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Pope blunt before U.S. cardinals
MSNBC ^ | April 23, 2002 | NBC, MSNBC AND NEWS SERVICES

Posted on 04/23/2002 7:11:21 AM PDT by history_matters

  VATICAN CITY, April 23 —   Pope John Paul II bluntly told American cardinals Tuesday that sex abuse by priests is “rightly considered a crime by society,” and that there is no place in religious life for abusers. The pontiff made his comments — his strongest yet since allegations of sexual abuse of children by priests began pouring in this year — during an extraordinary meeting between U.S. cardinals and Vatican officials.

       THE POWERFUL and specific words by the pope could have a determining effect on whether the Catholic Church in the United States formulates policy to automatically hand over pedophile priests to civil authorities — what some have called a “one strike and you’re out” standard.

       “The abuse which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society; it is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God,” the pope told the closed-door meeting. “To the victims and their families wherever they may be, I express my profound sense of solidarity and concern.”

       “People need to know that there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young,” the pope added, according to the official English text of the speech released by the Vatican.

       The meeting opened a day after a report that a move was afoot by fellow cardinals to force the resignation of embattled Boston Cardinal Bernard Law, accused of mishandling sex abuse cases.

       At a press conference held after the pope’s speech, a senior U.S. cardinal, Chicago’s Francis George, said the topic had not come up during meetings with Vatican officials. But George noted that Law told the group that “if he hadn’t made some terrible mistakes, we probably all wouldn’t be here.”

 The pope, for his part, did not address the issue directly, but he did say “bishops and superiors are concerned above all else with the spiritual good of souls.”

       “I ask Catholics to stay close to their priests and bishops and support them with their prayers at this difficult time,” he added.

       The Roman Catholic Church in the United States has been rocked by waves of sex abuse scandals that have shaken the confidence of the faithful, led to the resignation of one bishop, and cost the church millions of dollars in legal settlements. Church officials have been accused of covering up misconduct by priests, in some cases by moving known abusers from job to job.

       Bishop William Skylstad, who is attending the talks as vice president of the U.S. Conference of Bishops, told NBC’s “Today” show that there has been “very strong discussion” of a national standard for dealing with sexual abuse and that more details might emerge when the talks conclude on Wednesday. A final decision, however, would not be made until U.S. bishops and cardinals meet in June, he noted.

       Ahead of Tuesday’s meeting with the pope, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington, D.C., insisted that Law should stay in his place and insisted that the agenda in the meetings boil down to one thing.

       “We’ve got to make sure that people can trust their priests,” he said. “We are here to find out what we can do, in concert with the Holy See, to create an environment that is safe for children.”

        ACTION ON LAW UNLIKELY NOW

       The ultimate fate of Law, accused of knowingly transferring pedophile priests from parish to parish instead of defrocking them, seems highly unlikely to figure in the closed-door meeting that concludes Wednesday night, despite what is said in personal conversations.

       No cardinal spoke publicly about Law’s possible resignation, but a Los Angeles Times report quickly spread around the Vatican.

       The report Monday quoted a cardinal, who spoke to the Times on condition of anonymity, as saying that several U.S. cardinals would push the Vatican to ask Law to resign.

       McCarrick said he had not heard of an anti-Law push. “If some felt very strongly, they would speak to him privately. I can’t see a cabal.”

       “The trouble began on his watch and he wants to fix it. Give him a chance,” McCarrick told reporters.

       Upon his arrival in Rome on Monday, Law declined to answer questions about his trip to Rome earlier this month to discuss his possible resignation with the pope.

       Law said he had made his position clear in a statement Sunday in Boston, in which he called the scandal a “wake-up call” for the Catholic Church that “must spark immediate and decisive changes.”

‘SEASON FOR ACTION’

       Underscoring the urgency here, the head of the U.S. Conference of Bishops, Wilton Gregory of Belleville, Ill., told a media briefing that “we’ve passed the time for mea culpas. We’re in the season for action.”

       The ongoing Law saga aside, differences could emerge among bishops — and with the Vatican — over whether homosexuals should be barred from the priesthood and whether to relax the Catholic rule that priests be celibate.

       McCarrick agreed with the pope’s weekend remarks that were interpreted as taking celibacy off the agenda. “It’s a straw man to bring that up at this time,” he insisted.

       Church officials have said the pedophile scandals have deeply affected the pope, who turns 82 next month. John Paul suffers from the symptoms of Parkinson’s disease and has recently been forced to reduce his participation in long ceremonies because of knee pain.

       Boston became the epicenter of the controversy in January, when reports disclosed that Law and other church leaders had reassigned a priest accused of pedophilia.

       The aftershocks of these revelations have since been felt in parishes throughout the country as additional reports of abuse have come to light.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cardinallaw; cardinals; catholic; catholiccaucus; catholicchurch; johnpaulii; pope; sexcrimes; vatican
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1 posted on 04/23/2002 7:11:21 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: Slyfox; Aunt Polgara; Codie; ELS; katnip;viadexter; pax_et_bonum; Romulus; GenXFreedomFighter...
p i n g
2 posted on 04/23/2002 7:12:02 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
I am convinced that Law must resign/be fired.

1. It would be in line with "justice." Law KNEW what he was doing.

2. It would make GREAT media sense. The others could then move on and point out "what has been done."

3. It would give the Pope the opportunity to put a HEALER in Boston.

3 posted on 04/23/2002 7:18:56 AM PDT by xzins
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To: history_matters
But George noted that Law told the group that “if he hadn’t made some terrible mistakes, we probably all wouldn’t be here.”

What is this supposed to mean? To my knowledge, Cardinal Law still hasn't said what he should have done with the practicing homosexual and pedophile priests.

4 posted on 04/23/2002 7:20:55 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: history_matters
Thanks for the ping. I hope Law is removed or resigns, either one is fine with me.
5 posted on 04/23/2002 7:23:46 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: history_matters
Do these paper-pushers really think they can combat evil and heal the sickness of souls with a bureaucratic solution? Does anyone else understand that by turning all attention on treating the symptom instead of the disease, the hierarchy's threatening to institutionalise sexual abuse as a problem that can be managed -- a disagreeable but inevitable cost of doing business?

Unfit priests do not materialise out of thin air. They come from corrupt seminaries, which draw upon an ignorant, secularised laity that's been wandering in the desert for 40 years, systematically denied the spiritual and catechectical rigor to identify and resist the wolves who've come among them.

6 posted on 04/23/2002 7:29:13 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: history_matters
"At a press conference held after the pope’s speech, a senior U.S. cardinal, Chicago’s Francis George, said the topic had not come up during meetings with Vatican officials. But George noted that Law told the group that “if he hadn’t made some terrible mistakes, we probably all wouldn’t be here.”

True. And they would still be going around doing business as usual. Thank God for Law's cowardice!

7 posted on 04/23/2002 7:30:34 AM PDT by redhead
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To: american colleen
IMO, the big problem that the Vatican should be talking about with these cardinals is practicing homosexuals in the priesthood. Take them out of ministry until reparative therapy can help them regain their heterosexual ways (years of therapy under Dr. J. Nicolosi therapy methods), or , if they refuse, defrock the bunch of them. These perverts have screwed up the Church with their heterodox teachings and immoral behavior.
8 posted on 04/23/2002 7:33:31 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: history_matters
McCarrick said he had not heard of an anti-Law push. “If some felt very strongly, they would speak to him privately. I can’t see a cabal.”
“The trouble began on his watch and he wants to fix it. Give him a chance,” McCarrick told reporters.

No, the trouble did not begin on Bernie's watch. The vast majority of this abuse took place before he ever arrived in Boston, but his handling of the abusers, when he learned of them, is the reason all of them are in Rome.

I find it interesting, this 'whisper' campaign to get rid of him. I tend to agree with McCarrick, let's see what he does in Boston to clean up the mess and make sure it never happens again.

9 posted on 04/23/2002 7:37:11 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: history_matters
.

The abuse which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society; it is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God. To the victims and their families, wherever they may be, I express my profound sense of solidarity and concern.

People need to know that there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young.

We must refer all allegations to proper civil investigators for objective investigations.

10 posted on 04/23/2002 7:40:21 AM PDT by rbmillerjr
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To: SuziQ
No, the trouble did not begin on Bernie's watch. The vast majority of this abuse took place before he ever arrived in Boston, but his handling of the abusers, when he learned of them, is the reason all of them are in Rome.

True, but what upsets people the most is Cardinal Law's transferring Shanley (possible co-founder of NAMBLA) to California with a glowing letter of recommendation. You should read that letter, along with the kind, pastoral letters to Geoghan commending him on his years of service. Read about Shanley's lifestyle over the years - sick and perverted. Cardinal Law knew all about Shanley and yet sent him among the unsuspecting sheep here in Boston and then on to California. I cannot fathom that.

Cardinal Law is almost reviled here in Boston right now. Getting rid of him will not "fix" the problem, but IMO, Cardinal Law is a detriment to the Church. I hope the Pope looks beyond the current "outing" of the homosexuals in the priesthood and deals with the underlying reason for it. Any US Cardinal that is not obedient to Rome in every way needs to be replaced.

11 posted on 04/23/2002 7:50:11 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: ThomasMore
IMO, the big problem that the Vatican should be talking about with these cardinals is practicing homosexuals in the priesthood. Take them out of ministry until reparative therapy can help them regain their heterosexual ways (years of therapy under Dr. J. Nicolosi therapy methods), or , if they refuse, defrock the bunch of them. These perverts have screwed up the Church with their heterodox teachings and immoral behavior.

Yes, but how do you know if a priest is a practicing homosexual? Plus, I don't think we can afford to foot the bill for years of therapy if the numbers of homosexual priests are correct - it ain't just a few!

sigh.

12 posted on 04/23/2002 7:53:09 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: history_matters
If a number of the bishops and cardinals who reassigned the pedophiles are gay, Who is forced to step down first? The enabler or the perpetrator?
13 posted on 04/23/2002 7:54:27 AM PDT by spald
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To: american colleen
You may be right, which leaves us with only one alternative.
14 posted on 04/23/2002 8:00:26 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: history_matters
George noted that Law told the group that “if he hadn’t made some terrible mistakes, we probably all wouldn’t be here.”

Maybe Cardinal George should be looking in the mirror....

The following is posted on the Roman Catholic Faithful website...

 

Chicago’s Archdiocesan Gay and Lesbian Outreach (AGLO)

Francis Cardinal George betrays his flock. Is he fit to serve?

In the September 20, 2000 issue of the Chicago Sun-Times there appeared an article titled: STEPPING INTO THE LIGHT -Group for gay Catholics expands to south suburbs, By Cathleen Falsani, Suburban Reporter in which the Sun Times announced:

The Archdiocese of Chicago's ministry to gay and lesbian Catholics is expanding to the suburbs. Cardinal Francis George has given the go-ahead for the Archdiocesan Gay and Lesbian Outreach program -- known as AGLO -- to set up its first suburban outpost at St. Emeric's Church in Country Club Hills.

 

...go here for the rest.

15 posted on 04/23/2002 8:02:56 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: ThomasMore
You may be right, which leaves us with only one alternative.

WHAT????

16 posted on 04/23/2002 8:10:23 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: ThomasMore
Cardinal George needs to go just as badly as Cardinal Law.
17 posted on 04/23/2002 8:11:00 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
?if he hadn?t made some terrible mistakes, we probably all wouldn?t be here.?

Sounds like right out of Clinton's Playbook

MISTAKES WERE MADE

Going to be very interesting to see what Buckley , Bennet, and Buchanan editorialize and also ho w the Catholics in Boston react
18 posted on 04/23/2002 8:12:40 AM PDT by uncbob
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To: history_matters
McCarrick agreed with the pope’s weekend remarks that were interpreted as taking celibacy off the agenda. “It’s a straw man to bring that up at this time,” he insisted.
This from the man who just last week insisted the problem of predator priests was media hype. Wake up, Ted.
19 posted on 04/23/2002 8:33:22 AM PDT by eastsider
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To: american colleen
Defrock those priests who are practicing homosexuals!

You ask, Yes, but how do you know if a priest is a practicing homosexual?

-- First, most straight priests already know.
-- Re-establish fraternal community amongst diocesan priests.
-- No more bed-and breakfast ownership. Nor vacation homes in ProvinceTown or Fire Island. The Holy Father just said that the life of a priest should be "austere". You can't have austere in a bed-and-breakfast ownership.
-- Making it public that active homosexuality will lead to defrocking.
-- Don't be afraid to be on the lookout for it.
-- Do things to make it impossible for them to be priests, starting with seminaries.

This is not a witch hunt; this is just prudence in critical times.

20 posted on 04/23/2002 8:39:39 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: ThomasMore
re: #20 - I'll go with that!
21 posted on 04/23/2002 9:05:33 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: history_matters
Since when are priests immune to civil law? Last I heard, sexual abuse of a minor was a crime. Apparently, there is no statute of limitations, since I have heard of cases prosicuted 40 years after the fact. If the hierarchy of the church knew of the actions, and did not come forward, they then should be charged for conceiling evidence of a crime and an accessory after the fact.
22 posted on 04/23/2002 9:21:27 AM PDT by maximus@Nashville
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To: maximus@Nashville
Apparently, there is no statute of limitations, since I have heard of cases prosicuted 40 years after the fact.

Each State has its own statutes of limitation, and there's one for civil (private) cases, and a different one for criminal cases.

Forty years sounds out of bounds. Which case was the 40 year old one?

Sometimes a civil statute of limitation may be extended and withstand constitutional challenge. Extending criminal statutes of limitation and making the extension retroactive can legitimately be challenged.
23 posted on 04/23/2002 9:41:41 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: ThomasMore; american colleen
Ditto. Agreed. BUMP
24 posted on 04/23/2002 10:14:49 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: ThomasMore; history_matters
Something positive has to happen with the Pope calling the cardinals to Rome. For years, a number of the American bishops have went their merry ways ignoring this Pope. Now he has their attention. Let me describe what this Pope has done in the past with at least one pervert. I am working from memory here so if anyone has extra details please add them.

In the eighties, there was a bishop in New Jersey, and I can not remember his name, who was causing a lot of grief among the faithful. People started complaining to Rome, writing letters and such. This bishop favored homosexuals and was galavanting with them to the extent that he would have parties on his boat on the Jersey shore where a good time was had by all. It did not go unnoticed by Rome. Well, during this bishop's ad limina visit to Rome where he meets with the Pope, once every five years, and gives him a personal report, this bishop entered the Pope's office. JPII was sitting behind his desk and he invited this bishop to be seated and asked him about his diocese. The bishop began to talk about this and that program and how successful he has been, painting a very glowing picture of his diocese. When he started to wind down JPII asked him if that was all and the bishop said yes. "Are you sure?" asked the Pope, as he got up from his desk and proceeded to place boxes of letters written to him by people in his diocese complaining about him. It wasn't just a few letters, it covered the entire desk at least three feet high. Then, our dear Pope explained what was written in the letters and quizzed this bishop about his untoward activities. Having been deeply humiliated that the Pope had found out about him, this bishop agreed to step down as bishop. He was relieved of his duty. I can not remember his name but that doesn't matter.

This Pope acted decisively, but he has never had the bishops attention before like this present scandal has provided. Let us pray that something truly substantial will take place and that the good and faithful bishops will clean house and set all of their brothers straight. The abusers should feel the long arm of the law. The Pope can not do it alone.

25 posted on 04/23/2002 10:16:21 AM PDT by Slyfox
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To: american colleen
Every U.S.Cardinal,not obedient to Rome in every way needs to be replaced.

That is so true and the bishops need the same treatment.

26 posted on 04/23/2002 10:19:26 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: Slyfox
This bishop favored homosexuals and was galavanting with them to the extent that he would have parties on his boat on the Jersey shore where a good time was had by all. It did not go unnoticed by Rome.

It would be good to find out this bishop's name for more credibility. I believe you, but a name would help the example. These types of bishops are not a few. Reginald Cawcutt is bishop of South Africa and openly gay. They must all go!! We need to help the Holy Father through honest concern and active disdain for their immoral behavior. I guess writing to the Holy Father really does work.

27 posted on 04/23/2002 10:34:44 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Slyfox
"Are you sure?" asked the Pope, as he got up from his desk and proceeded to place boxes of letters written to him by people in his diocese complaining about him. It wasn't just a few letters, it covered the entire desk at least three feet high. Then, our dear Pope explained what was written in the letters and quizzed this bishop about his untoward activities. Having been deeply humiliated that the Pope had found out about him, this bishop agreed to step down as bishop. He was relieved of his duty. I can not remember his name but that doesn't matter.

The lesson is.... WRITE LETTERS!
28 posted on 04/23/2002 10:38:16 AM PDT by Antoninus
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To: uncbob
Clinton's playbook for sure.
29 posted on 04/23/2002 10:38:30 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: Antoninus
To register your disgust with the Archdiocese of New York for distancing itself from Msgr. Clark's Sunday homily at St. Patrick's, write to:

Mr. Joe Zwilling
Archdiocese of New York
1011 First Avenue
New York NY 10022-4134

212-371-1000 is the general phone number for the Archdiocese.

You can write letters of support to Msgr. Clark at:

Monsignor Eugene Clark
460 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10022-6863

And send a letter to Cardinal Egan:

H.E. Edward Cardinal Egan
452 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10022-6864

30 posted on 04/23/2002 10:42:35 AM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
Practicing homosexuals and lesbians, as well as anyone habitually engaging in mortal sin with no intent to amend their ways, commit sacrilege when they receive communion imo.
31 posted on 04/23/2002 10:45:41 AM PDT by Aliska
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To: Slyfox
He was relieved of his duty. I can not remember his name but that doesn't matter.

Surely a bishop stepping down made the news.I would like to see the story

How are you aware of what the Pope did ?
32 posted on 04/23/2002 10:48:59 AM PDT by uncbob
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To: ThomasMore
I am presently going through all my old Wanderer's.
I remember the whole event just forgot his name.
That's why I asked if any NJ freepers knew.
33 posted on 04/23/2002 11:07:10 AM PDT by Slyfox
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To: uncbob
HOW?

I am a faithful Wanderer reader. The Catholic newpaper hated by Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin and liberal Catholics, especially liberal chancery offices.

34 posted on 04/23/2002 11:10:33 AM PDT by Slyfox
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To: Aliska
when they receive communion imo.

An opinion also shared by the Church, meaning the Magisterium.

35 posted on 04/23/2002 11:12:33 AM PDT by Slyfox
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To: history_matters
It's NOT enough. It's not just about pedophilia- although that is the worst sin/crime- it's about HOMOSEXUALITY. I do not want ONE homosexual priest in the Church. It goes against the basics of the religion they are supposed to represent. How is the thought of homosexual adult seminarians or priests having sex with each other any less WRONG than having homosexual sex with young children? Celibacy is supposed to be about NO SEX AT ALL, not just 'no sex with females' and 'no sex with children'. The idea of homosexual priests practicing their deviancy while presenting themselves as God's servants is sickening. It's worse than hypocrisy! I say this as a Roman Catholic, from a family that has been Roman Catholic since the 1400's, and a woman who came very close to joining a convent. NOT ONE homosexual priest should there be in the Church. If that leaves ONE priest per continent- so be it. Jesus started everything with just 12.
36 posted on 04/23/2002 11:17:16 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: bookworm89
maybe it is the politically correct apostate church of the end times.

I think the political correctness cult is the apostate church of the end times. It will be a religion based on man and sin. If the Catholic church joins it, it just adds to their numbers and their power. Especially if a church of God supports the anti-Christs message. There will be a lamb of God that will endorse the Anti-Christ. It could very well be the Catholic church, but time will tell. If the Church changes its ways, it will be saved. If not, it's in for a rough ride.

38 posted on 04/23/2002 12:27:04 PM PDT by concerned about politics
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To: ThomasMore
You ask, Yes, but how do you know if a priest is a practicing homosexual?

Next they will come up with the don't ask, don't tell rule.

39 posted on 04/23/2002 12:29:42 PM PDT by TexKat
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To: Romulus
Unfit priests do not materialise out of thin air. They come from corrupt seminaries, which draw upon an ignorant, secularised laity that's been wandering in the desert for 40 years, systematically denied the spiritual and catechectical rigor to identify and resist the wolves who've come among them.

Perhaps the corrupt seminaries are being discussed. If a cardinal or bishop mentioned it to a reporter off the record I doubt it would be reported. In fact, I doubt it would be reported even if the pope said something about it. It would probably be "paraphrased."

FYI, Rose will be the guest on an upcoming Catholic Answers program.

40 posted on 04/23/2002 12:38:07 PM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
FYI, Rose will be the guest on an upcoming Catholic Answers program.

Rosie O'Donell? About that apostate church...... LOL

41 posted on 04/23/2002 12:42:42 PM PDT by concerned about politics
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To: Romulus
"Do these paper-pushers really think they can combat evil and heal the sickness of souls with a bureaucratic solution? Does anyone else understand that by turning all attention on treating the symptom instead of the disease, the hierarchy's threatening to institutionalise sexual abuse as a problem that can be managed -- a disagreeable but inevitable cost of doing business? Unfit priests do not materialise out of thin air. They come from corrupt seminaries, which draw upon an ignorant, secularised laity that's been wandering in the desert for 40 years, systematically denied the spiritual and catechectical rigor to identify and resist the wolves who've come among them."

Excellent post. What you said beared repeating....many times

42 posted on 04/23/2002 12:47:18 PM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: ClearBlueSky
I do not want ONE homosexual priest in the Church.

You may have to start your own church to make this happen...
43 posted on 04/23/2002 12:54:29 PM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: bookworm89
why aren't the catholics outraged?

They are! BTW, the Catholic Church is not the apostate Church. That may be wishful thinking for some.

44 posted on 04/23/2002 12:55:25 PM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: concerned about politics
Rosie O'Donell? About that apostate church...... LOL

You outta stick with politics!

45 posted on 04/23/2002 12:59:06 PM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: history_matters
Unfortunately, I suspect there are more cardinals involved in covering these things up than just Law. If they vote to remove him they'd be signing their own resignations as well. They haven't shown much backbone, so don't hold your breath.
46 posted on 04/23/2002 1:07:38 PM PDT by Endeavor
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To: american colleen
You are right on the money. After seeing Dateline last week and learning of Law's participation in perpetuating the careers of some of the predatory priests, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and remedy.
47 posted on 04/23/2002 1:26:06 PM PDT by Endeavor
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Slyfox
I vaguely remember this too.

This is how JP2 used to be.

I guess he either got old, or hoodwinked by the dudes around him.

Old makes sense.

But hoodwinked, no.

Anyone who can read eight languages or more, can sure as heck get a copy of the Wanderer every now and then.

But I keep thinking about the Bishop who married the moonie chick, and got cracked on by JP2 immediately.

This was not too long ago, either.

This struggle may be the old man's last, and I hope he goes out with a bang by really shaking up the liberals, pervs, and homos in the Church.

49 posted on 04/23/2002 3:06:02 PM PDT by caddie
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To: uncbob
I would recommend reading the Wanderer, even if you are not a Catholic, because it would really open your eyes about suppressed news stories around the world.

Insofar as FR is a good source of otherwise-suppressed news, the Wanderer is even more so.

Very well written, very true to the Church, VERY hated by most liberals in the Church.

I have never heard of a priest admit privately or publicly that he has ever read the Wanderer. Interesting.

I have never heard a news article or editorial EVER mentioned by a priest in a sermon, or privately.

That, in light of the current war in the Church, is truly amazing.

To me it says, the Wanderer is dead on target.

The priests avoid mentioning it like the plague.

50 posted on 04/23/2002 3:11:38 PM PDT by caddie
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