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C# striking a chord with programmers
CNET News.com | May 3, 2002, 3:35 PM PT | Wylie Wong

Posted on 05/04/2002 11:54:48 AM PDT by Bush2000

Microsoft's new C# programming language is gaining in popularity, with usage nearly doubling in the last six months, a new study shows. C# is Microsoft's new Java-like language and a crucial piece in the software company's .Net Web services strategy, in which software is made available over the Net to be accessed by multiple devices, such as PCs, cell phones and handhelds.

Twelve percent of all North American software developers have begun using C#, up from 7 percent six months ago, according to a new survey by market research firm Evans Data. The firm also predicts that the number of programmers using C# will double to 24 percent in the next year.

The majority of developers using C# are only dabbling with the new language, however. Most current C# programmers are using the new language for less than 20 percent of their development work, choosing other languages for the brunt of their work, the survey of about 800 developers showed.

C# is not displacing any languages, because most C# users are trying out the technology instead of committing to it wholeheartedly, an Evans Data representative said.

Evans reports that C# is popular among users of Microsoft's Visual Basic programming language and among those developers using Extensible Markup Language (XML). The C# language is less popular with Java developers, Evans reports.

Microsoft is using C# in its battle for software developers. The company's .Net Web services plan is up against rival technologies sold by Sun Microsystems, inventor of the Java language, and other Java backers, such as Oracle, IBM and BEA Systems


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Technical
KEYWORDS: c; microsoft; techindex
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1 posted on 05/04/2002 11:54:48 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: *Microsoft;*Tech_index
Check the Bump List folders for articles related to and descriptions of the above topic(s) or for other topics of interest.
2 posted on 05/04/2002 11:58:11 AM PDT by Free the USA
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To: Bush2000
The majority of developers using C# are only dabbling with the new language, however...

C# is not displacing any languages, because most C# users are trying out the technology instead of committing to it wholeheartedly, an Evans Data representative said.

So let's see.... nobody has decided to replace Java with C#. Sounds like a total victory for Microsoft.

</sarcasm

3 posted on 05/04/2002 12:29:04 PM PDT by Fractal Trader
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To: Bush2000
C# is identical to the new version of Visual Basic. MS added a bunch of very cool features to VB that is backward compatable with VB 6.0 and almost identical to C#

VB.NET == C#

C# = VB.NET

The choice between using VB and C# is more a matter of taste than a serious technology choice. The manuals for each language are almost identical and they give you the VB and C# syntax for every class libarary method. The reason C# will destroy Java is that C# can be compiled down to binary, Java is terrible for writing User Interface programs, Java is slow and usually runs on a buggy Virtual machine, and Java is not portable, while with C# the issue is who cares about portability.

C++ is still not totally obsolete and will remain a core langage for doing high performance graphics until MS gives me a replacement for COleControl in C#

I am working on a project in C# to view DNA Sequences and I hope to have it available on the net in a couple of weeks. I took a look at Human Chromosome 5 in my viewer this week and I am trying to make a generic DNA viewer for examining Sequences and performing Protein, cross linking, Coiling, and search operations. There is an entire new field of Bio-Informatics that is going to change the future even more than the invention of the Semiconductor chip changed the present. I hope to have something to show by next week. The real trick in computer programming is Installation, because any idiot can write good software with the tools available these days.

It is not an established fact that any new C# code is going to be running on my customers computers.

Software is easy, installation is hard.

4 posted on 05/04/2002 12:33:34 PM PDT by CTB999
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To: Bush2000
I've begun using C#. Since I'm familiar with, but no expert on Java, it's intuitive to learn.

Not bad, so far.

5 posted on 05/04/2002 12:36:53 PM PDT by rdb3
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To: Bush2000
Here again, Bill has taken someone's clunky old application and improved it. Like Ben Franklin who admittedly never invented anything but instead improved on existing products, Bill continues in the same manner. Of course he will probably be dragged into court when Java begins to be threatened and another ruling will be made against him for being the most prolific innovater in a century (the court ruling however will cite coersion, extortion, fraud, and a number of other items that are always fired at the guy at the top). Hey Bill, go boy!
It appears that if the previous court rulings were really serious, Bill would be suffering. Instead I submit that it was a slap on his wrist so the government could position themselves as having done something for the whiners who were complacent about their products that Bill improved upon and wanted a court ruling as opposed to getting off their complacent a$$es and improving their own products.
6 posted on 05/04/2002 12:57:25 PM PDT by ThinkLikeWaterAndReeds
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To: CTB999
The reason C# will destroy Java is that C# can be compiled down to binary, Java is terrible for writing User Interface programs, Java is slow and usually runs on a buggy Virtual machine, and Java is not portable, while with C# the issue is who cares about portability.

If you are writing Java on Windows, then it isn't portable, but every other version of Java I've used runs anywhere. There are complilers available that take Java source code and generate machine code, which isn't portable. C# normally generates CLI not machine code which runs on the .NET runtime engine (which isn't portable yet) and is very similar to the Java virtual engine.

If you want to write in C# you can, but please be accurate about what C# and Java are.

I'm afraid Java and C# will die from the same cause, bloat. The core languages while being small is lost to the very large number of library functions you have to learn to take advantage of the language.

7 posted on 05/04/2002 1:00:30 PM PDT by DrDavid
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To: Bush2000
According to a developer buddy of mine, C# is essentially "C++ for Dummies".
8 posted on 05/04/2002 1:03:20 PM PDT by Still Thinking
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To: Still Thinking
According to a developer buddy of mine, C# is essentially "C++ for Dummies".

WTF do you think Java is ...
9 posted on 05/04/2002 1:26:48 PM PDT by Bush2000
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To: Fractal Trader
So let's see.... nobody has decided to replace Java with C#. Sounds like a total victory for Microsoft

Give it time. It will double or triple its market share every year. You can extrapolate where that places it in 5 years...
10 posted on 05/04/2002 1:27:53 PM PDT by Bush2000
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: expatriot
"20% of 12% = 2.4% of 800 respondents use C#"

Heh heh...

Like my bubbi used to say... "You never hear a fish monger yelling 'Rotten fish for sale!'"

12 posted on 05/04/2002 1:41:56 PM PDT by Harrison Bergeron
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To: Bush2000
Crappy runtime + incompatibility with most Unixes + poor scalability + paid astroturf advertorials like this + 90% current MS market share in OSes = ?
13 posted on 05/04/2002 2:01:29 PM PDT by ikka
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To: all
C# is not displacing any languages, because most C# users are trying out the technology instead of committing to it wholeheartedly, an Evans Data representative said.

I'm surprised only 14% have tried it. Most everyone I know has tried C#. Most Java developers checked it out, looking to see if we could do anything better. I built a few small reporting components, and a Jeapordy game.

Many problems, but some promise. Most of the problems are architectural, and can be worked out over the next few years.

So far, C# is a nice first implementation with a lot of problems. If it survies 3 years, and fixes a bunch of the problems, it *should* start being used on some production systems.

But as of now, .NET is Java with the scalability, reliability and cross platform taken out.

You notice this was posted by the unethical MS salesman. I'm certain that the 20% of programming shops out there that are MS-only will migrate to this -- eventually.

The other 80% likely won't.

Oh, and if anyone is suggesting .NET is ready for production systems now . . . well, only salesmen and college students use a 1.0 version of *anything* for mission critical work. And they're *always* sorry. Especially with MS offerings.

MS has is famous for their history of selling buggy tech which the salesmen promise is ready, a history of not making even usable tools for the first 4 or 5 releases that the salesmen tell you is the world's best. So like with all MS technology, use this at your own risk. There are certainly built-in problems that MS either doesn't yet know about or isn't telling anyone about. Just like all their other stuff. There are already serious unpatched security issues with .NET web services (no surprise there).

But do use .NET. Play with it, learn it. Learn *all* new tchnologies, if you have the time. I am pro-C#.

As I've been told by the salesman who posted this, I'm not pro-C# enough, since I see both pro's and con's of C# (in the MS sales world, all criticism of MS is not to be tolerated, MS and their offerings are only good, never bad).

But I like the direction MS is heading with .NET.

14 posted on 05/04/2002 2:22:31 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Bush2000
Don't waste your time with C#, EZTRIEVE is the language of the future.
15 posted on 05/04/2002 2:24:02 PM PDT by duckman
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To: Bush2000
Twelve percent of all North American software developers have begun using C#

Seems high to me, I don't know anyone who has tried it, or who plans to.

16 posted on 05/04/2002 2:56:47 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: CTB999
Here's a discussion about the VB.Net versus C# debate that might interest you and others reading.
17 posted on 05/04/2002 3:09:39 PM PDT by eraser X
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To: Bush2000
Judging by offerings from MS Press, MS is pushing VB.Net and treating C# like BR stepchild. However, VB programmers say VB.Net has so little resemblance to VB they call it Visual Fred. But Bill hath said, "thou shalt adopt .Net". Hope he gets his clock cleaned in court.
18 posted on 05/04/2002 3:14:28 PM PDT by wdkeller
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: expatriot
If you want to know why CA broke the rules to buy ORACLE it is simple, MSFT has yet to deliver to the enterprise.

Ah, you swallowed the red pill. Pity. Get back in your feeding pod.

http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=noncluster
http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=cluster
http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=all
21 posted on 05/05/2002 12:21:08 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: ikka
Crappy runtime + incompatibility with most Unixes + poor scalability + paid astroturf advertorials like this + 90% current MS market share in OSes = ?

MS is taking a page from your ABMer bigots' playbook:


22 posted on 05/05/2002 12:23:55 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: CTB999
"MS added a bunch of very cool features to VB that is backward compatable with VB 6.0..."

That's just plain wrong. VB.Net is in no way, shape, or form backwards compatible with VB 6.

Try using the DEFINT command in Dot Net. Try using the Goto command. Try using the Gosub/Return commands in Dot Net. They aren't there any longer.

Dot Net may have some cool new features in it, but don't kid yourself about it being backwards compatible. It isn't. Less than 40% of VB 6 code will compile in Dot Net. The object property differences in .frms/.frxs alone is staggering...

Now, if all you've ever written are Hello World programs for your college profs, I can understand that you wouldn't comprehend that MS threw out the backwards compatibility baby with the bathwater, but if someone is paying you money for your VB knowledge, then they deserve what they've got...

23 posted on 05/05/2002 12:41:16 AM PDT by Southack
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To: expatriot
I'm sitting down to the ... blah, blah, blah ...

Have you ever considered a new line of work? This one doesn't seem to be working for you...
24 posted on 05/05/2002 3:28:36 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: duckman
Don't waste your time with C#, EZTRIEVE is the language of the future.

Yeah, right. So's Cobol. If you want to narrow your career choices ...
25 posted on 05/05/2002 3:31:50 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: expatriot
I'm seriously working on this crap, and if I'm having difficulty... what about the associated costs to the ignorant

Mensa, you ain't...
26 posted on 05/05/2002 3:33:06 AM PDT by Bush2000
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: Bush2000
For everyone screaming that no one will use C#, let them. I am kicking butt in the market and have three major players buying .NET architecture projects right now. Of course, these guys were sick of hearing how .NET sucks by people who don't know the diff between C# and VB.NET, and, yes, there are significant differences. (Hint: Look up 'overloading'.) A few J2EE guys tried to sell them Java. They thought that was funny. Every developer I have talked to has tried C# and is asking for .NET projects to work on. Even a die-hard assembly/C++ friend of mine is now studying .NET and C#, and loves it. He is also finding it not that much of a hurdle to learn the basics and get deep into .NET.
31 posted on 05/05/2002 7:40:27 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: You are here
Do you remember when the UNIX crowd poo-poo'd VB because it was, at the time, byte interpreted, but when Java came out, which is also byte interpreted, they loved it and byte-code interpretation no longer mattered?

This C# vs. Java things seems the same. The bigots are the same. If Microsoft produces it, it must suck. If a UNIX company produces it, it must be good.

32 posted on 05/05/2002 7:47:17 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Southack
"Try using the DEFINT command in Dot Net. Try using the Goto command. Try using the Gosub/Return commands in Dot Net."

If that's what you are using VB6 for, your code sucks. None of those three items have been a best practice.

I have a 25 KLOC program that converted completely, and runs without changes. The VB.NET upgrade wizard for VB6 worked perfectly. Of course, that won't be the case with all programs, but for many mainstream, conservative programs, it will be.

33 posted on 05/05/2002 7:52:00 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: expatriot
"No wonder tech is in the crapper, it happened because of the influence of Msft."

You still doing those drugs, eh?

34 posted on 05/05/2002 7:53:53 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: PatrioticAmerican
For everyone screaming that no one will use C#, let them.

I agree with you. I really like C#. It is a much much easier syntax than C/C++ for me. It is, like Java and unlike C, a rich language. You have to go searching for the class that will do the job but it is probably there.

I started from scratch using the DotNet SDK and had a website up and running in nothing flat. I am now using the website and VS.Net to learn ASP.Net and C#. This is a great system, easy to learn and easy to use and I haven't found any fatal flaws yet.

Also, my opinion on the VB.Net versus C#.Net issue: I think the "Real Programmers" will move to C#.net rather than VB.Net becuase it is a more natural evolution from either their C/C++ or Java roots. The Visual VB people will probably stick with VB.net even though this is a big change for them. Performance-wise there is probably not going to be a huge difference so the choice is really just one of personal preference.

Try it, you will like it.

Disclaimers: I don't work for Microsoft. I like Java. I even like Visual FoxPro. I like Oracle. I don't like the Governor of California.

36 posted on 05/05/2002 8:02:37 AM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: Bush2000
Thanks for posting the info on Microsoft SQL Server kicking the Hell out of the competition on enterprise performance and cost. I use such numbers, and numbers from my own projects, to sell against Oracle. Of course, when I show the cost is less than half of Oracle, my customers buy Microsoft in an instant.

I get tired of so-called "conservatives" bashing Microsoft out of envy and fear and ignorance. I thought those two qualities were the marx of liberals. I don't necessarily support MS in these discussion because I like them. I do it because I am tired of liberals trying to tear down the fabric of this nation, which includes our corporations, which liberals call "evil".

Ever notice that the liberals want the government to put MS out of business? Just like a pretty liberal. These ladies want big daddy to do their bidding. That is why I am here. I am sick of the liberal infestations.

37 posted on 05/05/2002 8:03:59 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: InterceptPoint
You like FoxPro?? OUT! OUT! DEMONS OF STUPIDITY!!! (Just kidding!)
38 posted on 05/05/2002 8:05:29 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: InterceptPoint
Your experiences are common and a good thing. You took a project and were up and running quickly, while you saw advanced capabilities that you can make use of later. .NET provides far more than 99% of the developers know about.

I hate to say it, but ASP created a class of programmer that knows little about structured or object programming. That learning curve will most likely be the biggest hurdle, as it was in 1991 with going from C to C++.

39 posted on 05/05/2002 8:10:03 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Pinlighter
"I Hate Microsoft bump :-(("

At least there is no FUD about that statement. I can't argue with opinion! LOL!

40 posted on 05/05/2002 8:12:54 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: CTB999
"Software is easy, installation is hard. "

And that is where you will find .NET makes it money. The administration/installation of a .NET app is soooooo simple. No more DLL crap, or missing supporting files or libraries.

41 posted on 05/05/2002 8:15:37 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: You are here
Unix is the wave of the past.

Is that the best you can do?

42 posted on 05/05/2002 9:02:47 AM PDT by ikka
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Okay, obviously you're a MS .NET salesman.

Let's have an ethical salesman test:

What do you tell clients about:

Surely if you're an ethical salesman, you inform your prospective clients of the truth, yes? So I'm honestly curious -- how would you respond to an informed client raising these issues?

These are serious, honest concerns that a business must be on top of. You can destroy a business by using a buggy release of a new, untested technology. I'd like to know how you answer such concerns?

The main reason I ask is that I've got past experience with other MS salesmen who promised that NT 4.0, IIS, Win2k, WinXP and now .NET are ready for prime time. Then when the problems popped up and projects had to be killed or migrated to Java, and it became apparent the salesman lied and didn't tell us about known problems, the salesman just vanished and left our company twisting in the wind. I could tell you a loooong story about this last fella who sold part of our accounting dept on trying IIS/Win2k/SQLServer 7. That one small platform gave us more trouble than all our big iron together . . .

So alieve my fears that you are just such a salesman. MS salesman are famous for lofty, untrue promises around here. How would you answer these questions?

43 posted on 05/05/2002 10:06:32 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr

As a systems engineer with 23 years of experience, I'm happy to answer your questions.

·        Already known problems with .NET?

What problems? Name them.

·         Using a 1.0 release of *anything* for mission critical work (which is considered professional incompetence in the IT industry)?

.NET has been in production systems for two years now, although it was released to the masses this past January.  People complain when Microsoft doesn’t field test their products well or long enough, so for .NET they did.  .Net 1.0 is a true 1.0 production version, not a BETA.

·         Using a brand-new technology from MS (which clearly in the past has been a bad thing)?

That would be your personal opinion drawn from your hatred of Microsoft, not a technical evaluation of the .NET product.  Visual Basic 1.0 was a great entry product.  Visual C++, the same. Windows XP, another 1.0 product win.  Windows NT 3.5, another first release win.  Yes, many products, not just from Microsoft, suck when first released.  Even Visual Studio 7 needs a service pack to fix many problems, but it still works very well, and well enough for production software. The .NET framework just had an SP.

·         The problems of using IIS as your web server (which, again, is considered professional incompetence in the IT industry)?

IIS runs millions of web servers, so, again, that statement would be your personal hatred of Microsoft, and not a technical evaluation of IIS.  The serious overhead of UNIX systems warrants a look at IIS.  TCO is a primary reason I win sales using Microsoft products.  I also enjoy the UNIX crowd giving their high-priced song-n-dance about how Microsoft cannot perform.  I show the performance and the companies using IIS, and I win hands down.  I love it.

·         The fact that the vast majority of real servers are Unix or Linux, which won't run .NET for years?

Again, that statement is your personal opinion of Microsoft products, not a realistic evaluation.  IIS and Windows 2000 server drive a large portion of the web and client/server applications.  You must be ignoring the case studies proving Microsoft products and technologies work. 

 

If Microsoft products and technologies do not work so well, how is it that Microsoft, a $55 billion company, with 40,000+ global employees, works so well using them?

I believe MS has a few problems that need addressing, but nothing that warrants dismissing their products or technologies.

44 posted on 05/05/2002 10:51:30 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Dominic Harr
P.S. I do not work for Microsoft, and never have. I do have 23 years with their products and technologies, and I have a close relationship with Microsoft.

For the record, I now work for Ciber as a Microsoft practice manager. We know you work for CSC, and Bush2000 and InnocentBystander work or have worked for Microsoft, just to set the table of who's who.

45 posted on 05/05/2002 10:56:08 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: PatrioticAmerican
Windows XP, another 1.0 product win. Windows NT 3.5, another first release win.

XP was so wonderful that you have to download over 17MB of product fixes. NT started at v3.1, not 3.5. And the service packs to take it to a STABLE release also known as 3.51 are not small.

47 posted on 05/05/2002 11:48:07 AM PDT by ikka
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: PatrioticAmerican
I do have 23 years with their products and technologies, and I have a close relationship with Microsoft.

Yes, you have your head up their @$$.

49 posted on 05/05/2002 11:48:57 AM PDT by ikka
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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