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To: f.Christian
there is so much to comment on here. a few thoughts:

"Societies of insects, animals, or men, survive and are held together by the solidarity produced through the mutual identification of members. Among insects or animal groups, mutual identification is secured by scent or other natural characteristics. It is thus that members of a species, or subspecies, or group— a swarm of bees, a termite society, or a herd of elephants— can have a shared organization, a society, and can act together to survive and to ward off outsiders. They have a social bond."

Hayek would have shared this belief 100%. Hayek said he was not a conservative, but a "liberal" (I think we would say he was a libertarian).

The basic philosophical principle of libertarians today is that they renounce the unilateral use of force to get one's way. That is a pretty solid principle. That is why nearly as many libertarians today are pro-life as Republicans.

Libertarians today are not the enemies of the Founders of America. They recognize - correctly - that the US Constitution is the most libertarian structure ever created, precisely because it enumerates federal power and limits it. Or used to, at least.

The author is correct nonetheless in identifying the anarchist subculture among libertarians, drug users, antinomians, etc. But I think that is less pronounced today than in '79. Certainly privately contracting out of liability for murder is unthinkable.

I would suggest that if one sticks to the US Constitution, Austrian economists and the Bible one can have a fairly coherent worldview and political philosophy, and one that will guarantee a tremendous sphere of freedom for individuals and families, liberty in law, an enduring liberty b/c it is coupled with morality.

With regards to political parties, if the R's would ever get serious abot rolling back government even a little, then there would be no need for a LP, and the remainders of the LP members would be the anarchists caricatured by the author.

15 posted on 10/16/2002 7:13:33 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: ConservativeDude
The reason that Hayek called himself a liberal and not a conservative is because liberalism in Europe has a very different meaning (or, at least, it used to) than it has in America, much as European conservatism has little to do with American conservatism. Erik Von Kuehnelt-Leddhin made this distinction as well, calling himself a liberal.

In reality, American conservatism is very much a liberal movement. And American liberalism has nothing to do with it, having been perverted to mean essentially "spending liberally".

16 posted on 10/16/2002 7:28:28 AM PDT by William McKinley
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To: ConservativeDude; William McKinley
Hayek on the subject:
In the United States, where it has become almost impossible to use "liberal" in the sense in which I have used it, the term "libertarian" has been used instead. It may be the answer; but for my part I find it singularly unattractive. For my taste it carries too much the flavor of a manufactured term and of a substitute. What I should want is a word which describes the party of life, the party that favors free growth and spontaneous evolution. But I have racked my brain unsuccessfully to find a descriptive term which commends itself.

7. We should remember, however, that when the ideals which I have been trying to restate first began to spread through the Western world, the party which represented them had a generally recognized name. It was the ideals of the English Whigs that inspired what later came to be known as the liberal movement in the whole of Europe[15] and that provided the conceptions that the American colonists carried with them and which guided them in their struggle for independence and in the establishment of their constitution.[16] Indeed, until the character of this tradition was altered by the accretions due to the French Revolution, with its totalitarian democracy and socialist leanings, "Whig" was the name by which the party of liberty was generally known.

The name died in the country of its birth partly because for a time the principles for which it stood were no longer distinctive of a particular party, and partly because the men who bore the name did not remain true to those principles. The Whig parties of the nineteenth century, in both Britain and the United States, finally brought discredit to the name among the radicals. But it is still true that, since liberalism took the place of Whiggism only after the movement for liberty had absorbed the crude and militant rationalism of the French Revolution, and since our task must largely be to free that tradition from the overrationalistic, nationalistic, and socialistic influences which have intruded into it, Whiggism is historically the correct name for the ideas in which I believe. The more I learn about the evolution of ideas, the more I have become aware that I am simply an unrepentant Old Whig - with the stress on the "old."

To confess one's self as an Old Whig does not mean, of course, that one wants to go back to where we were at the end of the seventeenth century. It has been one of the purposes of this book to show that the doctrines then first stated continued to grow and develop until about seventy or eighty years ago, even though they were no longer the chief aim of a distinct party. We have since learned much that should enable us to restate them in a more satisfactory and effective form. But, though they require restatement in the light of our present knowledge, the basic principles are still those of the Old Whigs. True, the later history of the party that bore that name has made some historians doubt where there was a distinct body of Whig principles; but I can but agree with Lord Acton that, though some of "the patriarchs of the doctrine were the most infamous of men, the notion of a higher law above municipal codes, with which Whiggism began, is the supreme achievement of Englishmen and their bequest to the nation"[17] - and, we may add, to the world. It is the doctrine which is at the basis of the common tradition of the Anglo-Saxon countries. It is the doctrine from which Continental liberalism took what is valuable in it. It is the doctrine on which the American system of government is based. In its pure form it is represented in the United States, not by the radicalism of Jefferson, nor by the conservatism of Hamilton or even of John Adams, but by the ideas of James Madison, the "father of the Constitution."[18]

I do not know whether to revive that old name is practical politics. That to the mass of people, both in the Anglo-Saxon world and elsewhere, it is today probably a term without definite associations is perhaps more an advantage than a drawback. To those familiar with the history of ideas it is probably the only name that quite expresses what the tradition means. That, both for the genuine conservative and still more for the many socialists turned conservative, Whiggism is the name for their pet aversion shows a sound instinct on their part. It has been the name for the only set of ideals that has consistently opposed all arbitrary power.

8. It may well be asked whether the name really matters so much. In a country like the United States, which on the whole has free institutions and where, therefore, the defense of the existing is often a defense of freedom, it might not make so much difference if the defenders of freedom call themselves conservatives, although even here the association with the conservatives by disposition will often be embarrassing. Even when men approve of the same arrangements, it must be asked whether they approve of them because they exist or because they are desirable in themselves. The common resistance to the collectivist tide should not be allowed to obscure the fact that the belief in integral freedom is based on an essentially forward-looking attitude and not on any nostalgic longing for the past or a romantic admiration for what has been.

The need for a clear distinction is absolutely imperative, however, where, as is true in many parts of Europe, the conservatives have already accepted a large part of the collectivist creed - a creed that has governed policy for so long that many of its institutions have come to be accepted as a matter of course and have become a source of pride to "conservative" parties who created them.[19] Here the believer in freedom cannot but conflict with the conservative and take an essentially radical position, directed against popular prejudices, entrenched positions, and firmly established privileges. Follies and abuses are no better for having long been established principles of folly.

This, of course, is from his essay, "Why I am Not a Conservative" an appendix to The Constitution of Liberty. While I have highlighted his comments on Libertarian and Old Whig, earlier in his essay he stresses all the parts of Conservatism, both Continental and American, that he has problems with. In an effort to not post too lengthy a read, I have included only the parts bearing on both of your comments.
22 posted on 10/16/2002 8:03:01 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: ConservativeDude
To: f.Christian

Now I follow, thank you. Actually, I don't disagree with this at all since I see the left as abandoning the uncertianty of democracy and majority rule for the assurance technocracy and expert rule.

152 posted on 9/10/02 12:17 PM Pacific by Liberal Classic

27 posted on 10/16/2002 9:05:50 AM PDT by f.Christian
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To: ConservativeDude
>> They recognize - correctly - that the US Constitution is the most libertarian structure ever created, precisely because it enumerates federal power and limits it. Or used to, at least.



Absolutely
227 posted on 10/19/2002 3:22:42 AM PDT by The Raven
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