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Microsoft .Net software's hidden cost
Yahoo ^ | Sat Jun 22,11:11 AM ET | Joe Wilcox

Posted on 06/22/2002 12:48:53 PM PDT by Dominic Harr

Microsoft .Net software's hidden cost
Sat Jun 22,11:11 AM ET

Joe Wilcox

Companies planning on moving their old programs to Microsoft's new .Net software plan had better prepare for sticker shock: Making the conversion could cost roughly half of the original development cost, Gartner says.

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According to a new cost model devised by Gartner, the cost of moving older Windows programs to .Net may range from 40 percent to as much as 60 percent of the cost of developing the programs in the first place.

That may come as a blow to penny-pinching information systems departments in big companies, even those very familiar with Windows programming.

Typically, moving to a new software release isn't so costly. But, warns Gartner's Mark Driver, .Net isn't just a new release of Windows.

"People mistakenly assume the cost of upgrading will somehow be the same as going from one version of a well-established product to another. That's definitely not the case (with .Net)," said Driver, who devised the cost model.

Ari Bixhorn, Microsoft's product manager for Visual Basic.Net, disputed Gartner's conclusions. He said most conversions to .Net are about 95 percent error-free, meaning they can be completed at a cost much lower than what Gartner estimates.

Gartner, however, considered factors other than code conversions in its analysis, such as training and lost productivity. Bixhorn said he didn't see either training or productivity problems as much of a concern.

Microsoft's .Net plan includes new releases of the company's Windows operating system and other server software, along with development tools and infrastructure to make programs more Internet-aware. One new technology supported by .Net is Web services, which promise to make linking internal computer systems, and systems residing in multiple companies, far easier than current methods.

What's unclear is whether the additional cost of moving to .Net will slow Web services releases. Several technology buyers told News.com this week that they are waiting for additional standards and better compatibility before they commit to large-scale projects.

The most prominent piece of .Net released so far is Visual Studio.Net, a new version of Microsoft's development tool package, which debuted in February.

Visual Studio.Net includes new versions of familiar tools such as Visual Basic and Visual C++. But the tool bundle is radically different than predecessors. It includes a new development language called Visual C# (pronounced "see sharp"), and introduces the .Net Framework and Common Language Runtime, which are technologies for managing and running programs.

The new development tool package also ushers in ASP.Net, a specialized type of software called a class library, replacing an older technology called Active Server Pages (ASP) for creating Web applications that support new Web services technology.

Still, long term, Driver predicted that making the switch to .Net for building new programs would help lift productivity and create more efficiency within companies.

"Over the course of the lifetime of an application, .Net might give you 20 percent cost advantage or more over using the older technologies," he said. "You will be able to recover that migration cost over the course of three to five years."

Companies making the switch could do so all at once, but most will likely make the change over a longer period of time. Either way, the cost of migration stays the same.

"It's an issue of paying the 60 percent up front or over the course of three years," Driver said.

The largest cost is code conversion. Because it is difficult to calculate, the 60 percent estimate in some cases could be too low.

The cutting edge can hurt
Gartner based its migration cost estimates on Visual Basic.Net and not on its cutting-edge, Java-like Visual C# programming language. One reason: Cost. A forthcoming study will say the migration cost associated with C# would be even higher than the standard Visual Studio .Net tools, Driver said.

"Some clients have asked about going directly to C#," Driver said. "For the vast majority, going from Visual Basic to Visual Basic.Net may be painful, but it's going to be the least painful of the strategies."

C# is seen as a crucial programming language for advancing .Net. Use of the language doubled in six months, according to a March study by Evans Data.

Without a doubt, companies switching to the new tools and migrating software applications over the long haul will find the switch over the easiest, but even they face difficulties in planning. Driver used the example of a developer running the older version of Visual Studio and Visual Studio .Net over a protracted period.

"That becomes untenable at some point," he said. "You've got to make the switch. So even if you go with a hybrid model, you've got to remember that you're spreading your resources thin over two different platforms."

There are other concerns about making the switch to .Net. At the top of the list is security, Driver said. Following a January memo from Chairman Bill Gates ( news - web sites), Microsoft cranked up emphasis on security. But problems have still surfaced in recent months.

"Some people are hesitant to put Internet Information Server (behind a public Web site) because of security issues. Well, .Net doesn't really address those problems," Driver said. "IIS is still just as vulnerable with .Net running behind it as the older ASP (Active Server Pages) code running behind it."

IBM and Sun also are pushing hard into Web services, advancing their own technology strategies and tools.

Security will be an important part of that emerging market. Market researcher ZapLink said on Thursday that the Extensible Markup Language ( XML) and Web Services security market would top $4.4 billion in 2006.


TOPICS: Technical
KEYWORDS: c; microsoft; net; techindex
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For discussion purposes.

I do believe that in the long run, upgrading to .NET and C# is a must for anyone using current MS technologies.

For Java developers, it's an expensive step backwards, of course.

But if you're MS-only, in spite of the cost and pain, .NET is going to be a major step forward.

Once the bugs are worked out, once .NET server is finally released and then debugged, eventually .NET will be a net plus.

It's important for all developers to start looking into .NET now. Only by working with it can you know it's good and bad.

1 posted on 06/22/2002 12:48:53 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: *Microsoft; *tech_index
And now for something completely different . . .
A man with two noses.

Ping.

2 posted on 06/22/2002 12:55:33 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
But if you're MS-only, in spite of the cost and pain, .NET is going to be a major step forward.

I agree.

They left Visual FoxPro out of .NET, which is a little troubling. But, VFP does work with Web Services, so we'll see.

More cost and pain from Microsoft. Oh well. .NET will be worth it this time.

3 posted on 06/22/2002 1:38:41 PM PDT by Strider
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To: Dominic Harr
Ari Bixhorn, Microsoft's product manager for Visual Basic.Net, disputed Gartner's conclusions. He said most conversions to .Net are about 95 percent error-free, meaning they can be completed at a cost much lower than what Gartner estimates.

That's a mighty tall claim there, pardner, considering the horse you rode in on.

4 posted on 06/22/2002 2:13:16 PM PDT by TechJunkYard
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To: Dominic Harr
Otherwise known as damning with faint praise...
5 posted on 06/22/2002 10:12:39 PM PDT by Bush2000
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To: Dominic Harr
  1. Of course it would be a step backward for most Java developers, they're already using what works for them and what works for them probably isn't running on a Microsoft OS.
  2. And of course there are going to be heavy costs related to switching. VB.NET is still very different from VB in many ways. C# is a new language. It would be almost as hard to go from Carbon to COCOA for MacOS X developers as it would be for Win32 developers to go to .NET. Totally new languages, totally new APIs.

The only problem with .NET is that Microsoft did not relinquish control of its patents to the W3C or some other organization as a show of good will to prove that they don't want to turn .NET into a trojan horse. What happens to the mono project 6 months to a 2 years from now when it is starting to get mature? How do they know that Microsoft won't exercise its IP "rights" and crush them through litigation and not the marketplace? Seriously, there are no benefits to using .NET right now if you aren't already stuck developing for Windows. IMO, .NET will probably just be a clean way to write Windows apps in such a way that the sophomore CS major intern code monkeys can understand. Not that that's a bad thing. That's still a major leap forward for Microsoft.

6 posted on 06/22/2002 10:54:58 PM PDT by dheretic
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To: Strider
They left Visual FoxPro out of .NET, which is a little troubling.

I don't see that as a problem. I don't think many people working in FoxPro want to compile to the clr.

I think the entire concept of .NET supporting many languages is a bit of a joke, to be honest. I don't believe there is a business need to write Cobol on PCs.

.NET is about VB.NET and C#. The rest is all sales pitch.

And VB.NET is a major leap forward for VB.

7 posted on 06/23/2002 8:06:36 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: TechJunkYard
That's a mighty tall claim there, pardner, considering the horse you rode in on.

Absolutely, it's important to blow off what the .NET salesmen say.

I've been shredded for not being pro-.NET enough by B2k and his fellow salesmen.

They claim it's ready for mission-critical work today!

8 posted on 06/23/2002 8:08:33 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: dheretic
How do they know that Microsoft won't exercise its IP "rights" and crush them through litigation and not the marketplace?

You are right, the study didn't look at the costs of being under MS's thumb.

Maybe they should have.

9 posted on 06/23/2002 8:10:33 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Bush2000
Otherwise known as damning with faint praise...

Ah, that's right, you think I'm not pro-.NET enough.

All this pointing out that there is bad with the good is not allowed! No free thinking on your own allowed! NO balanced opinions of MS will be allowed!

Get back in line, Harr, and do what MS tells you. Just parrot the scripts MS puts out, like B2k does!

10 posted on 06/23/2002 8:13:27 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
Remember that most companies who are looking at .NET and are using ASP REALLY need to upgrade to something better. (Anything is better!) So, J2EE or .NET? I'd say from ASP to ASP.NET using C# is a far shorter transition period that moving to Java, leveraging existing ASP knowledge.

AS I have posted before, the market will most likely always be split and the competition is very healthy for both sides. Without .NET pushing Java and Java pushing .NET, not much will ever get done. I actually wish another large third party would join the market with a third competing technology. Frankly, I don't believe that the best ideas can be incorporated into only two product lines. Open source certainly is another venue for ideas, but we really need more.

11 posted on 06/23/2002 8:56:22 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Dominic Harr
Ah, that's right, you think I'm not pro-.NET enough.

Those of us familiar with your MO know how you operate. You say a few tepid words about .NET and ... when the dust settles, you turn around and make unsubstantiated claims that it's "at least two years away from being useful." Naturally, when pressed for proof, you don't have the cajônes. There's really no point in debating this issue. You've done it so repeatedly that it's de rigeur.
12 posted on 06/23/2002 10:28:24 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: PatrioticAmerican
I'd say from ASP to ASP.NET using C# is a far shorter transition period that moving to Java, leveraging existing ASP knowledge.

And I'd say that's sales pitch.

Having looked into it myself . . .

And as this article seems to confirm.

13 posted on 06/23/2002 11:09:02 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Bush2000
You say a few tepid words about .NET and ... when the dust settles, you turn around and make unsubstantiated claims that it's "at least two years away from being useful.

Right, I diverge from your script by admitting that there is both good and bad about .NET. The bad is never to be admitted to, it shows signs of independent thought.

Remeber the thread Has anyone been involved in a large .net installation? recently?

Remember how it turned out that no one had completed any major implementations?

Not one. 3 or 4 cheerleaders who said it was 'way cool', but no actual success stories. "Look at the MS press releases" was the answer. In fact, rather than discuss .NET it became a thread largely dedicated to personal insults? That thread alone said more about .NET than I ever could.

But I believe .NET will get to where java is today, in 3 or 4 years.

Clearly, tho, it isn't there yet. Heck, as of this moment, the fact that .NET requires IIS is a deal-breaker for almost all serious work.

14 posted on 06/23/2002 11:17:37 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
Remeber the thread Has anyone been involved in a large .net installation? recently? Remember how it turned out that no one had completed any major implementations?

Do you actually believe your own BS?!? There were only 25 responses to that thread, troll -- and many of them were Mac/Linux users who have a vested interest in seeing .NET crash and burn. I'd hardly call that evidence one way or another.
15 posted on 06/23/2002 12:30:43 PM PDT by Bush2000
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To: Dominic Harr
But I believe .NET will get to where java is today, in 3 or 4 years.

That's pretty hilarious because Giga says that .NET is eclipsing J2EE in web services -- already.
16 posted on 06/23/2002 12:33:56 PM PDT by Bush2000
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To: PatrioticAmerican
I'd say from ASP to ASP.NET using C# is a far shorter transition period that moving to Java, leveraging existing ASP knowledge.

Absolutely correct. I had an application that took me eight weeks to code and test in ASP.

Converting it to ASP.NET took eight hours.

Rewriting the whole thing in Java would have taken at least two weeks, maybe longer.

17 posted on 06/23/2002 12:47:25 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Bush2000
There were only 25 responses to that thread, troll --

That's the point, silly.

That fellow put out an open call for .NET success stories, and didn't get any.

If you did the same thing, only asked about Java success stories, you'd be inundated with responses and details.

The only folks using .NET now are the ones paid to try and make .NET work. And they aren't having any big successes yet, as far as anyone can tell. A few small successes, as I have myself had. A few small tools. But large-scale production systems. They're all running into serious problems.

Oh, sure, you MS salesmen *claim* great things. Then never point to one single example. Just trust ya'll, we're told.

18 posted on 06/23/2002 1:15:31 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Mr. Jeeves
Converting it to ASP.NET took eight hours.

Interesting. May I ask what sort of app?

19 posted on 06/23/2002 1:16:13 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
That fellow put out an open call for .NET success stories, and didn't get any.

Think Venn diagram, Harr. There's a large community of developers out there. Set A. There's a tiny fragment of those developers here on Free Republic. Set B. There's an even tinier fragment which saw that thread. Intersect the sets. (I know they didn't teach you set theory in business school, Harr, but try not to hold the class behind, ok?)
20 posted on 06/23/2002 1:57:46 PM PDT by Bush2000
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To: Bush2000
Those of us familiar with your MO know how you operate.

Yeppers. He's a Java bigot. He thinks anyone who uses anything else is ignorant. I'm sure he'd love for Ralph Nader and the other leftist commies at Sun to be able to force the government to regulate (dictate) what you run on your desktop. He also criticizes operating systems he's never even used. This is the same moron who called IBM's MVS and Digital's VMS operating systems unstable. Apparently even Linux wizards Alan Cox and Linus Torvalds acknowledge those OS's superior to Linux. Check your stock prices... IBM and Microsoft are doing very nicely thank you. Sun?...well it's doubtful they will survive the next 5 years. Finally Sun just blew it with the JDK 1.4 release big time. They crippled the Windows sockets/NIO implementation and blamed it on MS. Probably intentionally as they don't intend on fixing it for 6 months. Now they just shot themselves in the foot as that gives those writing high performance servers more reason to flush Sun. Can't play with the big boys in big leagues at all. However, I do predict that IBM will probably at some point end up owning this franchise run by pimply faced kids, and make something out of it. At that point Microsoft may well get back into the Java ring since they won't have to negotiate with retards.

21 posted on 06/23/2002 2:19:06 PM PDT by Rightwing Conspiratr1
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To: Dominic Harr
.NET case studies. Why can't you read and do your own research? Hell, this came from Microsoft's site, for you to find, instead of bashing .NET and saying that "no one" is using it.

Accenture
Accenture software architect and consultant Dennis Wagner worked closely with a team from Avanade to build materials that will help clients develop scalable, reliable applications for the Microsoft .NET Framework.

ACCOR Services
With the .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET development tools, ACCOR Services is building an integrated, homogeneous platform for its back-office applications and XML Web services.

American Electric Power
Developers at American Electric Power are using Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework to share code and knowledge, and collaborate across distances as virtual teams.

Arthur Andersen
Most people would say that it's crazy to build a mission-critical application on a beta platform, but Arthur Andersen's e-business consultants successfully built a new application for reviewing and monitoring medical research using Microsoft .NET.

Autodesk
When Autodesk wanted to prototype building a new client-server analysis and visualization application for all of its drawing file formats, it turned to Microsoft .NET.

Babcock & Jenkins
Babcock & Jenkins only recently began developing its next-generation applications with the .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET, and it is already realizing impressive gains in developer productivity.

Banco Itaú
Banco Itaú developed and deployed a Web-based online payment solution for its customers using the Microsoft .NET platform and other Microsoft technologies.

Bank of Nova Scotia
When Scotiabank's Dealer Finance Centre network's existing mainframe system failed to produce timely monthly reports, they resolved to build two new applications with Microsoft .NET.

Best Software
For Best Software, keeping up with the times means, in part, keeping up with Microsoft operating systems; so as Microsoft moves to the .NET architecture, Best Software is following suit.

BindView
Utilizing the .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET, BindView is creating security solutions that enable customers to manage security policies and run security checks through a single, Web-based interface.

Brierley & Partners
Brierley & Partners used Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework to build an integrated, Web-based customer relationship management (CRM) solution.

Buy.com
In just two weeks, two Buy.com developers using Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework created a personalized shopping portal that provides customers with faster access to products of interest, account information, and order status.

Cap Gemini Ernst & Young
When Cap Gemini Ernst & Young (CGE&Y) decided to get their feet wet with Microsoft .NET, the company chose to implement a generic framework that its consultants could reuse on other projects.

Carnival Cruise Lines
When Carnival Cruise Lines needed quick turnaround on creating a Web-based application for processing customer information requests about the company's ships and cruises, it turned to Microsoft .NET and Microsoft Windows®.

Clarus Corporation
Using Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework, Clarus Corporation has created ClarusNet, a collection of services that gives Clarus developers easy access to the tools they need to produce valuable business-to-business (B2B) solutions.

Click Commerce
Learn why Click Commerce rewrote its core application with Microsoft ASP.NET and C#.

Compaq
Using the .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET, Compaq quickly built a powerful XML Web service that is now providing B2B and business-to-consumer (B2C) access to its Enterprise Resource Planning system.

Comprehensive Software Systems (CSS)
Faced with an ever increasing demand for wireless services, CSS created ECMExpress using Visual Studio .NET and Microsoft ASP.NET with the Microsoft Mobile Internet Toolkit.

Continental Airlines
By developing a mobile travel-planning application with the.NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET, Continental Airlines is significantly reducing deployment time, eliminating overhead, and providing transparent interoperability with host systems.

Corillian
To produce its financial transaction technology for consumers, Corillian has made a commitment to the .NET platform, adopting the .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET.

Credit Suisse First Boston
Based on the .NET Framework, CSFB's Zero Impact Application Deployment (ZIAD) initiative is designed to reduce the cost of deploying and supporting desktop applications.

CyberWatcher
Seeking more powerful integration and communications capabilities, CyberWatcher is implementing a new release of its Web-based data mining software using the .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET.

Deutsche Bank
Deutsche Bank's Global Equity Derivatives unit gave its developers access to XML Web services and ASP.NET custom controls with Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework.

divine, Inc.
Using Microsoft .NET technology, divine developed an Operational Support System featuring more than 800,000 lines of code written in Microsoft Visual Basic® .NET, and used Microsoft BizTalk® Server for integration to other enterprise application platforms.

Dollar Rent A Car
Dollar Rent A Car generated millions of dollars in additional revenue by using Microsoft .NET to create an XML Web service interface to expose its existing mainframe-based reservation system.

Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein
Developers at investment bank Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein (DrKW) have found that the .NET Framework, Visual Studio .NET, and C# deliver a Rapid Application Development (RAD) platform that can be developed quickly and meets users' needs.

Eclipsys Corporation
Eclipsys Corporation is using Microsoft .NET to meet its goal—to make the SunriseXA architecture the "Microsoft Office of Healthcare."

EdgeRender Inc.
The Microsoft .NET platform has allowed EdgeRender to achieve its goal of quickly and affordably producing the richest products and services possible.

EDS
EDS was developing its E-vis applications on UNIX, but has now adopted the Microsoft .NET Framework, and is developing its next-generation solution with Visual Studio .NET.

Emirates Group
When the Emirates Group decided in April to join with MSN® Arabia to build the MSN Arabia Travel Channel, they decided to build the site using Microsoft .NET, with additional technology from Galileo.

ESRI
Using Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework, ESRI is providing its clients with the means to easily incorporate geographic information system (GIS) technology into their applications.

FrontRange Solutions, Inc.
FrontRange Solutions, Inc., chose Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework as the integrated development environment to unite its more than 60 developers who came together from the merger of three companies. See other FrontRange Solutions case studies.

Global Trade Technologies, Inc.
Learn how Global Trade Technologies, Inc. built a subscription B2B e-commerce bond-trading Web site for retail broker/dealers using Microsoft .NET technology.

Harris Interactive
Harris Interactive is creating an online registration system with the .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET, reducing development time, increasing database searching speed, and providing flexible business logic.

Home Shopping Network (HSN)
In just three weeks, HSN ported the search functionality on its premier Internet shopping site to the .NET Framework, using Visual Studio .NET, Web Forms, ASP.NET, and Microsoft ADO.NET. See other HSN case studies.

Impact Technologies
Impact Technologies develops software for financial needs analysis, business planning and estate planning. Find out why they chose to deploy seven Web applications with Microsoft .NET.

JetBlue Airways
Using Visual Studio .NET, JetBlue developers built a high-performance application supporting a Web-based company store in record time.

KVault Software
The decision to build a Microsoft .NET-based service allowed KVault Software to expand its market by making its flagship product available to small and medium-sized businesses as quickly as possible.

L'Oréal
Using Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework, L'Oréal realized a single Web-based platform that can be leveraged across the company's diverse set of brands, geographies, and business needs.

Mary Kay Inc.
Discover why Mary Kay is using Microsoft .NET to implement a centralized ordering system for its 850,000 consultants.

Merrill Lynch
For Merrill Lynch, a three-tier architecture based on Microsoft ASP.NET, VoiceXML, and XML Web services turned out to meet all the criteria for a successful voice-response system.

Microsoft Sales and Support IT Team (SSIT)
In eight weeks, the SSIT Team laid the foundation for a customer relationship management (CRM) infrastructure that pulls together data from multiple sources to provide a holistic view of the customer across all points of contact.

The National Cancer Institute
The main National Cancer Institute Web site, cancer.gov, has been redesigned, re-implemented, and dramatically improved using Microsoft .NET, C#, and ASP.NET.

Navision a/s
With Microsoft .NET, Navision is building an integrated business solution that can easily be adapted to the needs of a local and/or vertical market.

NDCHealth
Using Visual Studio .NET and the.NET Framework, NDCHealth is developing a solution that will streamline the time required for customers to obtain estimates for new project requests, and provide a two-fold increase in Web developer productivity.

Newport News Shipbuilding
Naptheon, Inc., a subsidiary of Newport News Shipbuilding, used the.NET platform, to improve its speed-to-market by 19 percent in building and launching its new application, ShipRepair.NET.

OneSource
OneSource has taken advantage of Microsoft .NET technology to begin delivering and deploying access to their content and functionality via XML Web services and SOAP.

Pacific Life
By using Microsoft .NET to develop XML Web services, Pacific Life's Life Insurance Division found a better way to exchange data and processes with their business associates.

Pitney Bowes
Pitney Bowes has used its shipping expertise to create an XML Web service that does accurate package pricing and rate shopping.

ProTier
For ProTier, the adoption of Visual Studio .NET and the .NET Framework created a more efficient and manageable development process, allowing ProTier to turn ideas into products faster.

Rainier Technology, Inc.
Rainier recently built a feature-rich, Microsoft .NET-based Web application to assist businesses seeking to produce retirement plans for employees.

Sapient Corporation
With the help of the Microsoft .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET development environment, Sapient Corporation built a medical/health-information and management solution for corporations with on-site clinics.

Scandinavian Airlines System
Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS) used Visual Studio .NET and the Mobile Internet Toolkit, to provide new services to its increasingly wireless customer base. Now, customers can check flight status and rebook flights from mobile phones and devices.

Siemens Energy and Automation
The Industrial Automation group of Siemens Energy and Automation is developing prototypes of a new generation of HMI Panels using the Microsoft .NET Compact Framework.

Simplexity, Inc.
Learn why Simplexity had been developing its Web solutions on the Java platform but has now migrated to the Microsoft .NET platform.

SunGard
SunGard Trading and Risk Systems turned to Visual Studio .NET to provide Web-based access to its powerful Panorama calculating engines, databases, and other Web services. See other Sungard case studies.

Telenor
Telenor, the Norwegian telecommunications group with international operations, used Visual Studio .NET to replace its online point-of-sale customer service system on time and on budget.

Toshiba TEC Corporation
Toshiba TEC has not only adopted Microsoft .NET, but also has built a reusable framework and development tools around .NET for building Retail Information Systems.

Travelers Property Casualty
Travelers Property Casualty used Microsoft .NET and Visual Studio .NET to build a set of XML Web services for servicing auto glass damage claims.

U.S. Army
The Contractor Support Element (CSE) of the U.S. Army’s Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) shifted from a manual system based on faxes and other paper documents, to an online system that they created using Visual Studio .NET.

USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service
The USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) expects to greatly enhance its easement tracking services by deploying an n-tier .NET-based Web solution created by Synergetics, Inc.

Universal Forest Products, Inc.
When Universal Forest Products needed a new centralized Production Scheduling System, they turned to SageStone, Inc. and the Visual Studio .NET development system.

UnumProvident Direct
By migrating to the Microsoft .NET platform, UnumProvident Direct (UPD) expects to greatly improve its ability to service business partners with a dynamic visual interface and inter-component communication.

Webridge
Powered by Microsoft .NET, Webridge Extranet utilizes the .NET Framework to provide an easy-to-implement, cost-effective way to build and customize extranet portals.

West Group
West Group used Visual Studio .NET and the.NET Framework to develop ease-of-use enhancements to its WestFind&Print service, giving researchers easy access to its services.

Wizards of the Coast
When players of MLB Showdown wanted an online repository for its MLB Showdown sports card game stats, Wizards of the Coast developers turned to Microsoft .NET technology.

Xerox Global Services
Using Visual Studio .NET, Xerox Global Services developers rewrote an existing printer management solution from the ground-up in just six months—an effort that originally took a larger team 18 months to complete. See other Xerox Global Services case studies.

Zagat Survey
By building its new content management system using Visual Studio .NET, Zagat Survey will realize the benefits provided of building, deploying, and running XML Web services and applications.

Visual Studio .NET Customer Solutions
Read how companies have built sophisticated, enterprise-wide applications with Visual Studio .NET, and learn how they have dramatically reduced their usual development time.

Microsoft .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET Customers
Learn about the companies building and deploying XML Web services and distributed applications using the .NET Framework and Visual Studio .NET.


22 posted on 06/23/2002 5:07:46 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Dominic Harr
It was a custom reporting application. The user enters parameters into a Web Form, then ASP.NET fires off a series of SQL Server stored procedures. A background process runs MS Access to generate Word .RTF report files, and ASP.NET provides the user with links to the newly created files. Not a huge and complex enterprise application by any means, but there were plenty of tricks to work around.

ASP.NET was a big help, largely because of the vastly superior Visual Studio IDE. ASP programming always felt like groping in the dark. Anyone who has done a lot of ASP development will really appreciate ASP.NET.

23 posted on 06/23/2002 5:22:48 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
This is the same moron who called IBM's MVS and Digital's VMS operating systems unstable.

No, different moron, whoever that was.

I slung JCL and Cobol for too many years. MVS was plenty stable, altho somewhat labrynthine.

You're confused about a *lot* of things here, aren't you?

24 posted on 06/23/2002 9:35:39 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Hell, this came from Microsoft's site, for you to find, instead of bashing .NET and saying that "no one" is using it.

To repeat for the 324th time, I've all seen the MS-paid for "case studies".

I've actually read almost all of those. They've done some interesting things, altho nothing revolutionary. Prototyping, building some .NET tools, some theory work, and in the most advanced cases web forms. But in none of those case studies are there any details. That stuff is all by MS 'strategic partners' and 'early adopters' -- people specifically paid to find things for .NET to do, and with MS handling the press releases, which alone makes the entire thing suspect as a sales pitch.

We're looking for a single independent example, from real world developers, of a major, large-scale production system.

Know of any first-hand?

If .NET is as successful as you say, you must know of one, I assume?

25 posted on 06/23/2002 9:49:23 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Mr. Jeeves
It was a custom reporting application.

Cool. It's a good, solid app, sounds like.

May I ask if you had any issues porting the existing ASP code? And how much was written from scratch, and how much was migrated code?

26 posted on 06/23/2002 9:54:45 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Mr. Jeeves
Absolutely correct. I had an application that took me eight weeks to code and test in ASP.
Converting it to ASP.NET took eight hours.
Rewriting the whole thing in Java would have taken at least two weeks, maybe longer.

Um, I don't mean to be cheeky, really, but correct me if I'm wrong -- it sounds like perhaps you would have saved yourself 75% of your bosses time and money if you had just done it in Java to begin with?

Altho, from your description of the app, it would have taken you about 3-4 days in Java. That's one servlet. Or am I mistaken?

I honestly don't mean to be dense, if I'm missing something. It's just an odd thing you said.

27 posted on 06/23/2002 10:13:09 PM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
That stuff is all by MS 'strategic partners' and 'early adopters' -- people specifically paid to find things for .NET to do, and with MS handling the press releases, which alone makes the entire thing suspect as a sales pitch.

A. Of course they're partnered with MS. Did you expect them to be allied with Sun?!?

B. Where's your evidence that any of them were paid?!? Zippo. You don't have squat. Just more lame FUD from the resident Java bigot.

C. People deploying systems are too busy to spend time telling everybody about what they're using. And you're surprised by this?!?

D. You say you want independence. This is merely a euphemism for Anything-But-Microsoft.
28 posted on 06/23/2002 10:44:49 PM PDT by Bush2000
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To: Dominic Harr
I honestly don't mean to be dense...

We know it's not intentional. You can't help a low IQ any more than I can help pointing it out...
29 posted on 06/23/2002 10:47:02 PM PDT by Bush2000
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To: All; Dominic Harr
We're looking for a single independent example, from real world developers, of a major, large-scale production system.

Word to the wise: This is a fool's gambit. Harr will insist that anybody associated with .NET is "bought and paid for". The only ones independent enough for him to trust are those who aren't using .NET.
30 posted on 06/23/2002 10:53:05 PM PDT by Bush2000
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To: Bush2000
Just one will do.

You must know of one?

31 posted on 06/24/2002 1:33:03 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
Altho, from your description of the app, it would have taken you about 3-4 days in Java.

Except that we are an all-Microsoft shop with no Java expertise on staff (except me, and mine is dated). Java would have been a better solution for the original ASP application, but I can't see it being an improvement over the ASP.NET version.

32 posted on 06/24/2002 7:10:17 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Dominic Harr
May I ask if you had any issues porting the existing ASP code? And how much was written from scratch, and how much was migrated code?

The ASP (VBScript - yuk!) database code was all rewritten in VB.NET - it really wasn't ported so much as used as a model for the ASP.NET version. The Transact-SQL stored procedures required no changes, nor did the existing MS Access reports.

33 posted on 06/24/2002 7:15:03 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Mr. Jeeves
but I can't see it being an improvement over the ASP.NET version.

Well, it would have been more scalable and fault-tolerant, for sure.

ASP, even ASP.NET, doesn't scale very well.

You wouldn't have "single-vendor" lockin for your DB or web server -- there are far better web servers out there than IIS. If a more complex rich-client Gui was required, you'd be able to scale to a Java applet.

It would be less risky, since the Java has been heavily tested in real work for many years and the .NET version is brand-new, and certain to have many issues pop up.

And if you had done it in Java to begin with, you wouldn't have to have revisited the issue later, like you did.

It sounds like since you're an MS-only shop, they paid you to use the lesser technology even tho a better solution was available. You were forced to use the lesser technology. I'd say that's still the case with your locking to IIS and SQLServer.

You know, there is no such thing as a "Java-only" shop like there are MS-only shops.

You have 2 kinds of software shops -- ones that use the best solution available, regardless of tech (and they all use a mix of techs, with Java doing most of the heavy lifting) and then the shops who are 'MS Strategic Partners' and 'MS Early Adopters'. They're paid to use MS-only.

If MS is having to *pay* companies to *force* use of their technology, that is not a good sign for the technology's future.

34 posted on 06/24/2002 8:53:34 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Bush2000
Read Mr. Jeeves's post, and you'll see exactly why no one trusts the 'case studies' on MS's web page.

He billed that as a success for .NET. Upon further discussion, it turned out he could have done it better, faster and cheaper in Java, but was not allowed to "because they are an MS-only shop". And you know what an "MS-only shop" is -- one that is on one of MS's programs that rewards shops for only using MS techs, even when better solutions are out there.

They're literally having to force developers to use this stuff.

I ask one more time -- do you know of any real-world developers who have successfully deployed a large-scale production system?

35 posted on 06/24/2002 8:57:42 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
I just came off a two day conference on .Net.  I left more than a little annoyed.  Like the ADO scam, .Net is another MS scam attempting to force companies to revamp and upgrade all their MS software without delivering the huge step forward that justifies the cost.  In 4 or 5 years the technology will probably be viable and useful but right now it's just bloated, slow and annoying.


36 posted on 06/24/2002 9:12:15 AM PDT by Psycho_Bunny
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To: Dominic Harr
MS doesn't pay us. We have only 100 employees - and we use Microsoft products to avoid the Tower of Babel that results from adopting a "Best of Breed" approach. The simple fact is, for the kind of development we do, Microsoft tools work perfectly. SQL Server 2000 is ideally suited to our needs, IIS is easy to configure and secure enough for our Intranet, and Visual Studio .NET makes the kind of applications we build easy to roll out.

Until Microsoft flat-out fails to deliver on something big, we'll keep using their tools. We, like most other small to medium-sized companies, don't have time to be a "technology laboratory". Microsoft helps us get real work done fast - so that's why we use their products.

37 posted on 06/24/2002 9:15:38 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Psycho_Bunny
In 4 or 5 years the technology will probably be viable and useful but right now it's just bloated, slow and annoying.

Yeah, that was my impression, too.

But the salesmen seem to disagree . . .

38 posted on 06/24/2002 9:27:15 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Mr. Jeeves
Until Microsoft flat-out fails to deliver on something big, we'll keep using their tools.

Um, taking 8 weeks to do something you could have done better in 1 week *is* flat-out failing. You pay for IIS and SQLServer when better, cheaper alternatives would actually work better.

If you're a small shop, you could save a mint by migrating off of MS-only. Your dev time could have been faster, and your end product far better.

MS *did* fail to provide you the best, cheapest solution. And your company stays with them?

Are you certain your company doesn't have a strategic partnership with MS? I've never heard of a company going with a single-vendor lockin unless they were compensated.

39 posted on 06/24/2002 9:31:46 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
Um, taking 8 weeks to do something you could have done better in 1 week *is* flat-out failing.

Ever hear of business requirements? Systems analysis? Changing user specifications? A good portion of that 8 weeks was irreducible, regardless of platform. The actual ASP coding time was less.

You pay for IIS and SQLServer when better, cheaper alternatives would actually work better.

IIS is free. SQL Server is cheaper and easier to administer than Oracle, is superior at data transformation (a big deal in our shop), and supports stored procedures, which the free MySQL does not.

If you're a small shop, you could save a mint by migrating off of MS-only. Your dev time could have been faster, and your end product far better.

Ever hear of training expenses? Learning curves? Legacy code?

MS *did* fail to provide you the best, cheapest solution. And your company stays with them?

They provided us Visual Studio .NET, which is good and cheap enough for us. Traditional ASP's shortcomings at the time the application was originally developed are now irrelevant.

Are you certain your company doesn't have a strategic partnership with MS?

Such a partnership could only be established by me...so, no.

You are trying too hard to score propaganda points. Java isn't for everybody.

40 posted on 06/24/2002 10:07:15 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Mr. Jeeves
Of course he's also ignoring the fact that the second ime you write a program is always easier because you've solved the logic already. That's to be expected though, he's also chopped your estimate in half. That's how things go on these threads.
41 posted on 06/24/2002 10:27:31 AM PDT by discostu
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To: Mr. Jeeves
Ever hear of training expenses? Learning curves?

In my experience, trying to pay a vendor like MS instead of paying for training and in-house expertise will burn you every time.

As I said, in my experience there are better, cheaper solutions available that will involve less risk and fewer unknown product defects (which are *ceratinly* in .NET right now). MS has burned you already. Ya'll don't know it, because you don't know the alternatives.

IIS isn't "free", nor is SQLServer. I wouldn't use stored procedures for data input, I would seperate that logic out into code (it will run faster, and won't be a 'single-db' lockin).

I'm always amazed that MS's sales pitch of "use our solutions, you don't even have to be an expert to use them!"

Yes, you do. Or else you pay for it in the end, every time. If you're paying MS instead of developing your own tech expertise in-house, you will get burned. You'll pay more, and end up beholden to that single vendor. You have to use IIS (which is *very* inferior). And SQLServer, which is adequate but far over-priced (even compared to Oracle, because Oracle is a better far, far better DB as far as scalability is concerned).

Don't get me wrong. Java is not for everything. It is slightly slower to execute, so if you've got a flight-sim or something that has to number-crunch a million policies overnight, then use either C++ or Cobol on a mainframe.

But for web work, it is absolutely the very best, cheapest, fastest technology going. You are paying more for the MS solutions, and you're getting an inferior product. If you're "MS-Only", you might consider doing an analysis of non-MS techs and see if you really want to stick with the single vendor lockin.

Just a suggestion.

42 posted on 06/24/2002 10:31:28 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: discostu
That's to be expected though, he's also chopped your estimate in half.

I was being generous, in fact.

If the ASP code just has a web form that takes parms and then kicks off an SP, then spits out links to the screen, it likely would have taken me less than a day to do.

Assuming he wasn't too experienced with Java, I allowed a week.

That's pretty basic functionality.

I've written a similar reporting system here at CSC, for our HR dept and 'Program Office'.

I have to pull data from the 'MARS', 'RequisitionRequest', 'PIC' and 'Status' dbs in Lotus Domino, the Oracle db that accounting uses and the 'Hawk' SQLServer db to build reports.

The front-end is an applet, so it can do full data validation. The middle-tier is a servlet (we call it 'SQLServlet') that takes SQL calls and routes them to the correct DB, then builds the report data before returning the data to the applet -- which then formats and allows them to print the data.

.NET can *not* do that.

43 posted on 06/24/2002 10:45:11 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
You weren't being generous, you were being rude. He said he thinks it would take 2 weeks to rewrite the program in Java. Now you may or may not know Java better than he does, but I'm damn sure he knows the program better than you do. Either you believe him or you don't. If you don't believe him then you should ignore the entire post. If you do believe him then you should take his estimate at face value and work with that.
44 posted on 06/24/2002 11:04:37 AM PDT by discostu
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To: discostu
If you do believe him then you should take his estimate at face value and work with that.

If he isn't very familiar with Java, then his estimate at how long it would take in Java is suspect.

I have a lot of recent experience building *exactly* that type of tool, and I would think that *my* estimate might be a little more accurate.

But who knows? I could be wrong. I'm just giving you my best guess. You disagree with pretty much anything I say anyway, so I imagine that this discussion is moot?

45 posted on 06/24/2002 11:10:29 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
But you know neither his java skill nor much about the program. His thumbnail outline hardly gave any indication of the depth of the program or complexity. So again lacking any knowledge to the contrary the only polite thing to do is accept is estimate as given.
46 posted on 06/24/2002 11:25:36 AM PDT by discostu
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To: Dominic Harr
I wouldn't use stored procedures for data input, I would seperate that logic out into code (it will run faster, and won't be a 'single-db' lockin).

Please. There is no way that database statements embedded in code (which make programs harder to maintain, BTW - since you have to touch your code every time there is a database change) will run faster than compiled stored procedures.

But that's all beside the point. You just have a grudge against Microsoft, and I'm not going to help you indulge it any more this morning.

Ciao...

47 posted on 06/24/2002 11:25:54 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: discostu
His thumbnail outline hardly gave any indication of the depth of the program or complexity.

He completely described the app.

Ah, well. You disagree with me. I can live with that.

48 posted on 06/24/2002 11:34:00 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Mr. Jeeves
There is no way that database statements embedded in code (which make programs harder to maintain, BTW - since you have to touch your code every time there is a database change) will run faster than compiled stored procedures.

I once thought so too. But test it side by side.

And now that I've looked into it, it makes perfect sense.

A DB is not optimized for number-crunching. It's only optiimized for data storage and retrieval.

As you know, there are a hundred ways you can code the number-crunching part of report building. You often have to try it a half-dozen different ways to get the best performance. The DB will not do this.

Having the DB "build" a report is going to be slower than having a programming language build the report. The SP will have to build temporary tables, and the like, and that stuff is *slooooow*.

Try it. Try just doing simple SQL calls and bringing back the raw data as much as possible, and then building the report yourself. If you're MS-only, try C#.

And you do *not* have to touch the code when the db changes -- unless they change the names of fields, which would also disable the SPs.

In fact, you have a much *easier* time both writing and maintaining the code if it's in a language other than SQL.

Programming a complex report in SQL is a nightmare, compared to Java or C#.

And then there's the portability thing -- with SPs you're going to have a major problem migrating to other DBs. And with your architecture, if you have to add into that report some data that comes from another DB you're dead in the water, and need an entire re-write. That architecture will not scale.

I'm sorry you're closing your mind to non-MS solutions. I suppose if you work for an MS-only shop then that's sort of where you started, so I guess that's why you see me as just someone with an axe to grind.

Oh, well, good luck on your work.

49 posted on 06/24/2002 11:43:16 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Dominic Harr
>>.NET can *not* do that.

Actually it can.

There's a little thing called a winform that I can deploy on my webserver, if you browse to it it will download itself and all of its dependencies. From my wiform I can use web-services or remoting to get all my data. Winform does everything your applet does and more.

Glad you're still living in fantasy land Harr... I'm living in the real world doing all that stuff you're telling me I can't.
50 posted on 06/24/2002 11:52:34 AM PDT by CLRGuy
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