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FLAT TAX*** TIME HAS COME???
4/15/02 | ANAGM

Posted on 04/15/2002 3:58:03 PM PDT by ANAGM

OKAY Freep-peeps... Now open for discussion, the FLAT TAX thread. I for one think the flat tax is a great idea. My only issue with it is that it would likely put thousands of CPA's out of a job, but it would also do away with the majority of the IRS. I want to hear opinions from everyone. I myself, am self-employed so the flat tax is very appealing. I currently set aside about 30% of what I make to meet my tax "obligations". For info on the old ARMEY proposal got to flattax.house.gov Look forward to hearing from you all.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: flattax; taxes; taxrates; taxreform
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1 posted on 04/15/2002 3:58:03 PM PDT by ANAGM
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To: ANAGM;spiff
Ok, I'll pretend to be naive...
Why does it necessarily have to put CPAs out of business? They do more than taxes. As long as businesses need to keep books, they'll need CPAs to conduct audits at the very least.
And I suspect that some very bright CPAs will figure out a way to branch out...small business consulting services?...and stay in business themselves.
I am obviously not a CPA. Any of you have other good ideas?
2 posted on 04/15/2002 4:01:42 PM PDT by HiJinx
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To: ANAGM
Flat tax ... great idea! I doubt few here will suggest otherwise unless they want to go further and eradicate income tax altogether. Our best energies should be spent figuring out how to educate voters and get the right folks elected to implement a flat tax.
3 posted on 04/15/2002 4:02:36 PM PDT by fire and forget
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To: ANAGM
Bring it on! It's working in Russia; 13% flat tax, and their economy is improving already.

But you're right, too many people depend on the jobs the IRS causes, agents, accountants, etc.
But I say, bring it on! And while we're at it, let's abolish the death tax too!

4 posted on 04/15/2002 4:03:42 PM PDT by EggsAckley
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To: HiJinx
Any of you have other good ideas?

land fill? no, my bad, that's lawyers. nevermind.

flat tax would be a major step in the right direction from where we are.

5 posted on 04/15/2002 4:06:02 PM PDT by glock rocks
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To: fire and forget
"To those who think we can have a flat tax on incomes, I say we did that once, 1913, and look what we have got."
6 posted on 04/15/2002 4:06:18 PM PDT by motzman
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To: ANAGM
Count me in too. 10%, no more than 15%
7 posted on 04/15/2002 4:07:20 PM PDT by shekkian
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To: glock rocks
I used to think that about lawyers, until I needed one. Then I found one who was recommended by my local gun store owner. Not too bad a deal!
No, I agree the flat tax is a good thing barring no taxes at all...
8 posted on 04/15/2002 4:08:44 PM PDT by HiJinx
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To: HiJinx
Seems to me I don't voluntarily pay taxes so CPA's can remain in work. I pay taxes like I would pay "protection money" to the mob ; so they won't come and break my legs or in the case of the IRS put me in the can and take away my house. There is very little difference between organized crime and government theft through taxation.

I would support a flat tax but not a national sales tax. The flat tax would have to be something less than 15% and we would have to safeguard the rate by working into law some way to prevent the crooked bastids in Congress from raising it every year. 30% of my hard-earned income is just to darn much. That said, we will never get the criminals in government to agree to anything "fair". The only way we will get out from under their thumb is if we revolt. (Not necessarily armed revolt - don't get me wrong here!)

9 posted on 04/15/2002 4:08:54 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: HiJinx
I suppose it doesn't necesssarily put CPA's out of business. However, it certainly would "limit" the number of CPA's by reducing the demand for their services.
10 posted on 04/15/2002 4:10:27 PM PDT by ANAGM
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To: ANAGM
My only issue with it is that it would likely put thousands of CPA's out of a job

Would you have an issue with curing cancer if it resulted in putting some doctors out of work?
I'm sure those CPA's could find other ways of earning their pay.

11 posted on 04/15/2002 4:11:31 PM PDT by occam's chainsaw
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To: ANAGM
My only issue with it is that it would likely put thousands of CPA's out of a job, but it would also do away with the majority of the IRS.

Maybe you can help me with something I've been wondering about. Why would a flat tax (i.e., a uniform tax rate) on income wipe out the "majority of the IRS" or render CPA's useless?

12 posted on 04/15/2002 4:11:57 PM PDT by humbletheFiend
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To: motzman
Look what we've got?
A progressive tax that punishes the achievers...
A tool for social stricture in the hands of congress-critters.

No tax at all means we need to look again at tariffs to fund the government.
And in an era of reliance on world trade partners, tariffs are a dangerous thing.

No, we need some form of taxation, sales or flat...
But we need fair taxation!

13 posted on 04/15/2002 4:12:16 PM PDT by HiJinx
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To: HiJinx
The Congress will "reform" the tax system like they "reformed" campaign finance and they "reformed" education in the Carter years - by making it so screwy that you will still need a CPA to figure it out. And in the end they will figure out how to make taxes even higher.
14 posted on 04/15/2002 4:13:04 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: HiJinx
"The flat tax is a good thing, barring no taxes at all"

If there's one thing California has learned from gay right's activists it's "push your agenda gradually" Take what you can get and work towards an income tax free society

15 posted on 04/15/2002 4:14:17 PM PDT by ANAGM
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To: ANAGM
The flat tax makes too much sense and therefore will never happen.

But it is especially important that EVERYONE pays tax. We have a situation now where about half of the people pay NO taxes...when more than half of the people are voting for freebies an not the principles of freedom our cultural and societal decline will accelerate...and the bottom is approaching way to fast as it is.

16 posted on 04/15/2002 4:14:33 PM PDT by gorush
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To: 45Auto
Man, I can't win here!
Maybe we need to tie in term limits so the congress-critters don't get an opportunity to accrue power...hmmm???
17 posted on 04/15/2002 4:15:32 PM PDT by HiJinx
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To: ANAGM
Time has come.
18 posted on 04/15/2002 4:15:48 PM PDT by madison46
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To: ANAGM
Our CPA says a flat tax wouldn't dent their business. Change the nature slightly but allow more sleep during springtime, which they would cherish.

Tim

19 posted on 04/15/2002 4:16:41 PM PDT by AzJP
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To: ANAGM
I'd go as far as to suggest CPA's will do better than ever. More people with money, more need to have people who can help manage it. It would be an Amrican renaissance economically, which is why the RATS won't let it ever happen.
20 posted on 04/15/2002 4:17:07 PM PDT by Caipirabob
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To: 45Auto
It doesn't matter a bit if we get a flat tax. The INSTANT a flat tax is in place, there will be cries that it isn't fair that the rich are paying the same rate as everyone else. The poor will be easily convinced that if the rich are forced to pay more, they (the poor) will pay nothing. Back on the old treadmill.

The fairness of the "progressive" tax is simply self-evident to some people--namely, the vast majority. It will never be permanently got rid of.

21 posted on 04/15/2002 4:19:27 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: humbletheFiend
"Why would a flat tax (i.e., a uniform tax rate) on income wipe out the "majority of the IRS" or render CPA's useless?"

Under the ARMEY proposal, you forfeit your deductions (weep), and the tax form is the size of a postcard. The simplicity of it all demands that CPA's and the IRS would have to reduce their numbers. Clint Eastwood once put it this way, if the flat tax were passed the IRS would be replaced by a little old lady and a PC.

22 posted on 04/15/2002 4:19:28 PM PDT by ANAGM
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To: HiJinx
Term limits were a good idea - but they haven't worked out as expected. A better idea is to tie in a 10% flat tax, payable at the end of the year instead of skimmed off the top of your pay, with a limit on the legislative session - to about 90 days a year. And like Wyoming, every other year they can work on nothing but budget matters - not legislation. And to top it all of, every fifth year will be devoted to repealing or "sun-setting" lousy laws.
23 posted on 04/15/2002 4:20:08 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: ANAGM
CPA = Certified Public Accountant. They have a degree in accounting. Something that seems to have been forgotten by a lot of people. A flat tax presumsumably would be based upon net income. An accountant would be the logical person to do the accurate accounting of a business so that the least amount of tax would be paid. They would have more accounting work.
24 posted on 04/15/2002 4:20:20 PM PDT by Umanbean
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To: 45Auto
We need to impliment the flat tax, as well as eliminate all of these "special taxes" such as what appears on phone bills and the like. I really wonder what people pay if you include all of these hidden taxes, it wouldn't be pretty.
25 posted on 04/15/2002 4:22:13 PM PDT by Andrewksu
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To: Arthur McGowan
he fairness of the "progressive" tax is simply self-evident to some people--namely, the vast majority. It will never be permanently got rid of.

Which puts us right back at square one. I would rather see a limit on the legislative session than anything else. We could save a lot of money if the crooks in Congress had something else to do besides screw up the freedom of the citizens of the Republic for at least 6 to 9 months out of the rear.

26 posted on 04/15/2002 4:23:43 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: 45Auto
for at least 6 to 9 months out of the rear

Freudian slip?

27 posted on 04/15/2002 4:24:57 PM PDT by HiJinx
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To: Andrewksu
If you add up just the "big five" taxes - social security, federal income tax, state income tax (where applicble), medicare and sales tax - the bill comes to about 50% of your income. Then if you start adding up all the little taxes, like the federal and state excise taxes on tires, gasoline, park fees, etc, etc, etc. you wind up forking over 65-75% of your income to the rotten miscreants. Having that much money to play with is why someone like the piece of crap Senatrix from Cal, the dishonorable Dianne Feinswine paid out 35 million clams to buy her Senate seat last time around.
28 posted on 04/15/2002 4:27:20 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: ANAGM
From the Constitution Party Platform:

The Constitution, in Article I, Section 8, gives Congress the power "to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States."

In Article I, Section 9, the original document made clear that "no Capitation, or other direct Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census of Enumeration herein before directed to be taken." It is moreover established that "No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."

Since 1913, our Constitutional rights to life, liberty, and property have been abridged and diminished by the assumption of direct taxing authority on each of us by the federal government.

We will propose legislation to abolish the Internal Revenue Service, and will veto any authorization, appropriation, or continuing resolution which contains any funding whatsoever for that illicit and unconstitutional agency. We are opposed to the flat-rate tax proposals that are being promoted as an improvement to the current tax system. The Sixteenth Amendment does not provide authority for an unapportioned direct tax.

Moreover, it is our intention to replace entirely the current tax system of the U.S. government (including income taxes, Social Security taxes, estate taxes, and inheritance taxes).

To the degree that tariffs on foreign products are insufficient to cover the legitimate Constitutional costs of the federal government, we will offer an apportioned "state-rate tax" in which the responsibility for covering the cost of unmet obligations will be divided among the several states in accordance with their proportion of the total population of the United States, excluding the District of Columbia. Thus, if a state contains 10 percent of the nation’s citizens, it will be responsible for assuming payment of 10 percent of the annual deficit.

The effect of this "state-rate tax" will be to encourage politicians to argue for less, rather than more, federal spending, and less state spending as well.

29 posted on 04/15/2002 4:27:59 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777
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To: ANAGM
Under the ARMEY proposal, you forfeit your deductions (weep), and the tax form is the size of a postcard. The simplicity of it all demands that CPA's and the IRS would have to reduce their numbers. Clint Eastwood once put it this way, if the flat tax were passed the IRS would be replaced by a little old lady and a PC.

I understand that the tax code can be simplified by, among other things, eliminating various deductions. What I don't understand is the connection between uniform rates and simplification. Once I've waded through the deductions and the more complicated parts of the code, the simplest part of the project is to find the appropriate rate. They even provide a table for that and making the rates uniform won't significantly simplify that task.

I do understand the usual philosophical arguments in favor of uniform rates, but I don't think that they have much to do with simplicity. And I hate to see the effort to create a simpler tax code stymied by its being attached to the more controversial demand for uniform rates.

30 posted on 04/15/2002 4:28:42 PM PDT by humbletheFiend
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To: Umanbean
Uman, you're right, CPA's are generally very motivated entrepreneur types and they'd find business likely. I guess my original comment was based on what I know of accountants, which admittedly isn't that much. However, would you agree that the IRS would take a big hit?
31 posted on 04/15/2002 4:30:17 PM PDT by ANAGM
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To: ANAGM
Most tax payers who say they want a 10 or 15% flat income tax, already pay way below that. The bottom 50% pay an average of 4.4%. Flat tax will only help the $100,000 grand and up crowd. Most of you would pay more! People who are claiming they pay 30% are wrong, or make alot of money and are not managing it well, or are counting SS, which would not change.

I'm retired on about the average US income, I paid less than 5%.

Everybody do your math, how many paying over 15% of gross income now?

32 posted on 04/15/2002 4:31:21 PM PDT by John Jamieson
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To: ANAGM
THE IRS IS A MONSTER WITH A BUNCH OF MORON ROBOTS WORKING FOR IT. FLAT TAX NOW!!!
33 posted on 04/15/2002 4:31:59 PM PDT by jetson
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To: ANAGM
I would hope so. I won't hold my breath. By the way, every "simplification" has made the code more complex. One more comment, CPA's do not sweat about the flat tax. Lenders will want detailed information and a postcard sized return would not provide the data necessary to analyze a business. (I have worked for a CPA for 21 years.)
34 posted on 04/15/2002 4:36:45 PM PDT by Umanbean
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To: ANAGM
It looks like everyone is talking about a flat tax rate rather than a flat tax. If I go to purchase a refrigerator, the price isn't dependent upon my income. It has the same price for everyone. Shouldn't the same thing apply to government services? We should know the cost up front ... X number of dollars.

The problem would be that if we took the federal budget and divided it by the number of taxpayers, some people would not be able to pay that amount. Then there should be a huge cry to lower the amount. The most logical way to lower the price would be to reduce the spending.

Alas, logic has nothing to do with politics.

35 posted on 04/15/2002 4:37:53 PM PDT by gitmo
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To: motzman
No argument here. Once the Constitution was breached with respect to the inviolable property rights of citizens, Pandora's box was opened. The rest is history. We're a great nation of great people. How'd we let this happen?
36 posted on 04/15/2002 4:39:22 PM PDT by fire and forget
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: John Jamieson
John, My father and I both are self employed and we sock away 30% for taxes. Are we missing something? Give me your CPA's number if you only pay 5%
38 posted on 04/15/2002 4:40:38 PM PDT by ANAGM
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To: gorush
Your Right, everyone has to pay taxes. Every person must "feel" the cost of service!
39 posted on 04/15/2002 4:41:12 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777
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To: ANAGM
I like the flat tax msotly because it respects the Contitutional gaurentee to "Equal Protection under the law", that is, everyone pays the same rate.

However I much prefer a repeal of income tax in favor of a national sales tax. I really do not like reporting my finacial dealings to the goverment. Also, I can much better regulate the taxes I pay through national sales taxation.

Unfortunately I cannot support a Sales tax unless the 16th Amendment is repealed.

40 posted on 04/15/2002 4:41:38 PM PDT by M.K. Borders
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To: ANAGM
hOW ABOUT THE "0" FLAT TAXX?
41 posted on 04/15/2002 4:43:30 PM PDT by ANAGM
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To: HiJinx
http://yourcongress.com/section.asp?section=Where_Money_Goes
42 posted on 04/15/2002 4:47:42 PM PDT by jetson
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: ANAGM
8-12% would get us debt free! It seems to be ok for the once stauch communist Russia who has a 13% flat rate.....What's wrong with this picture?
44 posted on 04/15/2002 4:52:18 PM PDT by JohnPaulJones
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To: yumanity
We go to a 5% flat tax or a 2% value added tax and drop all of the government idiotic programs. http://yourcongress.com/section.asp?section=Where_Money_Goes
45 posted on 04/15/2002 4:53:33 PM PDT by jetson
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To: yumanity
We go to a 5% flat tax or a 2% value added tax and drop all of the government idiotic programs. http://yourcongress.com/section.asp?section=Where_Money_Goes
46 posted on 04/15/2002 4:53:39 PM PDT by jetson
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: *Taxreform
Check the Bump List folders for articles related to and descriptions of the above topic(s) or for other topics of interest.
48 posted on 04/15/2002 5:00:45 PM PDT by Free the USA
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To: Free the USA
fairtax.org
49 posted on 04/15/2002 5:01:43 PM PDT by Free the USA
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To: 45Auto; Taxreform
I would urge you to carefully consider what you said:

"I pay taxes like I would pay "protection money" to the mob ; so they won't come and break my legs or in the case of the IRS put me in the can and take away my house. There is very little difference between organized crime and government theft through taxation. "

A flat tax is still an income tax. It does not get rid of the IRS. You (and every other taxpayer) would continue to pay "protection money" to the IRS mob under the Flat Income Tax.

OTOH, the National Retail Sales Tax will abolish the IRS. You will no longer pay "protection money."

Here is the logic: You will pay taxes in accordance with how much you consume, not how much you earn. You will be in control of how much you consume. Therefore, you will be in control of the amount of taxes you pay:

Not the Congress.
Not the IRS.
You!

50 posted on 04/15/2002 5:03:07 PM PDT by Taxman
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