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Will Liberals Win The Propaganda Wars?
Toogood Reports ^ | June 18, 2002 | Allan C. Stover

Posted on 06/18/2002 12:54:49 PM PDT by Stand Watch Listen

Election season is near, and as crisp autumn winds sweep across our blessed land, one thing is certain: the hot air on political talk shows will heat up even more. Even though aging 1960´s liberal brats and their successors control the major media — television remains the best forum for conservatives to present their case and win the hearts and minds of the American electorate. Sadly, it´s always an uphill battle when the other side controls the sources of propaganda.

Americans who have watched talk shows the last few elections have probably come away with at least one observation: conservatives and liberals argue differently. One has only to watch a James Carville and Bill Bennett debate to see the difference.

Unfortunately, the average viewer probably also concludes that liberals score more points, at least emotional ones. Although Bill Bennett emerges with considerably more dignity than James “The Mouth” Carville, Mr. Carville seems able to cloud the real issues and stir up a lot of emotions that bolster his cause with viewers. Liberals have perfected techniques that work in today´s environment and give them the perception of winning hearts and minds — and perception nowadays counts for everything.

Liberals usually win the emotional side of debates, which for most TV viewers is the only side that counts, while conservatives win the less exciting logical side. As long as liberals can keep the argument on an emotional level and avoid discussing the facts, they can win public sympathy. Liberals present themselves as “caring” altruists who have dedicated their lives to protecting the poor and downtrodden. They label anyone who disagrees with their social programs as “uncaring.” And how can anyone labeled as uncaring have any credibility with a television audience?

We see the “caring spin” applied to everything liberals advocate, with an emphasis on saving or protecting a group or cause that can tug at our emotions. Liberal members of Congress adopt titles for their bills that imply they truly care, even though the bills may contain bureaucratic fluff, much of it unrelated to saving or protecting anything except bureaucratic jobs, political pork, and government control over our lives.

When conservatives question whether our tax money is being spent to do the most good, they are labeled as uncaring. “You don‘t care enough about the children of America,” liberals say over and over, and viewers watching the talk show soon wonder whether there might be something to that charge, for a lie repeated often enough soon sounds like the truth. After all, didn´t the conservative guest just criticize the “Save our Children from Going Hungry” bill just because it was too costly? Maybe they really are Scrooges who hate children.

Labeling is one way liberals get an edge in a debate, but it is hardly a new technique. In the 1964 election, Democrats successfully used labels and buzzwords to smear Barry Goldwater. One of his campaign slogans was, “In your heart you know he´s right.” The other side tacked on, “Yes, extreme right,” and Barry was labeled for the remainder of the election as extreme right-wing, even though he was simply a highly respected conservative U. S. Senator. Nowadays they label pro-life activists as “right-wing Christian fundamentalists,” the National Rifle Association as “extremist,” and gun owners as “rednecks.” They´ve even tried to re-label themselves as “progressives,” the label “liberal” now being discredited in most Americans´ eyes.

Barry Goldwater also warned Americans that Social Security would someday be in trouble. The other side had access to the same demographics he had back then and knew he spoke the truth, but they also knew that if Americans lost faith in the Social Security system created by FDR, they might question the rest of the liberal philosophy. Liberals fought back by changing the subject and re-labeling the respected senator. “How could Social Security ever be in trouble?” they wailed. “It´s supported by the U. S. Government. Maybe Goldwater plans to destroy Social Security.” They changed the subject from whether Social Security would be in trouble, to whether it would be in trouble if Goldwater were elected — and in the process labeled him an enemy of Social Security and the elderly. Goldwater had to divert much of his campaign budget to television ads to assure voters that he supported Social Security.

The techniques haven´t changed since then. Liberals have already labeled George W. Bush an enemy of Social Security, even though he´s advanced the only viable plan to save it.

Labeling is especially effective when it is applied early on, because people are influenced by such first impressions. Liberals labeled George W. Bush a “lightweight” and John Ashcroft as “too religious” before they even took office, and the labels have haunted them ever since.

Liberal journalists perpetuated the labels “amiable dunce” and “intellectual lightweight” affixed to Ronald Reagan. As Hoover Institution fellow Arnold Beichman noted in the Washington Times, “[T]he media made him out to be a half-wit surrounded by a bunch of geniuses.” With the publication of hundreds of Reagan´s papers, the truth has finally emerged (with no help from those liberal journalists) that he was anything but an intellectual lightweight. Now they´re trying to regain some credibility by acting surprised by the revelation. “Who would have thought he was that intelligent?“ they ask on talk shows. If they didn´t know it all along, they‘re the intellectual lightweights.

With labeling as a foundation, liberals go on to select from a number of other proven techniques. Hopefully, the voters in the coming election can cut through the propaganda and select the best leaders for our trying times. Let´s get out there and help them do it.



TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: billbennett; bureaucraticjobs; carville; children; goldwater; governmentcontrol; labeling; liberal; nra; politicalpork; reagan; socialsecurity

1 posted on 06/18/2002 12:54:49 PM PDT by Stand Watch Listen
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To: Stand Watch Listen
Liberals work off emotions conservatives work off logic. When will people learn to follow their head and not their heart.
2 posted on 06/18/2002 1:00:14 PM PDT by weikel
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To: weikel
Not true. Conservatives are very much reliant on emotions. Everyone is to a degree. It's just that the left has to abuse emotions in order to keep people from realizing that they are the knee jerk reactionaries that they claim to oppose.
3 posted on 06/18/2002 1:02:52 PM PDT by dheretic
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To: weikel
Liberals work off emotions conservatives work off logic.

What is this? Dr. McCoy versus Mr. Spock?
4 posted on 06/18/2002 1:03:18 PM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: Stand Watch Listen
Will Liberals Win The Propaganda Wars?

Unless the ENTIRE criminal history of the Clinton-Clinton-Reno-Gore crime family is completely exposed before the American public -- yes.

As long as the fiction that "the Nixon Administration was a criminal enterprise, with serious crimes, but Clinton was just a good-natured womanizer who lied ONLY about sex" fiction is allowed to remain the mantra of the dominant media, we WILL lose the culture war.

In this area, I wish to God somebody would donate Bush a CLUE!!!!!!!!!!

5 posted on 06/18/2002 1:03:26 PM PDT by berned
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To: weikel
It appears that both liberals/conservatives are pandering for votes. The 'entitlements' voters historically are bound to the Democrats. Wherein the conservatives seem to be 'enlarging' their tent and disregarding their base.
6 posted on 06/18/2002 1:13:15 PM PDT by Stand Watch Listen
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To: Stand Watch Listen
Liberals won the Propaganda Wars a long time ago...
7 posted on 06/18/2002 1:14:52 PM PDT by Lamont Cranston
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To: Lamont Cranston
Just what I wuz gonna say. What a dumb question.
8 posted on 06/18/2002 1:18:06 PM PDT by Warren
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To: berned
You're right.
9 posted on 06/18/2002 1:19:07 PM PDT by wheezer
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To: Stand Watch Listen
With labeling as a foundation, liberals go on to select from a number of other proven techniques. Hopefully, the voters in the coming election can cut through the propaganda and select the best leaders for our trying times. Let´s get out there and help them do it.

Make personal attacks part of a political platform. Put the adults in charge. Labeling is for those who have nothing else to work with.
The right wing, the adults of society. The mature.
Make the progressives into "regressive" - back into their childhood type image.
Once liberals are portrayed as children, the country will notice it right away and agree.

10 posted on 06/18/2002 1:24:42 PM PDT by concerned about politics
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To: Lamont Cranston
Our education system has been converted from teaching people to think (for themselves) to inculcating proper attitudes (i.e. preconditioning emotional responses). Once the preconditioning of people to become passive consumers of propaganda, that is to say passive reactors to people pushing their emotional buttons, there is little that reason or logic can do.
11 posted on 06/18/2002 1:30:09 PM PDT by thucydides
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To: Stand Watch Listen
Liberals usually win the emotional side of debates, which for most TV viewers is the only side that counts, while conservatives win the less exciting logical side.

Who really believes that it makes a difference? Now that the nation has reached the point where 50% of the people pay 96% of the taxes it is time to recognize the meaning of the words of Teddy Roosevelt on the Fall of the Republic. Study his words carefully and see if his observation brings any of your own observations to mind.

"The Roman Republic fell, not because of the ambition of Caesar or Augustus, but because it had already long ceased to be in any real sense a republic at all. When the sturdy Roman plebeian, who lived by his own labor, who voted without reward according to his own convictions, and who with his fellows formed in war the terrible Roman legion, had been changed into an idle creature who craved nothing in life save the gratification of a thirst for vapid excitement, who was fed by the state, and who directly or indirectly sold his vote to the highest bidder, then the end of the Republic was at hand, and nothing could save it. The laws were the same as they had been, but the people behind the laws had changed, and so the laws counted for nothing."

12 posted on 06/18/2002 1:44:41 PM PDT by MosesKnows
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To: Stand Watch Listen
Will Liberals Win The Propaganda Wars?

And just who will the liberals convince in this propaganda war causing them to vote for liberals? Could it be liberals? Not likly liberals are already liberal. They vote liberal. That is why they are called liberals. What abut the conservatives? Will the right rush to vote for Hillary or Gore the next time? That is not too probable is it? How many of you are just waiting for Hillary to say the magic words that will open your eyes to see her propagandized truth?

Then who is the target in the propaganda war. The object of all political wars is the people that somtimes vote for the left and at other times vote for the right. The object of all propaganda wars is the middle. That is who the left always goes after. He who wins the middle wins. That is not rocket science but it escapes most conservatives.

The center never goes for the stuff that motivates the left. If the center bought the same pitch that persuades the left, they would be leftists... wouldn't they? The center never goes for the logic that motivates the right. If they were persuaded by the arguments that persuades the right, they would be conservatives... wouldn't they? The center has its own middle of the road agenda that appeals to it. The party that bends enough to garner center support wins. That always has been the case. It will always be the case.

Neither the left or right has enough support to win. They have about 1/3 each. To win a political party must get over half the center.

What Democrat candidates always try to do is appeal to the center. If they get the center they win. Why did Bill Clinton run as a NEW DEMOCRAT. Is it becuase true blue Democrats don't like Old Demorats? Hardly. Democrats love old leftist Democrats. It is the center that does not like OLD Democrats. So Bill and Hillary offered the center a NEW IMPROVED MORE MODERATE Democrat.

Why is Bush running to the center? It is because the center does not like the right. They certainly don't like the old right. They never have. They never will. They don't like the old left either. They never have they never will.

I can hear someone screaming, Clinton wasn't a NEW DEMOCRAT, he was an old Democrat. UH HUH. Try telling that to the center. And listen closely to yourself. YOu may have just discovered teh secret to ruling America.

Our a two party system is so established in law it cannot be changed. The two parties agreed on that little item. Tthere are only two ways to change the nation. The left can do things to appeal to the center, then further the agenda of the left when it gets control of the house senate and presidency. The Right can do things to appeal to the center, then further its agenda when it gets control of the house senate and presidency.

One advantate for the left is leftists totally support a Democrat when he does the New Democrat bit to apeal to the center.

The right tries to destroy a New Repubican if he tries a similar tactic to gain control. They right just loves losing to Democrats. Either that or they are clueless. Some are so principled that they demand defeat rather than do what it takes to win. They are among the best supporters the left has.

The success so often enjoyed by the left and the frequent failure of the right is not based on media or smarter politicians on the left. It is the rights constant demand that no right wing policitan ever be permitted to go after the center.

The right always thinks that if the center just heard them out, the center would become conservative. Here is the clue. They have heard what the right pitches, and they have consistantly rejected it for 70 years.

The only good news is the center has rejected what the left pictches for nearly 140 years.

The left learned in 1930 what it takes to control America. The right hasn't figured it out yet. Perhaps they never will. Tom Daschle certainly hopes the right never does. He is betting the future of the Democratic party on his belief that you will not.


13 posted on 06/18/2002 1:55:38 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Common Tator
This is your standard approach which is correct to a point, but when you say

One advantate for the left is leftists totally support a Democrat when he does the New Democrat bit to apeal to the center.

You ignore, for example, Nader and the Greens, without whom Bush looses in 2000.

Both parties need to keep their base. Bush is loosing his in some degree. I expect a significant number will sit out 04 if things continue as they have...with the exception everybody on the right would come out to vote against Hillary!

14 posted on 06/18/2002 2:04:27 PM PDT by RJCogburn
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To: thucydides
Once the preconditioning of people to become passive consumers of propaganda, that is to say passive reactors to people pushing their emotional buttons, there is little that reason or logic can do.

Yes, and that's been happening for so many years now, that there is little hope to save the country through rational means

15 posted on 06/18/2002 2:18:53 PM PDT by Lamont Cranston
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To: Common Tator
Your standard "fight for the center" pitch would almost make sense if the sectors you mete out remained constant--which they do not, never did, and never will. As Bush goes to the left, the center shifts.

Sounds good. Doesn't work.

16 posted on 06/18/2002 2:27:20 PM PDT by edger
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To: Stand Watch Listen
Somehow suggesting that liberals win the propaganda wars because of their hysterical and irrational behavior combined with half-truths and out right lies really begs the question, doesn't it? And I'm totally unconvinced that television is anything but a liberal bastion. The only place I hear clear and concise conservative discussion is on Talk Radio. Not television. Ironically, Carvel and the rest of those criminals come across on the radio exactly for what they are: liars, deceitful, dishonest, and corrupt. In other words socialist. voyager2
17 posted on 06/18/2002 2:32:39 PM PDT by Voyager2
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To: edger
Your standard "fight for the center" pitch would almost make sense if the sectors you mete out remained constant--which they do not, never did, and never will be

You are totally wrong. The democrats have been from 33 to 36 percent of the voting public ever since 1948. The Repubicans have been from 32 to 35 percent of the public every year since 1948.

Independents have been from 30 to 38 percent every year since 1948.

There are several sources for the data. First the primaries where people have to declare party. Primaries draw about 2/3 as many voters as general elections. Less than 3 tenths of one percent of the voters ever change party registration. They split nation wide with a 2 to 3 percent edge for democrats. Only a tiny segment of registered voters every change parties.

Every exit poll conducted since 1980 has shown roughly 35 percent of the voters say they are Democrats, 33 percent say they are republicans, and 32 percent say they are independants. If the percenages stay the same from year to year and people do not change party registration, what part of that making you a liar don't you understand?

Both parties target advertising to reach that 10 or 12 percent in the middle that can most easily be persuaded. That is why NO national candidate ever runs a newspaper advertisement. The center voters they are after don't read newspapers. They watch enterainment on TV. Neither Gore nor Bush spend a penny on newspaper ads. Call up any national candidate's advertising director and ask him or her why they only target the middle with their million dollar ad campaigns? Ask why Karl Rowe cut the yard sign budget in the 2000 campaign when money for entertainment tv got short.

To believe you, you have to believe that you are right and every major party candidate for president in the last 50 years who wrote about his campaign is wrong. For they all agreed with me. Ike, Nixon, LBJ, Jimmy Carter, Reagan all in their memoirs agreed with what I say. In fact my primary sources for my opinion are those 5 presidents. When they talk about their campaigns in their books they say the same thing I am saying. All of them made the point I make in the books they wrote after leaving office.

Teddy White in his series of Books "The making of the President" made the same point in every book. He was quoting the campaign managers for the winners in races from 1948 to 1984.

Newt Gingrich in his C-PAC training sessions for Republicanm candidates always made the same point I do. CPAC training videos still make the same point.

The DNC candidate training videos make the same point.

Assoicated press in its training of news reports makes the same points in its classes on how to cover election returns.

There are decades of proof to back it up what I say. I have only quoted a few. There are many more.

I have noticed one thing about people who just make stuff up and claim it is true. They think everone else does the same thing.


18 posted on 06/18/2002 5:06:50 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: RJCogburn
The leftist and the Greens are not a factor any more then Pat Buchanan and the Libertarians are a factor.

I am reminded of all the Idiots that thought that Anderson was going to be a factor in the Reagan Carter race of 1980.

There is always a cost of going to the center. Candidates lose a tiny segment of the right and left. The center makes up 33 percent of the voters. The far left and far right make up about 3 percent each. Thus Bush only needs an additional 9 percent of the middle to make up for a 100 percent loss of the far right. But he never had 90 percent of the far right. He only had 10 percent. And he only needs one percent of the center to make up for the 10 percent of the right he might lose. It is so much easier to get a percent of the center than it is to get 10 of the far right. Democrats feel the same way about the far left ... for that matter.

The far left never votes for the Democrats. They vote Green, Nader et all or they don't vote. Mostly they attend their party cell meetings and plot the overthrow of the nation. The far right votes for Libertarians or Buchanan types. They don't vote for Repubicans. They just spend time pretending like they did.

The far left and far right are not part of any major parties calculus. NO effort by either party is ever made to get the 3 percent fringe. They cost way too much.

To the far left Gore is considered to be as bad as Bush. The far left is not going to vote for Gore. If they thought Gore was better than Bush they would vote for Gore. They vote for Nader becuase to them Bush and Gore are political twins.

To the far right Bush is every bit as bad as Gore. If ony Bush and Gore were running they would not vote. All you have to do is read Free Republic to know what I say is true. How many times do you have to say Bush is no better than Gore to understand that you do infact believe it.

The people who scream that if Bush doesn't change his ways he will lose their vote, never voted for Bush. They are not going to vote for Bush. It is no big deal to bush or me. Or any member of the Republican party.

The RNC knows it. Bush knows it. Gore knows it. The DNC knows it. I think we know who that leaves in the dark.

19 posted on 06/18/2002 5:29:20 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Stand Watch Listen
The great thing about a 'propoganda war' is that it only ends when one side slacks off and gives up. If neither side does that, it can go on forever. And I dunno about you, but I don't see conservatives either slacking off or giving up, President Bush's capitulation to the center notwithstanding.
20 posted on 06/18/2002 5:33:43 PM PDT by AM2000
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To: Common Tator
The far left never votes for the Democrats. They vote Green, Nader et all or they don't vote.

You are clarifying your post #13 by adding the category 'far left'. Fair enough. But since Nader did get a few % of the vote and that is more than, say the 'far left' candidiate got in '96 ot '92, and the total turnout did not rise by the corresponding %age (at least I believe that is correct) you are saying that total turnout would have been even lower by a similar %age, more or less, had Nader/Greens not been on the ballot. About that I'm skeptical.

For the record, I did vote for Bush. I'd like to be able to do it again.

21 posted on 06/18/2002 6:32:17 PM PDT by RJCogburn
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To: Stand Watch Listen
The terms "left" and "right" ignore the reality that there are three distinct groups of people:
  1. Those who want someone else to care for them.
  2. Those who want to care for themselves.
  3. Those who want to care for (and control) others.
Although the first and third groups are both to the "left" politically, they are in fact polar opposites. An amazingly-well-kept secret in this country is that it is the Democrats, not the Republicans, who are the party of the super-rich and large corporations. Republicans want people to improve themselves; elite Democrats want all the "little people" to stay in their place.
22 posted on 06/18/2002 6:47:45 PM PDT by supercat
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To: RJCogburn
%age (at least I believe that is correct) you are

Total turn out was up substantially in Democratic districts in 2000. That is why the polls were off. If the turn out had been at 92 or 96 levels Bush would have had a nice victory. The pollsters (except Zogby) were using the turn out numbers from 92 and 96. It was a lot greater than that. The democrats got 3 million more votes than they had ever in history achieved. That is a lot.

In fact the lastest mantra from the Gore camp posted several times here on FR is that Gore got more votes in 2000 than any President ever elected except, Ronald Reagan in 1984. It is true. Gore got more votes than any president ever elected except Ronald Reagan in 1984.

Gore does not mention the converse is also true. Bush got more votes than anyone ever elected president except Ronald Reagan in 1984. Gore does not mention that, but it is the truth.

Nader got more votes than any green candiate has perviouslly. But Nader did not do as well in 2000 as Anderson did in the 1980 reace. Anderson got almost 6.6 percent of the vote. Nader got 2.7. The media was pretty sure that Anderson would hurt Reagan and re-elect Carter. Anderson got 6.6 percent, but it did not hurt Reagan at all. Anderson did not defeat Reagan any more than Nader defeated Gore or Strom Thurmond defeated Harry Truman.

It was a large turnout in 2000. Much of it do to the get out the vote efforts by the unions a good job by Bush. But bush still got 4 million less votes than Reagan in 1984. The unions were under a new generation of management in 2000. They intended to do what it took to elect Gore and take back the congress. They almost won, but almost only counts in horse shoes, handgrenades, and atomic bombs.

The turnout in 1980 was 86.5 million Reagan got just over 50 percent. Anderson got a bit over 6.6 percent with 5 million plus votes. He did not keep Reagan from gaining the 50 percent mark.

The turn out in 1984 was 92.7 million. Reagan got 57 million of the 93.7 1984 was essentaily a 2 party race.

The turnout in 1988 was 91.5 million.This was essentially a two party race.

1992 was a 3 way race and the turn out was 104.4 mllion. Perot got 19 million and Clinton got 44 million. Bush got 39 million. Perot in 1992 was the exception that proved the rule. In 1992 people were fearful of the economy. The media made them so. Perot ranted aobut it but offered no concrete plans. Clinton did. They were bad plans but he did offer a plan. Bush did nothing, beause nothing needed don. But wining elections has nothing to do with what needs done. It has to do with perceptions. Reality has very little to do with it.

1996 was far less of a three way race but Perot got 8.6 percent of the vote and the turn out was 96.2. Perot did not defeat Bob Dole. Bob Dole defeated Bob Dole. Just like George Bush defeated George Bush.

But in 2000 the turnout was 105.4 which was 9 million more than 1996 and a bit over a million more than the Bush, Perot, Clinton Race. Gore got 3 million more votes than any democrat in history. Yet the top 3rd party candidate got only 2.7 percent far less than Andersons 6.6 or Perots 19.9, and 8.6.

The largest democat vote getter in history is Al Gore. He got just over 50 million votes. Clintons top was the previous record holder at 46.9, Carter did 40.8 in his win. George mcGovern got only 29 million. 29 million was about the base number of Democrats. McGovern did not get any middle votes. Richard Nixon got them all. It is likely the democrat base is about 35 million today. The Repubican base is about 35 million. The base has grown from what Bush got in 1992. In 92 all bush got was the base. The rest of he votes are the center that floates back and forth.

Anderson, Nader, Thrumond are fringe candidates that got votes from the left or the right. They are the 3 percent or less. Perot's votes mostly came out of the middle. He got the fringe but it was mostly the middle in 1992 that went with him. About 13 of his 19 million came out of the center. Bush a very little of the middle in 1992. Perot got nearly half of it. Clinton got the rest and that was enough to give him the 44 milion votes it took to win.

Reagan is the all time champ. He got 54 million votes in 1984. None else has gotten 54 million votes. Reagan got his base and nearly all the center. Mondale got mostly just his base. Gore got 3 million more votes than any Democrat has ever gotten. Yet he lost.

In 2000, there were 2 inner city precincts in Cleveland Ohio in which 100 percent of the registered democratic voters, voted.

The Democrats got out their vote in record numbers in 2000. They will not get them out in 2002 or 2004. Nader in 2004 will make Pat Buchanan look like a big vote getter. Bush should win big but the turnout will be down three or four million from 2000. It will come out of the Democrats hide. The midterms will find more center with Bush and less Demorat base coming to the polls. Splinter parties do next to nothing in non presidential years. They don't have candidates and they don't vote.

23 posted on 06/18/2002 8:03:42 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: supercat
An amazingly-well-kept secret in this country is that it is the Democrats, not the Republicans,

That is the truth. I once did a posting listing the corporate heads and rich people that were democrats.

That is why the Democrats have to have soft money. Their big doners are all super rich. And their are only a few of them. The republicans have lots of small givers.

When they limit the amout of money each doner can give, it hurts Democrats a lot more than it does Republicans.

If the Repubican have most of the money, how come they let the left own the media..


24 posted on 06/18/2002 8:07:59 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Common Tator
In 2000, there were 2 inner city precincts in Cleveland Ohio in which 100 percent of the registered democratic voters, voted.

Only 100%? I thought there were some in Pittsburgh where over 100% of the voting-age population voted. No fraud there, of course, though.

25 posted on 06/18/2002 8:22:01 PM PDT by supercat
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Common Tator
Thanks. That is a very complete response which I appreciate.
27 posted on 06/19/2002 3:31:21 AM PDT by RJCogburn
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To: Common Tator
Two further questions.

Your general approach, that each party must try to head for the center and get a larger share of those voters in the middle makes sense and is pretty standard political theory. What about the idea of "solidifying the base", or "energize the base" or the "broken glass republicans"? I understand you to be saying this is less important, perhaps even a myth. It seems to me that if a candidate moves too far from his base they won't turn out, but you disagree, I guess. Is 'turning out the vote' as the dems did, just a matter of, in simplistic terms, of rounding people up and bringing them to the polls? Is the dynamic the same for turning out dem/liberals as for repub/conservatives?

So far as moving to the center.....the location of the center changes over time, would you not agree? How does the location of the center come about? Is it due to media, popular culture, events at the time? Can not a true leader help to move the center, to lead people in a direction that moves the center, or is it beyond the ability of a leader (by which I mean an extraordinary person, not just a leading candidate...Mrs. Thatcher, perhaps) to do so?

Thanks.

28 posted on 06/19/2002 2:07:41 PM PDT by RJCogburn
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To: Common Tator
I am sure those politicians all said what you say they said but the real numbers, I am sure, are quite different. They are more like 17% Democrats, 16% Republicans, 15% undecided and 52% who say, "A pox on both your houses." The 52% who realize that voting is a futile exercise.

This fall, 435 House seats "up for grabs," but only 11 seats are subject to an open election. The other 424 have so solidly locked up their seats that they are shoo-ins no matter how the people vote.

In 1965, two kneejerk liberals, one Democrat and one Republican were vying for Mayor of NYC. The center was somewhere between those two kneejerks. Bill Buckley entered the race because, he said, valid viewpoints were not being considered--he wanted to open the discussion--to move the argument from outside the left foul line to someplace on the field. That is also the reason he started National Review magazine.

Over the 50 years that you have catalogued, the center has shifted back and forth. Nixon said, "We are all Keynesians now," which Eisenhower wouldn't have understood. Under Dubya, government spending and government size are growing much faster than they did under Bubba, and the Constitution is being trashed at a rate unseen since FDR--the center has shifted remarkably even though your piddly numbers probably stayed the same.




29 posted on 06/21/2002 12:01:32 PM PDT by edger
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To: edger
Over the 50 years that you have catalogued, the center has shifted back and forth. Nixon said

Of course it has. That is what the contest is all about. I did not argue that the center never changes, I argued the left and right fight over it. He who wins the center wins. Both parties have won the center and both parties have lost the center. It is always up for grabs. And both parties have grabbed it.

But your statemnet that Ike was more conservative than Nixon is funnny. At the 1952 Republican Convention Everett Dirkson the Ill. Senator nominated Robert A. Taft for the presidency. In that nomination speech Dirkson accused Ike of being a Republican in name only. IKE was indeed a RINO and Everett in stentorian tones called him one.

Just a year before, in 1951, Harry Truman had offered Ike his support for the Democratic Nomination for President. Both Harry and Roosevelt had believed Ike was a Democrat. I wonder what Ike ever said that gave them that idea? Ike was Harrys first choice for the 1952 Democratic nomination for president. Ike turned him down. That is the reason for the hate looks Harry gave Ike at the inauguration in 1953 and why Harry told the media about Ikes English girl friend.

Ike was about as conservative as Jim Jeffords and Nelson Rockefeller. But the Pubies needed the center and the Demorats had had it since 1932. There was no way Barry Goldwater's hero Robert A Taft could win. So the pubies went for a center pleasing RINO. And the RINO went for the center and got it.

Oh by the way, did you know that WILIAM F. BUCKEY in his August 1980 edtion of national review trashed Reagan for going too far to appeal to the center?

William F. Buckley. Did you ever notice that little men who can't impress you with their thoughts, often try to impress you with big words.


30 posted on 06/21/2002 6:21:53 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Common Tator
Both the crooked Democrats and the Republican eunuchs are tax-and-spenders now. Where is the center? It is somewhere with the 52% in the red counties who are being screwed by the crooked political bean counters in the blue counties. Which is why this nation is rapidly descending to banana republic status and has some very bad days before it.

Why don't you read what I said, or have someone read it to you, because what I said is Eisenhower would not have understood Nixon's statement that we are all Keynesians now. Who said anything about conservative?

I have no interest in defending things I didn't say. And I'll bet you have an entire library of those smart-assed bold comments, don't you. You can have this one for free: It makes no difference how fast you are going if you are going down the wrong road.
31 posted on 06/22/2002 9:38:03 AM PDT by edger
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To: edger
Eisenhower would not have understood Nixon's statement that we are all Keynesians now

Eisenhower was a Keynesian. Nixon was refering to the Dirkson/Taft wing of the party who had come to believe in Keynesian economics after fighting them for decades. He was refering to the fact that almost all republicans had voted for his Keynesian policy. I do think Ike was bright enough to read the vote totals in the House and Senate and realize that former Keynesian opponents had voted for Keynesian policies. You are arguing that Ike could not figure out that most all the former Keynesian opponents had changed sides. They were now voting for Keynesian policy. I am sure Ike would have noticed and approved.

Ike was very bright.. So was Nixon. I will not discuss your level of illumination on reading voting totals.

Who was it selected Nixon as his running mate? Who greased the wheels for Nixon to run for president. Didn't Ike's son marry Nixon's daughter?

Who do you think NIXON went to for advice, Teddy Kennedy or IKE? Take your time.... I won't rush you for an answer.

Nixon and Ike discussed nearly every move Nixon made from 1952 until Ike's death in 1969. It was Ike that urged Nixon to work with the Democrats as Ike had done with LBJ and Sam Rayburn. It was Ike that urged Nixon to use party loyalty as Ike had seen FDR do in the 30s and 40s.

What you fail to understand is that Nixon's statement that "We are all Keynesians now" was not directed at the Democrats or the Rockefeller wing of the Republican party. It was NOT directed to that portion of the Republican party to which both IKE and NIXON belonged. It was said about the Taft/Dirkson/Goldwater wing of the party as lead by Dirkson's son-in-law Senator Howard Baker of Tennesee.

You apparently are arguing that Ike would not have understood that the Taft/Dirkson/Goldwater/Baker wing of the Republican party would someday come to support Ike's views on the economy.

IKE was the one that convinced NIXON their minds could be changed. It was Ike's belief that after the terrible 1964 defeat of the far right, that Dick could make a political comeback. Ike believed that Nixon could bring the Republican Party into the mainstream of political thought. Ike urged NIXON to move the Republican party from the minority party status to a status equal to the Democratic party it enjoys today. Nixon tried to move to the center just like Ike told him to do.

Ike was very concerned about a single party America. He was certain that if he had run as a Democrat in 1952 he would have won. He was convinced that if he did so Americans would have chosen Democrats in 9 and perhaps 10 straight presidential elections. Ike was especially concerned that one party not control the House and Senate for 40 straight years. Ike was concered, very concerned, about the corruption that would entail over 40 straight years of uninterrupted Democratic power. That is why IKE ran as a Republican. That is why he urged NIXON to fix it so 'WE WERE ALL KEYNESIANS NOW'. He knew that the Republicans would have to move to the center to attract the center and win some of the elections. "We are all Keynesians" now was an Ike Eisenhower plan that Nixon implemented.

Did you ever notice that not knowing what they are talking about, does not stop some people from talking?


32 posted on 06/22/2002 5:50:31 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Common Tator
Did you ever notice that not knowing what they are talking about, does not stop some people from talking?

I noticed that. Lately. But you go ahead and tell yourself whatever it is you want to hear and I will go elsewhere.

33 posted on 06/22/2002 7:04:33 PM PDT by edger
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To: Common Tator
Didn't Ike's son marry Nixon's daughter?

Actually, was it not his grandson who married Julie Nixon?

Anyhow, might you address my questions in #28? My interest in your point of view is genuine.

34 posted on 06/23/2002 10:05:29 AM PDT by RJCogburn
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