Microsoft .Net software's hidden cost

Yahoo ^ | Sat Jun 22,11:11 AM ET | Joe Wilcox

[Dominic Harr]

For discussion purposes.

I do believe that in the long run, upgrading to .NET and C# is a must for anyone using current MS technologies.

For Java developers, it's an expensive step backwards, of course.

But if you're MS-only, in spite of the cost and pain, .NET is going to be a major step forward.

Once the bugs are worked out, once .NET server is finally released and then debugged, eventually .NET will be a net plus.

It's important for all developers to start looking into .NET now. Only by working with it can you know it's good and bad.

[Dominic Harr]

And now for something completely different . . .
A man with two noses.

Ping.

[Strider]

But if you're MS-only, in spite of the cost and pain, .NET is going to be a major step forward.

I agree.

They left Visual FoxPro out of .NET, which is a little troubling. But, VFP does work with Web Services, so we'll see.

More cost and pain from Microsoft. Oh well. .NET will be worth it this time.

[TechJunkYard]

Ari Bixhorn, Microsoft's product manager for Visual Basic.Net, disputed Gartner's conclusions. He said most conversions to .Net are about 95 percent error-free, meaning they can be completed at a cost much lower than what Gartner estimates.

That's a mighty tall claim there, pardner, considering the horse you rode in on.

[Bush2000]

Otherwise known as damning with faint praise...

[dheretic]

1. Of course it would be a step backward for most Java developers, they're already using what works for them and what works for them probably isn't running on a Microsoft OS.
2. And of course there are going to be heavy costs related to switching. VB.NET is still very different from VB in many ways. C# is a new language. It would be almost as hard to go from Carbon to COCOA for MacOS X developers as it would be for Win32 developers to go to .NET. Totally new languages, totally new APIs.

The only problem with .NET is that Microsoft did not relinquish control of its patents to the W3C or some other organization as a show of good will to prove that they don't want to turn .NET into a trojan horse. What happens to the mono project 6 months to a 2 years from now when it is starting to get mature? How do they know that Microsoft won't exercise its IP "rights" and crush them through litigation and not the marketplace? Seriously, there are no benefits to using .NET right now if you aren't already stuck developing for Windows. IMO, .NET will probably just be a clean way to write Windows apps in such a way that the sophomore CS major intern code monkeys can understand. Not that that's a bad thing. That's still a major leap forward for Microsoft.

[Dominic Harr]

They left Visual FoxPro out of .NET, which is a little troubling.

I don't see that as a problem. I don't think many people working in FoxPro want to compile to the clr.

I think the entire concept of .NET supporting many languages is a bit of a joke, to be honest. I don't believe there is a business need to write Cobol on PCs.

.NET is about VB.NET and C#. The rest is all sales pitch.

And VB.NET is a major leap forward for VB.

[Dominic Harr]

That's a mighty tall claim there, pardner, considering the horse you rode in on.

Absolutely, it's important to blow off what the .NET salesmen say.

I've been shredded for not being pro-.NET enough by B2k and his fellow salesmen.

They claim it's ready for mission-critical work today!

[Dominic Harr]

How do they know that Microsoft won't exercise its IP "rights" and crush them through litigation and not the marketplace?

You are right, the study didn't look at the costs of being under MS's thumb.

Maybe they should have.

[Dominic Harr]

Otherwise known as damning with faint praise...

Ah, that's right, you think I'm not pro-.NET enough.

All this pointing out that there is bad with the good is not allowed! No free thinking on your own allowed! NO balanced opinions of MS will be allowed!

Get back in line, Harr, and do what MS tells you. Just parrot the scripts MS puts out, like B2k does!

[PatrioticAmerican]

Remember that most companies who are looking at .NET and are using ASP REALLY need to upgrade to something better. (Anything is better!) So, J2EE or .NET? I'd say from ASP to ASP.NET using C# is a far shorter transition period that moving to Java, leveraging existing ASP knowledge.

AS I have posted before, the market will most likely always be split and the competition is very healthy for both sides. Without .NET pushing Java and Java pushing .NET, not much will ever get done. I actually wish another large third party would join the market with a third competing technology. Frankly, I don't believe that the best ideas can be incorporated into only two product lines. Open source certainly is another venue for ideas, but we really need more.

[Bush2000]

Ah, that's right, you think I'm not pro-.NET enough.

Those of us familiar with your MO know how you operate. You say a few tepid words about .NET and ... when the dust settles, you turn around and make unsubstantiated claims that it's "at least two years away from being useful." Naturally, when pressed for proof, you don't have the cajônes. There's really no point in debating this issue. You've done it so repeatedly that it's de rigeur.

[Dominic Harr]

I'd say from ASP to ASP.NET using C# is a far shorter transition period that moving to Java, leveraging existing ASP knowledge.

And I'd say that's sales pitch.

Having looked into it myself . . .

And as this article seems to confirm.

[Dominic Harr]

You say a few tepid words about .NET and ... when the dust settles, you turn around and make unsubstantiated claims that it's "at least two years away from being useful.

Right, I diverge from your script by admitting that there is both good and bad about .NET. The bad is never to be admitted to, it shows signs of independent thought.

Remeber the thread Has anyone been involved in a large .net installation? recently?

Remember how it turned out that no one had completed any major implementations?

Not one. 3 or 4 cheerleaders who said it was 'way cool', but no actual success stories. "Look at the MS press releases" was the answer. In fact, rather than discuss .NET it became a thread largely dedicated to personal insults? That thread alone said more about .NET than I ever could.

But I believe .NET will get to where java is today, in 3 or 4 years.

Clearly, tho, it isn't there yet. Heck, as of this moment, the fact that .NET requires IIS is a deal-breaker for almost all serious work.

[Bush2000]

Remeber the thread Has anyone been involved in a large .net installation? recently? Remember how it turned out that no one had completed any major implementations?

Do you actually believe your own BS?!? There were only 25 responses to that thread, troll -- and many of them were Mac/Linux users who have a vested interest in seeing .NET crash and burn. I'd hardly call that evidence one way or another.

[Bush2000]

But I believe .NET will get to where java is today, in 3 or 4 years.

That's pretty hilarious because Giga says that .NET is eclipsing J2EE in web services -- already.

[Mr. Jeeves]

I'd say from ASP to ASP.NET using C# is a far shorter transition period that moving to Java, leveraging existing ASP knowledge.

Absolutely correct. I had an application that took me eight weeks to code and test in ASP.

Converting it to ASP.NET took eight hours.

Rewriting the whole thing in Java would have taken at least two weeks, maybe longer.

[Dominic Harr]

There were only 25 responses to that thread, troll --

That's the point, silly.

That fellow put out an open call for .NET success stories, and didn't get any.

If you did the same thing, only asked about Java success stories, you'd be inundated with responses and details.

The only folks using .NET now are the ones paid to try and make .NET work. And they aren't having any big successes yet, as far as anyone can tell. A few small successes, as I have myself had. A few small tools. But large-scale production systems. They're all running into serious problems.

Oh, sure, you MS salesmen *claim* great things. Then never point to one single example. Just trust ya'll, we're told.

[Dominic Harr]

Converting it to ASP.NET took eight hours.

Interesting. May I ask what sort of app?

[Bush2000]

That fellow put out an open call for .NET success stories, and didn't get any.

Think Venn diagram, Harr. There's a large community of developers out there. Set A. There's a tiny fragment of those developers here on Free Republic. Set B. There's an even tinier fragment which saw that thread. Intersect the sets. (I know they didn't teach you set theory in business school, Harr, but try not to hold the class behind, ok?)