Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Seminaries Source of Scandals in Catholic Church
TCRNews.com ^ | April 19, 2002 | John Burger

Posted on 04/20/2002 4:39:25 AM PDT by cathway

'What Is Going On in the U.S.?'
Seminarians have shocking answers to the Pope's question

Scandal in the Church: Part Three

National Catholic Register
April 21-27, 2002

by JOHN BURGER
Register Staff Writer


WASHINGTON - When U.S. bishops had a working lunch with Pope John Paul II on April 9, they were surprised that upon entering the room, the Holy Father, not waiting for formal introductions, got right to the point: "Tell me what is going on in the United States." The Holy Father plans a meeting with all U.S. cardinals April 22-25 in Rome to discuss just that.

The Register, in a series of articles on the clergy abuse scandals, has been answering the same question. First, the series reported that pedophilia wasn't as pervasive as it has been portrayed; second, that the U.S. bishops (with notorious exceptions) by and large haven't been ignoring the problem as has been suggested. Now, the series takes a look at the real source and solution of the problem of clergy abusers: seminaries.

In interviews with the Register, priests, seminarians, seminary rectors and vocation directors past and present described seminaries where homosexuality has been tolerated among their ranks and dissent from Church teaching fostered. But they also spoke about reform measures in place and a younger, more orthodox breed of seminarians studying for the priesthood.

Many point out that the sex scandals involve priests who went through the seminary decades ago and suggest that a number of factors may have been at play, allowing potential problem-candidates to get through: screening was not as good, officials were somewhat naive and some candidates may have entered the seminary to avoid the military draft.

And when the cultural revolution of the 1960s permeated all facets of American life, a looser atmosphere in seminaries and a rejection of traditional Church teaching left the door open to sexual experimentation. Faithful seminarians expressing concern about potential abuse were warned not to jump to conclusions.

One former vocations director, who asked not to be identified, felt that those in authority who feared a vocations shortage lowered the standards for seminary candidates.

Today, although most dioceses and seminaries screen candidates thoroughly, some observers question the value of the psychological tests given and caution that psychologists used by the Church do not all share the Church's understanding of human nature and sexuality.

In addition, although more seminarians tend to be orthodox today, many professors still teaching in seminaries are not, seminarians and younger priests said.

Some observers said that many seminaries continue to use moral theology textbooks that question traditional sexual ethics. A new book, Goodbye! Good Men, by Michael Rose, says that many seminaries and diocesan vocations teams have been hijacked by a homosexual subculture that has discouraged scores of men with vocations and a desire to serve Christ faithfully from continuing or even starting studies for the priesthood.

Oblate of St. Francis de Sales Father John Harvey, founding director of Courage, the Church's ministry to people with same-sex attractions, agreed that poor seminary formation has contributed to the sex abuse problem. In one seminary, which he declined to name, professors refer to Church teaching as "the opinion of the magisterium," which gives the impression that the opinions of dissident theologians are as valid as Church teaching. If a moral theology professor teaches that it can be morally good for a Christian to have a homosexual relationship as long as he or she is monogamous, a student may very well apply that opinion to himself and feel free to act out on his inclinations, he said. "The way homosexuality is taught needs to be cleaned up."

One New York pastor charged "Good men have been malformed" in seminaries.

Many "walked away in disgust," said Father Joseph Wilson of Queens.

Father Wilson studied at Holy Trinity Seminary in Dallas, where, in the mid-1980s, he remembers suffering through a guest lecture on homosexuality, part of a workshop for priests ministering to homosexuals. Seminarians were asked to attend the workshop as well. It was a "completely immoral discussion" that had the effect of undermining the Church's teaching on homosexuality, he felt. The lecturer, a priest, said that "homosexuals are not welcomed in our churches because gay couples can't go up to Communion holding hands."

The speaker, Father Wilson said, was Father Paul Shanley, the man who has since left the Archdiocese of Boston and the priesthood. He had been called into Cardinal Humberto Madeiros' office repeatedly because of his reported advocacy of doctrine contrary to Church teaching on homosexuality. Father Shanley, who is now accused of rape, reportedly spoke in favor of sex between men and boys at a 1979 meeting that apparently led to the founding of the North American Man Boy Love Association.

Scandal in the Church Three-Part Series

Part 1: Media Myths Fuel the Clergy Abuse Scandal
Part 2: Clergy Abuse: Cases Few, Response Significant

Efforts to Reform

A random survey of dioceses revealed a variety of approaches to screening and attitudes toward the homosexual candidate. In the Archdiocese of New York, psychological testing begins even before the application process. "I talk to [men who are interested] about having a good prayer life, about the importance of talking to God and being close to him," said Father Joseph Tierney, vocations director. "That's how your vocation will come."

As part of the application process, most dioceses require a battery of psychological tests; an extensive biographical sketch, including family background; and interviews with various boards. After acceptance, many candidates have to undergo a criminal background check to gain entrance to a seminary.

"Dunwoodie always looks for the man who sincerely wants to serve the Church," Father Tierney said, using the nickname for St. Joseph's Seminary in Yonkers, N.Y., the major seminary of the Archdiocese of New York.

When it comes to homosexuality, the rectors of seminaries in the archdioceses of Chicago and New York said they would not take a candidate who has been involved in a homosexual lifestyle.

"I wouldn't accept someone known to be involved in homosexuality," said Msgr. Peter Finn, rector of St. Joseph's Seminary. He said he would "not be inclined" to accept a candidate even if he was a homosexual who has not acted on his same-sex attractions.

For Father John Canary, rector of the University of St. Mary of the Lake Seminary in Mundelein, outside Chicago, homosexual "orientation" does not necessarily exclude a candidate. But Father John Folda, rector of St. Gregory the Great Seminary of the Diocese of Lincoln, Neb., said simply, "We don't take homosexual candidates." The reason, he said, is the same as that given by the Holy See. "Because of the way of life a priest lives, there would be a great deal of temptation for someone like that," he said. "You'd be calling a man to something unsuitable for his circumstances."

Also, if a student population becomes predominantly homosexual, heterosexual candidates would be reluctant to study there, Father Folda said.

In addition to testing, all candidates for the Diocese of Lincoln are required to "spend time in close proximity to the vocations director," he said.

That's the way it is in the Diocese of Providence, R.I., where prospective candidates live in a house of formation with the vocations director and the rector of the major seminary. "The best screening is seeing them interact for a year of two," said Father Marcel Taillon, the vocations recruiter. "In some dioceses, you apply, and they send you away to their seminary." A candidate, he said, should be known to the Church.

Once accepted, a candidate is usually under constant scrutiny as he studies, participates in the seminary's prayer life and community life, and undertakes pastoral assignments. At St. Mary of the Lake, each seminarian must pass a yearly vote of confidence by at least 80% of faculty members and 80% of fellow seminarians. Father Canary encourages anyone who knows of issues that may indicate a problem to let him know. Seminarians also undergo evaluations in their pastoral assignments on how they relate to people both professionally and ministerially, particularly how they relate to women.

"So much of a priest's working relationship is with women," Father Canary said. Officials look for a "level of maturity and an ability to maintain professional boundaries with women."
He said that pedophilia, strictly speaking, is "very hard to determine," but that a study done 10 years ago found only one pedophile priest among all those who had served in the Archdiocese of Chicago over the previous 40 years. The rest were homosexual abusers of teens.
"We were told that they get stuck at a [certain] age, emotionally," he said. "Some of that you can see in a person, in the level of maturity in a person's work. "They can't handle relationships in mature ways," with the staff of a parish, for example, or with women. "Then you dig deeper, and maybe you send him for assessment."

There also seems to be a concern for addressing human problems that future priests might have. Mount St. Mary's Seminary in Emmitsburg, Md., is perhaps typical in holding workshops for seminarians on issues such as celibacy and anger. And at the Seminary of the Immaculate Conception in Huntington, N.Y., the issue of intimacy was "repeatedly addressed, for example, in friendships and relationships with fellow priests, parishioners and lay staff," said Father Douglas Arcoleo, a priest of the Diocese of Rockville Centre, N.Y., who was ordained four years ago.

Psychologists on staff at St. Joseph's Seminary in New York help students develop interpersonal relationships, and students have the help of faculty mentors and spiritual advisers.

"As dean, I had constant conversations with the men on their relationships," said Father Joseph Tierney, the vocations director. He added that discipline was important: If someone missed morning prayer, he would have to report to Father Tierney. As a faculty adviser, he tried to help students form good habits of a prayer life and maintain a healthy balance between academic work, a social life and exercise.

Rome Has Spoken

After meeting with the Holy Father in early April, Bishop Wilton Gregory - head of the U.S. bishops' conference - said the Church does need to re-examine homosexual priests and ask "what kind of men we want to be our priests, and importantly, to be the priests who care for the next generation of Catholics."

He said the issue of homosexuality in the priesthood deserves discussion, in terms of how it affects a priest's ability to keep his promise of living a chaste life. But while it would be helpful to examine this question, Catholic News Service reported that he said it should not necessarily be linked to the sex abuse issue.

Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls linked the two when he addressed the issue of homosexuality and the priesthood in March, saying that men with homosexual inclinations "just cannot be ordained."

"That does not imply a final judgment on people with homosexuality," he said. "But you cannot be in this field."

His comments echoed Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, secretary of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who told Catholic News Service last year that persons with a homosexual inclination should not be admitted to the seminary.

The two men's remarks might make it seem like the Vatican is just waking up to the problem, but Rome has been speaking out for some time. The question is whether dioceses and seminaries in the United States have been implementing its directives.

A 1961 Vatican document recommended that any person with serious unresolved sexual problems be screened out, saying that the chastity and celibacy required by religious and priestly life would constitute for them a "continuous heroic act and a painful martyrdom."

Even further back, Pope Pius XI, in a 1935 encyclical on the priesthood, said that those in charge of the clergy must not only foster and strengthen vocations but also "discourage unsuitable candidates, and in good time send them away from a path not meant for them."

"Such are all youths who show a lack of necessary fitness, and who are, therefore, unlikely to persevere in the priestly ministry both worthily and becomingly," Pope Pius wrote in Ad Catholici Sacerdotii. "In these matters hesitation and delay is a serious mistake and may do serious harm. It is far better to dismiss an unfit student in the early stages" to prevent him from being a "stumbling block to himself and to others with peril of eternal ruin."

Fred Berlin, a psychiatrist who has served on the U.S. bishops' ad hoc committee on sexual abuse, said that just as many girls are abused as are boys. As far as sexual abuse is concerned, there is no evidence that a homosexual is more of a risk to a boy than a heterosexual is to a girl, he said. Berlin's claim seems to be starkly contradicted by the facts now being reported ad nauseam by the media, but it represents the advice bishops are getting.

Berlin did suggest that there may be more cases of priestly sexual abuse of boys because, in the past, a priest chaperoning a group of boys on a trip, for example, did not raise a red flag, while a priest accompanying a group of girls would have.

Father Harvey of Courage, which seeks to help persons with same-sex attraction live chaste lives, said the homosexual candidate is not the only problematic seminarian. "A heterosexual in the seminary who is constantly masturbating shouldn't be in the seminary" either, he said.

But Richard Fitzgibbons, a psychiatrist who runs Comprehensive Counseling Services in West Conshohocken, Pa., said that virtually every priest he's treated who has sexually abused children had previously been involved in homosexual relationships with other adults.

One vocations director who asked not to be identified said that the problem calls for dismissal of all homosexual candidates, but he added that the problem is not just a sexual one but also a doctrinal one.

"Bishops are making the judgment that [homosexual and heterosexual] libido drives are equal," said the priest. In reality, the sex drives of homosexuals is stronger, and the Church is getting a '$2 billion lesson' because it ignored that fact, he said. The Church must reiterate that "homosexuality is still a psychological disorder," he added.

Psychologist Richard Cross noted that up to one-third of all homosexuals have tendencies toward pederasty.

This suggests that the clergy abuse problem will not be fixed as long as seminaries continue to accept homosexuals.

Two priests in vocation work now report hopeful signs in spite of the poor play the Church is getting in the media. Since the scandals in Boston broke in January, Father Tierney said he has actually been getting more inquiries than usual. "They're saying, 'I see the Church is being lambasted in the press. I've been interested in the priesthood for some time now, and I feel even more strongly about serving the Church.'"

"We're still getting candidates," Providence diocesan vocations recruiter Father Taillon said. "It's very genuine. Christ is calling them."


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: catholicchurch; homosexuality; seminaries

1 posted on 04/20/2002 4:39:26 AM PDT by cathway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: cathway
b
2 posted on 04/20/2002 4:45:17 AM PDT by Bigg Red
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cathway
Today, although most dioceses and seminaries screen candidates thoroughly, some observers question the value of the psychological tests given and caution that psychologists used by the Church do not all share the Church's understanding of human nature and sexuality

Does the Church (i.e., those at the top) have an understanding of of human nature and sexuality?
3 posted on 04/20/2002 5:00:36 AM PDT by pt17
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pt17
Yes. If you would like to know something about it, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's better to post to a thread like this with some background than to suggest that you possess the keys to wisdom.
4 posted on 04/20/2002 5:03:51 AM PDT by johniegrad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: johniegrad
Yes. If you would like to know something about it, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's better to post to a thread like this with some background than to suggest that you possess the keys to wisdom.

Two comments:

1. I was posing a question, plain and simple, for others. Did you take it as suggestive?

2. When I want to learn about the understanding of others, I'd rather draw my conclusions from behaviorial evidence rather than some written document, thank you. Words aren't worth the paper they're written on unless they are followed behaviorally.
5 posted on 04/20/2002 5:22:53 AM PDT by pt17
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: cathway
Guess Luther, Calvin et al may have been right after all?...:)
6 posted on 04/20/2002 5:34:49 AM PDT by joesnuffy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pt17
I was posing a question, plain and simple, for others

Yeah sure. How considerate of you.

When I want to learn about the understanding of others, I'd rather draw my conclusions from behaviorial evidence rather than some written document, thank you

In other words, you've never read the citation I provided you with. Oh, BTW, you're welcome.

7 posted on 04/20/2002 5:40:29 AM PDT by johniegrad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: pt17
Blame it on the Bosa Nova
8 posted on 04/20/2002 5:40:52 AM PDT by joesnuffy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: joesnuffy
Actually, he's blaming it on the (anti)Vatican Rag.
9 posted on 04/20/2002 5:42:49 AM PDT by johniegrad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: johniegrad
In other words, you've never read the citation I provided you with.

Could it be that you've now made two erroneous assumptions?
10 posted on 04/20/2002 5:44:10 AM PDT by pt17
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: pt17
No.
11 posted on 04/20/2002 5:47:39 AM PDT by johniegrad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: cathway
Everyone keeps dancing around the truth here.

The primary cause of the disproportionate number of sodomite/pedophile priests in the Roman Catholic Church is probation against marriage. It isn't necessarily the Church going out of its way to recruit sodomites, but put yourself in the shoes of a good Catholic parent. You have 2, 3 or more sons. By age 13 or 15 one of those sons has not expressed any interest in girls and your others sons have plenty to tell in confession.

Which son, do you encourage, to be a priest?

12 posted on 04/20/2002 5:48:29 AM PDT by Calculus_of_Consent
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: johniegrad
You'd be wrong, then. Good by.
13 posted on 04/20/2002 5:53:36 AM PDT by pt17
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: pt17
2. When I want to learn about the understanding of others, I'd rather draw my conclusions from behaviorial evidence rather than some written document, thank you. Words aren't worth the paper they're written on unless they are followed behaviorally.

AMEN!

Becky

14 posted on 04/20/2002 5:57:40 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: Calculus_of_Consent
Everyone keeps dancing around the truth here.

Did you notice you are no exception?

16 posted on 04/20/2002 6:05:37 AM PDT by heyheyhey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Calculus_of_Consent
You are in shallow water if you think that homos are interested in getting married to women! Try to getsome logic in your statements.

The same people that are aghast at this scandal are the SAME ones that think we should allow Gay BOY SCOUTS AND LEADERS! It;s absurd.

This is what happens when the bar is lowered.

17 posted on 04/20/2002 6:07:45 AM PDT by Ann Archy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Ann Archy
I never said homos were interested in getting married to women. I think that if priests were allowed to be married, then you would have a much larger number of heterosexuals entering the priesthood.

As it is right now, especially with American Catholic families having fewer children, the only boys I've seen encouraged to enter the priesthood have been those who displayed homosexual tendencies.

18 posted on 04/20/2002 6:15:51 AM PDT by Calculus_of_Consent
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Calculus_of_Consent
Which son, do you encourage, to be a priest?

And then ... even if the kid's encouraged at age 13 - 15 ... come on, I know you can do it ... what happens next, Calculus_of_Consent ??

Let me help ... doesn't he have to apply to ...
19 posted on 04/20/2002 6:16:09 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Lemonhead
"How come the newsmedia never reports on all of the good things hundreds of thousands of priests do everyday? I know a priest who was just sent to the Middle East. He is a handsome young guy who just wants to serve Our Lord and our country."

Well thats very commendable.. but you don't KNOW that to be the case.. I'm not saying he isn't a dedicated priest..but you do not know. The priests here in my area that were pedophiles were respected. Parishoners believed they were godly men serving our Lord but they were abusing the parish children. This is a very SERIOUS problem. Open your eyes admit their IS a problem and deal with it instead of trying to make excuses. ALL priests aren't pedophiles or gay.. I know some that are not.. and several who left the priesthood to marry and raise families. And I know one monk who lived in a monestary for many years. His comment regarding gays there.. that it is rampant. SO I am not saying the Catholic church is BAD what I am saying is LOOK directly at the problem, admit there IS a problem and DO something about it.

20 posted on 04/20/2002 6:18:10 AM PDT by Zipporah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Calculus_of_Consent
Are you a Catholic?
21 posted on 04/20/2002 6:20:56 AM PDT by Ann Archy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Zipporah
The priests here in my area that were pedophiles were respected

Which ones in Kentucky and which parishes, Sparrow?
22 posted on 04/20/2002 6:21:31 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Zipporah
Amen! Don't let Homos be priests and don't let the homos be Boy Scout Leaders....it's NO different. It's like a Fox in a hen house.

Homosexuality and the acceptance of it will be our downfall along with abortion.

23 posted on 04/20/2002 6:24:03 AM PDT by Ann Archy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Mike Fieschko
Sparrow?? Just look in the Kentucky Post.. Covington Diocese. Are you attempting to call me a liar? How pathetically sad.
24 posted on 04/20/2002 6:26:22 AM PDT by Zipporah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: Zipporah
Sparrow??

Zipporah = sparrow (or a small bird) in Hebrew.
26 posted on 04/20/2002 6:41:55 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: cathway
(Bishop Wilton Gregory - head of the U.S. bishops' conference) - said the issue of homosexuality in the priesthood deserves discussion, in terms of how it affects a priest's ability to keep his promise of living a chaste life. But while it would be helpful to examine this question, Catholic News Service reported that he said it should not necessarily be linked to the sex abuse issue.

Great. We still have liberal bishops refusing to acknowledge the root of the sexual abuse problems with the priesthood. We have a LONG way to go I'm afraid. The influx of liberal seminarians in the 60's and 70's is still a major influence on the American Catholic Church. Even here, in our little town in rural Iowa, our priest assigns members of the parish council readings from America magazine (a lefty Jesuit publication) and makes statements during homilies like "the Pope should allow women to be in the priesthood."

27 posted on 04/20/2002 6:51:57 AM PDT by PLK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Zipporah
Just look in the Kentucky Post.. Covington Diocese.

The article at cincinnati online doesn't give the names. Do you mean the Covington Diocese priests from back in the early - mid-1990s?
28 posted on 04/20/2002 7:00:37 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Mike Fieschko
You didn't do much of a search now did you? Whatever .. just live in your dreamworld... one day you just MAY wake up and guess what..your perfect world that you've created in your mind will be gone.
29 posted on 04/20/2002 7:04:40 AM PDT by Zipporah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Calculus_of_Consent
The primary cause of the disproportionate number of sodomite/pedophile priests in the Roman Catholic Church is probation against marriage.

A frequent argument that is specious. How do you explain these limited examples of Protestant abusers who are not bound by vows of celibacy? Incidentally, no one is forced to become a priest in the Western Rite of the Catholic Church. It's a choice made with free will just as the crimes are committed with free will.

30 posted on 04/20/2002 7:06:04 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
You do realize that the problem is centered on the marriage ban.. for a couple of reasons. First because it gives a very limited selection of men who would want to enter the priesthood. And because of that limited number gays and pedophiles are more likely to enter the priesthood and they have known that they would be protected. Why? Maybe because those they report to either are gay themselves or because they know that the Bishops etc will protect the church at any cost. I don't know the answer but it seems those Bishops have created a new Catholic Tradition.

The question to ask yourself is .. is the Church's ban on marriage truthfully due to what they veiw as apostolic tradition OR is it due to inheritance rights of priest's children?

31 posted on 04/20/2002 7:13:09 AM PDT by Zipporah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Bigg Red
they could hire klinton for pr. "aah didnt know anything about it until I saw it in the paper. those allegations are false. mistakes were made. this is an isolated problem. (repeat)" reno could fill in to act as a prosecutorial shill.
32 posted on 04/20/2002 7:16:43 AM PDT by galt-jw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Calculus_of_Consent
The primary cause of the disproportionate number of sodomite/pedophile priests in the Roman Catholic Church is probation against marriage. It isn't necessarily the Church going out of its way to recruit sodomites, but put yourself in the shoes of a good Catholic parent. You have 2, 3 or more sons. By age 13 or 15 one of those sons has not expressed any interest in girls and your others sons have plenty to tell in confession

um, no. lets see, I am really attracted to women, but cant have any. cant have any sex at all. oh look, lets go bugger a child, or a dog, or a canned ham. they can pick up a female prostitute just as well as a male one. there aint no way you can switch. either you are into that evil crap or you are not. you could get a hummer from a crack ho and be done with it in an hour, or spend weeks and months plotting and scheming to get the kids alone and convince them to allow these sick advances.

33 posted on 04/20/2002 7:21:10 AM PDT by galt-jw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Zipporah
the problem is centered on the marriage ban
And does any Catholic suggest you should start eating pork?
34 posted on 04/20/2002 7:27:17 AM PDT by heyheyhey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Zipporah
You didn't do much of a search now did you?

You directed me (in post 24) to the Kentucky Post and the Covington Diocese.

So, when I went to the Post and did a keyword search on "Covington" "Diocese" "priest", that's what I came up with. What time period ought I to look at?
35 posted on 04/20/2002 7:28:22 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: PLK
This myth that somehow it all began with the 60/70s is rather misleading. As in most areas of society pre 1966 there was as much abuse but it was swept under the carpet or ignored. Which Catholic parishioner would dare criticise a priest in Boston, Limerick or Seville before the 1960s?
36 posted on 04/20/2002 7:32:39 AM PDT by sussex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Zipporah
is the Church's ban on marriage truthfully due to what they veiw as apostolic tradition OR is it due to inheritance rights of priest's children?

Please tell us what books and authors establish that the requirement of celibacy dating back to at least A.D. 235 (See the 'Refutation of all heresies' by Hippolytus of Rome) is because of inheritance.
37 posted on 04/20/2002 7:37:05 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: joesnuffy
Luther commented (What Luther Says) that in his day the people worshiped as gods the cardinals who were satisfied with a woman. The problem is very old and I think almost immune to reform within the Church of Rome. There are too many old queens in high positions.
38 posted on 04/20/2002 7:41:06 AM PDT by Chemnitz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: cathway
Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls linked the two when he addressed the issue of homosexuality and the priesthood in March, saying that men with homosexual inclinations "just cannot be ordained."

Does this mean that the United Way will stop passing money to Catholic Charities?

The Boy Scouts and now the Catholic Church see the light! AMEN!!!!

39 posted on 04/20/2002 7:50:44 AM PDT by kapn kuek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cathway
Thanks for an informative and well written article.
40 posted on 04/20/2002 8:08:59 AM PDT by smorgle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cathway; PLK; Zipporah; Calculus_of_Consent; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; pt17
The loss of money, and only the loss of money, will cause Rome to move away from its historical propensity for issuing proclamations to excuse its responsibility in the unleashing of degenerates among the innocent.

Rome can no longer publicly argue it is uninformed; that His Church isn't a cesspool of depravity and complicity the darkest of sins; that its arrogant pretense and protection of evil was not responsible for fostering and crippling its authority as THE source in implementing and forgiving any violation of His Law.

Rome is a sinner without shame; piously issuing proclamations of repentance, while its silence toward the thousands who became pawns for the physically and psychologically deformed continues.

Vanity is source of this sin. Rome is the unrepentant sinner.

A public confession, strict adherence to His Law and an excomunication of internal evil is imperative. Now.

41 posted on 04/20/2002 8:33:48 AM PDT by Robert Drobot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
It's a choice made with free will just as the crimes are committed with free will.

You are absolutely right. All I saying is that is one of the major reason this culture, for want of a better word, seems to have developed in the RC church is the probation against married priests and the law of unintended consequences.

42 posted on 04/20/2002 9:37:35 AM PDT by Calculus_of_Consent
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Ann Archy
Are you a Catholic?

Yes. Just not a very good one.

43 posted on 04/20/2002 9:47:07 AM PDT by Calculus_of_Consent
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Mike Fieschko
The Eastern Church, i.e. Orthodoxy, welcomes married priests. They must marry before ordination. Interestingly their Bishops must remain celibate. The Church will consecrate widowers. An ambitious man or a pecularly devoted man might choose celibacy before ordination. But the hierarchy carefully vets against homosexuality.
44 posted on 04/20/2002 11:24:16 AM PDT by born yesterday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: born yesterday
The Eastern Church, i.e. Orthodoxy, welcomes married priests.

In the Catholic Church, the Latin Rite has the discipline of celibacy. Some of Her other Rites do not.

May Orthodox priests marry after ordination?
45 posted on 04/20/2002 11:27:23 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Mike Fieschko
I will refer you to something else.. Pro 16:18 Pride [goeth] before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. seems you and several other of your 'brethern' need a good dose of humility.

I did NOT state that as a FACT that celibacy has to do with inheritance etc.. I said IF. You are rather pathetic to say the least.. in your vehement defense of the indefensable you attempt to discredit me..? Why? I have no clue....

I did NOT tell you to LOOK up the Covington Diocese ..you asked where so I told you.. and I told you which paper..IF you can't have the common sense to look up key words..then too bad. I think the truth is, you don't WANT TO FIND THE TRUTH.. sad really..

46 posted on 04/20/2002 2:53:50 PM PDT by Zipporah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: heyheyhey
And does any Catholic suggest you should start eating pork?

AH a Roman Catholic ANTI-SEMITE .. too funny.

47 posted on 04/20/2002 2:57:36 PM PDT by Zipporah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Zipporah
I will refer you to something else.. Pro 16:18 Pride [goeth] before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. seems you and several other of your 'brethern' need a good dose of humility.

I did NOT state that as a FACT that celibacy has to do with inheritance etc.. I said IF. You are rather pathetic to say the least.. in your vehement defense of the indefensable you attempt to discredit me..? Why? I have no clue....

I did NOT tell you to LOOK up the Covington Diocese ..you asked where so I told you.. and I told you which paper..IF you can't have the common sense to look up key words..then too bad. I think the truth is, you don't WANT TO FIND THE TRUTH.. sad really..


If what I typed or the phrasing I used was offensive, then I apologize. It was not meant to be puffed up with pride, smart-alecky, offensive, demeaning, or to discredit, or humiliate you.

If calling you 'Sparrow' instead of 'Zipporah' was any of that, I apologize.

If I can't find something with a search engine, well, I can't.

If I try to defend celibacy (I think that's what you mean by the indefensible), then I try. It didn't seem 'vehement' when I typed it, but that's how I saw what I typed.
48 posted on 04/20/2002 4:49:42 PM PDT by Mike Fieschko
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Calculus_of_Consent
Yes. Just not a very good one.

God loves all of us. Why do you judge yourself so harshly?

I'll say a prayer for you.

49 posted on 04/25/2002 7:50:31 PM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Calculus_of_Consent
Where are your facts that married men will be flocking to the pristhood? I see these blanket statements everywhere, the avereage priest makes $18K a year, and works a 16 hour day. So, where is he going to make up that extra money and be able to satisfy a wife and many children. You think all these presently married men are going to quit their jobs and flock to become priests? And when is a single priest going to find time to date a woman? And what happenes when that priest's wife wants a divorce?

Or, who is going to support all those kids these married priests are going to have? Remember no birth control. We had to let a priest go because we couldn't afford to keep him, he was paid by the mass to assist my pastor. Now he does all the masses by himself.

50 posted on 04/25/2002 8:10:41 PM PDT by Coleus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson