happen was obviously visible on the horizon. You can't see the fundamental trashiness and degeneracy, let alone object to it, because you are part of it.

33 posted on 03/31/2002 9:14:54 PM PST by RLK
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To: rwb
Have a nice night. I have other tasks to attend to.
34 posted on 03/31/2002 9:16:20 PM PST by RLK
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To: RLK
I volunteer you to be first in line.

rwb: Fine. As long as I can volunteer you right back. (with my bull whip. )

Make it a habit of assigning to people, sentences that they didn't say?
Do you doctor photographs and plant evidence too?

Bold talk for a loudmouth safely hundreds or thousands of miles away.

I can say the same about you.

35 posted on 03/31/2002 9:20:15 PM PST by rwb
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To: forest
THESE COMMIE GOALS were among the more sobering things I read 35 years ago in my job as acting director of the Special Collections of the University library--one of 2 in the U.S. which collected extreme left materials right across to extreme right materials.

When I cheekily muttered disparaging remarks about the quality of the stuff to my boss, he exhorted me rather firmly. He collected rare posters, pamphlets and other ephemera from pre WWI and pre WWII Germany. He had a mother-in-law in East Berlin at the time of our working together. He noted that it was the flakey organizations and flakey publications which MOST ACCURATELY AND EARLIEST PREDICTED HITLER'S VALUES AND ACTIONS TO COME.

Certainly not all the rantings of such groups are gospel. However, there are threads of import for those wise and diligent enough to ferret them out.

I'm increasingly convinced that the truth is readily available for most interested in seeking THE TRUTH out.

I'm increasingly convinced that it's not the lack of truth being available that's the problem--as usual--it is the heart of man. Some of us are not the least bit interested in the truth. Some just want to do what they want to do; when they want to do it; the way they want to do it--and to blazes with any detractors.

My reading of reality is that God will allow them the destination of their choosing--AWAY from HIM. In between time, they will plague the planet and those of us more interested in sanity, a healthy society and a genuine relationship with Almighty, Loving God.

The old "if it feels good, do it--as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" mantra is an ignorant rationalization for those hell-bent on various forms of mental, personal, social and physical masturbation--whether by hand or using various handy victims. They want to talk about interdependence only as it relates to their getting someone else's goodies at little expense or responsibility to themselves. The idea of restraint or "NO!" is anathama to them.

We now have the society they strove for so energetically--where only the insane are sane in Eric Fromm's words. In due course they will discover what reaping the whirlwind entails. Until then, they are a plague on us all. . . . as too much of what's in them is also in the person in our mirrors. The pollution is extreme and pervasive.

Only The Blood of Jesus washes it away. But He can't be one's Savior without being one's Lord. And for too many, there's the very unorgasmic rub.

They know little to nothing of FREEDOM IN RESPONSIBILITY; Joys unwordable in submission to the TRUE LIBERATOR [from death, the world and the devil]; PEACE that passes understanding in the midst of raging war crossfires; True Serenity in the face of monster quakes, volcanos, meteors and ET's that go bump, thump, probe & extract in the night.

The dark is getting darker. The Light is getting brighter. Choosing not to choose will be increasingly seen as a stupid, wimped-out, deadly choice. In one Scripture passage, "cowards" are among the murderers, homosexuals et al rejected of God.

At some point, the greased slides will have deposited their charges in the eternal cesspool. Choice will no longer be much of an option. The reaping will have occurred. And the chaff will have been incinerated.

Until then, one is wise to prayerfully consider the evidence--and learn to walk humbly with brokenness and contrition hand in hand with The True and Eternal King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

36 posted on 03/31/2002 9:27:14 PM PST by Quix
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To: RLK
The exact characters weren't there, but the equivalent was. Martin Luther King was in bed with two women other than his wife a few hours just before he was killed.

Thomas Jefferson had kids with his slaves.

Oh! And then there's:

King David and King Solomon
Led merry, merry lives,
With many, many lady friends
And many, many wives;
But when old age crept over them,
With many, many qualms,
King Solomon wrote the Proverbs
And King David wrote the Psalms.

Flawed people can have good ideas too, and that's not according to Ralf Abernathy.

37 posted on 03/31/2002 9:28:39 PM PST by rwb
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To: Quix
FREEDOM IN RESPONSIBILITY

Dead on.
Freedom without responsibility, results in anarchy and abuse.

38 posted on 03/31/2002 9:32:22 PM PST by rwb
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To: RLK;rwb
It isn't the schools that need improving.

You dispose of your strongest argument here. It is well-documented that the public schools were intended to fail from the beginning in order to bring us socialism. That it is compulsory is precisely the perfect refutation of rwb's assertion. It also demonstrates that a system that denies that first freedom to families, to raise their children as their own, is to socialize all citizens as public property. rwb likes his ability, as a member in good standing of the mass-claque of like-minded control freaks, to control that property. It's simple greed for power, and not much deeper than that.

rwb is in that regard a demonstrably archetypal product of that very educational system. It HAS worked, and will collapse into tyranny right on schedule.

39 posted on 03/31/2002 9:39:04 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: rwb
Concentration camp experienced Vicktor Frankl noted that:

THERE IS NO FREEDOM WITHOUT RESPONSIBILITY.

He didn't mean, per se, that it's not appropriate to have freedom without responsibility.

He did not mean that responsibility OUGHT to go with freedom.

He did not mean that freedom is most comfortable or looks better or flows more smoothly with responsibility.

He did not mean freedom was dressed best in responsibility.

He did not mean that freedom was lonely without responsibility.

He meant that there is

NO!
FREEDOM
WITHOUT
RESPONSIBILITY!

It just doesn't exist.

Oh, it may APPEAR to exist for a limited time. . . the reaping can be much too delayed for a Skinnarian behaviorist. . . but the chickens always come home to roost.

One always reaps rice from planting rice.
One always reaps chaos from planting chaos.
One reaps violence from planting violence.
One reaps destruction from planting destruction.
And rebelling against the Rule Book and it's Author is plain destructive.

Love and Creation are HIS turf.

Go against Him if your goal is the opposite.

40 posted on 03/31/2002 9:41:12 PM PST by Quix
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To: rwb
Your mocking seems very unfitting to me.

Any complex system has plenty of potential for doing as the Commies have done.

Certainly segregation was evil.

And, somtimes some demonic forces can appear to deliver one of lesser demonic forces. Does being controlled and plagued with a worse and stronger demon mean it was nice that the lesser demon was dealt with? I think not.

Segregation was wrong on its foundation. True Christians at heart behaved that way all along.

Doing a good thing as a smoke screen along the way of a worse segregation from the few ruling elite who wish all the rest of the serfs to be under their black boots does not really strike me as honorable--and certainly not honest. Mindlessly cheering such is not very wise either.

41 posted on 03/31/2002 9:46:33 PM PST by Quix
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To: rwb
Freedom without responsibility, results in anarchy and abuse.

To coerce responsibility is to assume it. A person coerced has no accountability at all. Your preference trains people into expressing no ownership for any of their deeds. So you see, you can't get there from here your way.

42 posted on 03/31/2002 9:46:34 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie
YES, IT IS TRUE that there is NO RESPONSIBILITY WITHOUT FREEDOM TO CHOOSE.

But the Commies et al have always had in mind the denial and removal of freedom to choose--except, of course--for the elite.

Research has shown that the indiscriminantly anti-religious are the MOST BIGOTTED, MOST VIOLENT, MOST DANGEROUS TO OTHER'S FREEDOMS ETC.

43 posted on 03/31/2002 9:51:16 PM PST by Quix
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To: Carry_Okie
It is well-documented that the public schools were intended to fail from the beginning in order to bring us socialism.

Being compulsory, has nothing to do with determining whether public schooling will or will not fail.

It also demonstrates that a system that denies that first freedom to families, to raise their children as their own, is to socialize all citizens as public property.

I didn't say that kids have to go to public schooling. I said I was in favor of the majority (99%) of the population having some sort of education.
There aren't enough toilet-cleaning jobs to go around and still generate a powerful economy and technological base.

If you're raising an illiterate brat in your house, I don't want my taxes going to house him in some jail, 15 years from now, or pay for his lawyer, just because he didn't have the skills to make a legal, liveable income and had to break into my house to make a buck.

44 posted on 03/31/2002 9:51:42 PM PST by rwb
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To: Quix
Your mocking seems very unfitting to me.

I apologize if you misunderstood me.
I was not mocking you, I was agreeing with what you were saying.

45 posted on 03/31/2002 9:53:49 PM PST by rwb
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To: Carry_Okie
A person coerced has no accountability at all.

I agree with you on that.

Your preference trains people into expressing no ownership for any of their deeds. So you see, you can't get there from here your way.

On the other hand, coaxing people in a certain direction is sometimes necesssary/inescapable.
For example, you break the law, you go to jail.
That is a form of "coersion" to discourage bad behavior.

As Quix pointed out, every action/behavior has its consequences.

46 posted on 03/31/2002 10:02:10 PM PST by rwb
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To: Quix
But the Commies et al have always had in mind the denial and removal of freedom to choose--except, of course--for the elite.

I think that type of behavior is not limited to commies, and occurs whenever one group believes it knows what's best for another.
Yes, I'm aware of the irony, however, I don't claim to know what's best but I do claim to know what is obviously not best, namely segregation.

Research has shown that the indiscriminantly anti-religious are the MOST BIGOTTED, MOST VIOLENT, MOST DANGEROUS TO OTHER'S FREEDOMS ETC.

Err, the muslim governments and clerics in Saudi Arabia (and the rest of the middle-east), are not anti-religious.
Godless commies never poured battery acid on women suspected of cheating, so your statement about 'MOST VIOLENT' can be argued with.

47 posted on 03/31/2002 10:08:08 PM PST by rwb
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To: Quix
But the Commies et al have always had in mind the denial and removal of freedom to choose--except, of course--for the elite.

I think that type of behavior is not limited to commies, and occurs whenever one group believes it knows what's best for another.
Yes, I'm aware of the irony, however, I don't claim to know what's best but I do claim to know what is obviously not best, namely segregation.

Research has shown that the indiscriminantly anti-religious are the MOST BIGOTTED, MOST VIOLENT, MOST DANGEROUS TO OTHER'S FREEDOMS ETC.

Err, the muslim governments and clerics in Saudi Arabia (and the rest of the middle-east), are not anti-religious.
Godless commies never poured battery acid on women suspected of cheating, so your statement about 'MOST VIOLENT' can be argued with.

48 posted on 03/31/2002 10:08:25 PM PST by rwb
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To: rwb;RLK
Being compulsory, has nothing to do with determining whether public schooling will or will not fail.

On the contrary, it has everything to do with it. Any political means of applying police power to control the use of property has the inherent propensity to use failure in the delivery of that service to justify expanded powers. Consider welfare, public education, or regulatory law.

I didn't say that kids have to go to public schooling. I said I was in favor of the majority (99%) of the population having some sort of education.

Well that's fascinating, although your language was nowhere near so conciliatory or altruistic. You do know that this country was 95% literate before there was compulsory education. How are we doing now?

There aren't enough toilet-cleaning jobs to go around and still generate a powerful economy and technological base.

Our technological base is now acquired by importing hordes of immigrants under H1-B visas. Without that program, ours would indeed be a nation of burger flippers.

If you're raising an illiterate brat in your house, I don't want my taxes going to house him in some jail, 15 years from now, or pay for his lawyer, just because he didn't have the skills to make a legal, liveable income and had to break into my house to make a buck.

Now that was a piece of gratuitous provocation to sate your peevish little ego. You could have said, "If someone is raising an illiterate brat in their house," but you chose to personalize it to get me to think poorly through anger. Now don't deny that it was intentional or you will be admitting yourself to be either a moron or incapable of civil discourse. You see, I don't stand for anybody impugning my children that way, and here is why:

I am home-schooling MY two kids while I write and market a book. One is old enough to have taken standardized tests, FReeper NattieShea, age 8. Her Stanford Achievement test scores last year indicated that she is a perfectly normal 10th grader. She scored Post High School in mathematics and algebra :-). She is completing a self-taught course in high school geometry now and will begin trigonometry, analytic geometry, and calculus this summer! THIS is an example of her literary work at that time. Her current term paper analyzes five works by Dickens for how his perspective of the Industrial Revolution was biased by his childhood experience.

Her sister is now barely 8. She is completing her work in fractions and can multiply binomials in her head. I am now introducing matrix algebra as a means to do subtraction. Her term paper is on five books by Jules Verne. She is the athlete, NattieShea is the dancer.

That’s right, we taught times tables and fractions before doing large subtraction problems. That is because we are free to integrate the curriculum into new and exciting forms that save huge amounts of time. It has its downside in that all experiments don’t work, but the benefit is that we can change it if it’s a flop. Our process of rapid iteration creates a customized curriculum and pedagogical style for each child.

Here is the really damning piece of information insofar as public schools are concerned:

I spend less time teaching these kids than it would take me to drive them to school and back plus help them with their homework. I have no doubt that, if they were in pubelick schools I would spend MORE time dealing with the behavioral problems arising therefrom than I do now while achieving excellent results and producing kids that are a pleasure to have. Parents beg us to loan them out hoping that they might be a positive influence on their kids. Home schooling is the best thing ever to happen in our family. It has brought us together like nothing else ever could have done.

When a market of home schools reaches, say five million kids, that there will be dedicated broadband services and cable channels, private laboratory facilities in mini-malls, in short, that the MARKET will provide the ancillary capabilities that one would rationally assume constitutes a limiting factor for the continued rapid growth of home-schooled teenagers. As parents find ways to integrate their professional development with their educational responsibilities, using the power to bring their professions into the home (as I do) the children will also see and experience that professional life all during their educational development. What do I mean?

I write and consult for a living. Everywhere I go, so do my kids. They see the world of work while they study. They walk the halls of the State Legislature, they visit the farms, factories, and small businesses, they meet forest landowners, they witness discussions with academics and agency administrators. They can sit quietly and study anywhere. Why? They get to see the interactions of adults on issues that matter. So far, wherever we go, I have yet to meet a person who is not delighted to have the kids around. They see me get frustrated with my own inabilities. They see me study and learn the skills I need to overcome the difficulty. They witness the need for quick thinking in debate. They therefore understand the importance of what they are doing. They understand that as soon as they are able, that they can help. Tell me that this is not an incredible learning environment.

For those who have doubts about home-schooling perhaps you might read Charlotte Iserbyt's book, The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America or John Taylor Gatto's book, An Underground History of American Education to understand where the public system is really going. It is so bad that any idiotic argument about socialization should be shown for what it is: the covetous desire to control how MY KIDS think. It is socialism. Nothing more. One final benefit. Every time a parent confronts what ehy don't know that they need to teach their kids, they get to go fix the damage done by THEIR public education. Home-schooling re-educates TWO generations of voters simultaneously. That is why the fascist system so greatly fears it.

When you are adult enough to understand how destructive are your pathetic compulsions, I will bother with you again.

49 posted on 03/31/2002 10:10:49 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie
rwb:If you're raising an illiterate brat in your house, I don't want my taxes going to house him in some jail, 15 years from now, or pay for his lawyer, just because he didn't have the skills to make a legal, liveable income and had to break into my house to make a buck.

Carry_Okie: Now that was a piece of gratuitous provocation to sate your peevish little ego. You could have said, "If someone is raising an illiterate brat in their house," but you chose to personalize it to get me to think poorly through anger. Now don't deny that it was intentional or you will be admitting yourself to be either a moron or incapable of civil discourse.

Actually it wasn't intentional.
I was addressing you, so I used "You".
I think you're a bit too sensitive, but here goes:

If someone's raising an illiterate brat in their house, I don't want my taxes going to house him/her (the brat) in some jail, 15 years from now, or pay for his/her lawyer, just because he/she didn't have the skills to make a legal, liveable income and had to break into my house to make a buck.

Notice I even typed out a gender-neutral version, in case that's the next thing you wish to nitpick.

50 posted on 03/31/2002 10:24:49 PM PST by rwb
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