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Schools Pay for Boy Scout Recruiting (ACLU sticks it to the Portland public schools - My Title)
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_0713_news_boyscout_recruiting.cdc66e62.html ^ | 07/13/2002 | By AP Staff

Posted on 07/13/2002 1:04:52 PM PDT by fortress

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To: Texas Yellow Rose
That doesn't matter, they will not rest until there is nothing left around them to remind them there is a God.
They cannot handle the Truth and choose to hide from Him.
Because of this paranoia they want to force this ungodliness on those around them.
21 posted on 07/14/2002 12:55:02 PM PDT by fortress
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To: Dimensio
I think that an all-powerful entity such as God would be able, through some method, to make me absolutley certain of its existence if it so desired -- otherwise it wouldn't be all-powerful.

And this is my point...What do you have to see to be able to be certain that the God, Christ Jesus is who he claimed to be? What do you demand of God for him to show you that he is who he says he is?How many ways should God show you that he is God?

You have a written text that no part of has been shown to be false, ONLY true.
You have physical evidences of papyrus that are dated to the exact time of Jesus disciples, that some say are a literal dictation of Jesus own words as he said them. (manuscript)
There is scientific evidence that if science would just read the bible they would discover what took them eons to discover, The world is spherical. Currents of the sea. The time/sace dimension. The stars can not be numbered. etc...

There is a written text of the future from the past that can be confirmed by other sources outside the bible to confirm events have happened.

There is more copies of the Christian bible than any other book in history. Voltaire is probably spinning in his grave right now.

There is an obvious supernatural, intergrated message that could no way possibly be contrived.(Genesis 5)

But more than any of this there is a God that loves you so much he sent his son to DIE for you and his son defeated Death, arose, and lives as I type this. The only man made thing in heaven are his scars and I hope you see them fully accepting the knowledge that God gives you.

Do not deny your heart's witness.

22 posted on 07/14/2002 1:40:35 PM PDT by sirchtruth
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To: sirchtruth
What do you have to see to be able to be certain that the God, Christ Jesus is who he claimed to be? What do you demand of God for him to show you that he is who he says he is?How many ways should God show you that he is God?

I don't know, but you're assuming your conclusion in asserting that the God who exists is the God you believe exists.

You have a written text that no part of has been shown to be false, ONLY true.

Except for the internal inconsistencies and various elements of Egyptian history that don't seem to correspond with the allegations found in the Bible.

There is scientific evidence that if science would just read the bible they would discover what took them eons to discover, The world is spherical. Currents of the sea. The time/sace dimension. The stars can not be numbered. etc...

Yes, I'm well aware of many Christians using after-the-fact interpretation to "prove" that the Bible predicted what the scientific method has discovered. I've found such interpretations lacking, especially considering that no one bothered to posit the worldviews before science came up with them. I could point to a few discoveries regarding the nature of the universe that were "confirmed" in ancient Hindu texts.

There is more copies of the Christian bible than any other book in history.

This lends no credence to the accuracy of the book.

But more than any of this there is a God that loves you so much he sent his son to DIE for you and his son defeated Death, arose, and lives as I type this. The only man made thing in heaven are his scars and I hope you see them fully accepting the knowledge that God gives you.

Unsupported assertion. You are competing with the claims of every other religion, why should I give your claims more credence than any others?
23 posted on 07/14/2002 4:57:06 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
Except for the internal inconsistencies and various elements of Egyptian history that don't seem to correspond with the allegations found in the Bible.

Why do you assume that the Egyptians history is more valid than the Hebrew?
What standard are you using to make your conclusion?
And are you applying the same test to both equally to make your conclusion? (I doubt it!)

Unsupported assertion. You are competing with the claims of every other religion, why should I give your claims more credence than any others?

Did you not read what I previously wrote to you? Go find another HOLY book from any other religion that you can see evidence TODAY of it's claims, futhermore your denial of the evidence is quite telling about the way you view things. You will not find another holy book on this earth that has the creedance of the Christian bible, and to be certain, if you understand the intergrated message there is a design which would astound you if you took the time to investigate that I am sure no other religious holy book could come close to it's validity of claims. The design is just futher evidence of the holy bibles authenitic nature. Being a person with the intellegence you seem to possess I would think you would be all over this. If you took out all the religious aspects of the bible and just looked at the astounding facts of it's design I guarentee you, nothing can compare or is equally valid as a religious writing. I do not mean to speak pompassly about this, it is just some of the discoveries that in no way could have been contrived and that is why I speak so directly about the holy bibles design...I am not talking about conjecture, I am talking about things you can verify immediately that are simply astounding.

Do not get me wrong I do understand your points and do not want to dismiss them. Let us make no mistake about this, to come to the God of Christiany you have to have faith, but that does not mean there are not evidences above all other holy writings.

I don't know, but you're assuming your conclusion in asserting that the God who exists is the God you believe exists.

You don't know? Or you don't want to know? How can I be assuming anything, is there any other holy book where history records a man claiming to be God doing the same stuff that Jesus did with witnesses written testimony to verify the claims? No!

I find it quite interesting how you think I am assuming anything.

24 posted on 07/14/2002 5:57:21 PM PDT by sirchtruth
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To: Dimensio; sirchtruth
 

God Doesn't Give Autographs

Gregory Koukl

 

What does it mean when Christians say the Bible is inspired?

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God doesn't give autographs. What I mean by that is that God doesn't allow us, or apparently hasn't in His sovereignty, to keep the autographs of the writings of the Bible. I am tempted to say the original autographs, but the autograph is an original so that would be like saying the original original. In other words, those things that the Apostles actually penned, which copies were made of to disperse around the Mediterranean region and then be copied and recopied, etc.--Greek copies of which we have some 5,366 plus now, and in addition, the Aramaic and Coptic and Latin Vulgate. We have lots of different copies to make comparisons to see if what we have now is accurate.

That's actually a separate question, by the way. The question of lower criticism, or textual criticism is, have the documents been passed on in an accurate fashion? We have a transcript on that issue called "Is the New Testament Text Reliable?"

But the question can be raised, why didn't God allow us to have the autographs, the originals? I guess I need to back up here a moment and talk about inspiration because this whole question that I want to approach here is grounded in the idea of inspiration. It's really important that you understand precisely what we mean when we say that God inspired the Scripture. Let's just take the claim at face value right now. I won't defend the notion; that's a different issue. What it means is that God worked in a supernatural way such that those who were actually doing the writing wrote down precisely what God wanted them to write. He was moving through a human individual.

It was not automatic writing. It wasn't like Paul was in a trance writing away with his eyes glued opened and someone asked, "What are you writing?" And he said, "I don't know, it's Greek to me." That isn't what happened. He was writing like you would a letter. You can read letters from different writers and they have their own personality in the letter. They may have used research like Luke did, interviewed other people, compiled information. They might have even borrowed from secular sources. That seems to have happened in the book of Proverbs.

The point is, when we say it's inspired we mean that whatever the words were that were written down, these were the precise words that God wanted to have written down. God worked powerfully through those people such that their words were God's words and God's words were their words. That's why we call the Scripture the Word of God, even though they may be the words of Peter or Paul or John or the Prophets. They are still the word of God because God was working in a concursive way. He was writing together with them, in a sense. We call this operation inspiration.

What we mean by this, for example in the case of the New Testament, is that these are the particular words in the Greek language that most precisely reflect the meanings that God wanted to convey. Notice I used two terms there: words and meanings. In others words, the very words are the out-breathing of God. Technically they are not inspired; they are expired. I don't mean they are dead. They are theopneustus , "the breathing of God." "God-breathed" is what that means, literally. So now we have the words flowing from the pens of Peter and Paul and Moses and the Prophets that are the particular words that God chose to express His thoughts to us, but we don't have in our possession the inspired original words. No problem. That's actually a good thing.

Think for just a moment what a word is. Let's take the word table . The meaning signified by the word table or by the sound table is not the letters on the page or the sound itself. The meaning is something other than that. When we utter the word table, what we mean is, "that thing out there with four legs and a flat top." We can even point to it and say That, right there. So the sound or the written word signifies a particular object and this signify relation, this pointing to business that is caught up between the word we utter and the thing that we are pointing at, this is what we call meaning.

Words convey meaning and God chose very specific words. He inspired them in order to convey particular meanings. The word points to something out there in the world. In other words, sometimes the meaning of the word is a physical object like table. Other times it is not physical--love, for example. The point that I'm making is that we can have two tangible things--a sound or a written word--on a page that points to another tangible thing--the table for example--but that pointing to is not something tangible. The meaning is not physical.

 

Now stay with me for a moment, because this is all going to cash out in a very important way. First of all, think of this. It's not just the meanings of the Bible that are inspired. When I gave you our definition of inspiration which seems to be the biblical teaching on the issue, we're not talking about the meanings that are inspired. It's the words themselves--the Greek words. 2 Timothy 3:16 says "all graphe is inspired", all Scripture. What are the graphe ? The writings. All the writings are inspired.

We've been talking about the fact that there's a big difference between the word and the meaning. For example, the word could change. You might say table in English, or mesa in Spanish or tdoe in Thai--but it's still table. The word changes but the meaning is the same. The meaning is fixed. The words can change, but the meaning stays the same. Meanings are static and words can change to identify the meanings.

This difference identifies the distinction between what is called a type and a token. The meaning of the word is the type. It's the thing itself. The token is the t-a-b-l-e that signifies the meaning. The type doesn't change. The meaning or the type is a universal. It can be in more than one place at one time. The same meaning of table can be in mesa or tdoe and table at the same time. The different tokens have the same meaning but it takes different forms. The words are the particulars, the tokens, the examples, in a sense.

So, the simple rule is there is one type, many tokens. The type is not tangible, the tokens are. Meanings give the words meanings.

If you write table on the board three times, how many words are on the board? Well, it's not entirely clear how many there are. There are three words, and there is one word, meaning that there are three tokens--the token table three times, but only one type. One meaning is represented there, but there are three different tokens of that meaning on the board.

divider

God has chosen a particular set of tokens in words recorded in the Scriptures that can be communicated equally to everyone. Therefore everybody has the same shot at the truth.

divider

How does all this relate to the issue of Scripture and the original documents? There's a couple of conclusions we can draw. First is that the only way we can really communicate meaning is by using some kind of token of it--in this case, words. It can be a spoken word or a written word or sign language or some kind of token which communicates meaning. This is why it is so critical that it is not the meanings only that are inspired in Scripture but the tokens themselves, the writings, the words. If you lose the tokens, if you can't count on the tokens, then we don't have access to the meanings either. Another way of putting it is, how can you get inspired meanings without inspired words? Yet there are some people who hold that it is not the words that are inspired. The words can be fallible, but it's the meanings that are the things that really count. But how do you get one without the other? You've got to have some fixed point from which to depart. You've got to have the words--the tokens--which are a point of public access to the meanings. All of us can see the same word there. In this case, the fixed point is the words in the original manuscripts in the Greek, and God has given those things as a fixed point, particular tokens so that we can work with those tokens to get at the meaning. That's what we do when we do biblical interpretation.

Another advantage is that meanings themselves aren't reproducible. Only tokens are reproducible. So it makes sense that we have a Bible that is given to us in tokens. That is, written words which allow us to reproduce the tokens so that the meaning carried with the tokens can be transferred as well. Some people ask, Why doesn't God just speak to me? Why doesn't He just show himself to me? In a way He has. He has spoken. But to avoid showing Himself to every single person in some kind of special and unique fashion that may be confusing or misleading, God has chosen a particular set of tokens in words recorded in the Scriptures that can be communicated equally to everyone. Therefore everybody has the same shot at the truth. They have this shot through a fixed medium of the particular words that God has chosen. You can see how helpful this makes things, can't you? It deals decisively with the problem of each person having to interpret his own individual subjective revelation that is not tied to something objective like a text--words.

Think for a moment if you were the owner of a company and you wanted all your employees to be very, very clear on a set of principles that you had for running the company. You wouldn't simply emote your desires and hope that all of your employees picked up your vibes. You'd want each employee to understand you so you would articulate your thoughts as precisely as possible through the tokens of words and expect each employee to read the same words in order to get your meaning clear. Right? That's exactly what God has done.

There's another tremendous advantage to this, by the way. If God were to give us such a memo, such a revelation, it would be a very valuable revelation, right? How do you protect such a revelation? God writes through someone His divine word on a piece of paper. How do you protect that? How do you guard against its destruction. If it's only one copy and it was destroyed, bang and it's gone. When it gets destroyed, we are back in the dark again.

Or even more importantly, how do you guard against it being changed or tampered with or corrupted by someone? It's one thing not to have any record at all and then everyone's in the dark. It's another thing altogether to have a spurious record, a faulty record giving commands from God that are not from God at all. That's worse.

Well, the way God handled that is to solve both problems by allowing the original to be destroyed. How does that solve the problem? He made sure there were thousands and then millions of copies. So many copies that they could not all be destroyed.

That's why I don't get it when some claim that the early church took out all the references from the Bible about reincarnation. Some claim that the Council of Nicea took out all the references to reincarnation, that it was originally in the Bible. First of all, how would anybody know that if it was taken a millennium and a half ago? How would you even know that it used to be there and now it's not there any more? Would you find eraser marks or something?

Then there's another problem. How is the church going to gather up the thousands of manuscripts that are being circulated all over the Mediterranean--actually there were tens of thousands; only thousands have survived--and expunge every reference in the Bible to reincarnation? Well, they can't do it when there are thousands of copies, but if there was only one they could. They could take it out and they could rewrite it. They could pretend that what they changed was really the original. That is, I think, one of the reasons God has allowed such a thing. If you had only the original, that could be done. But when you have thousands of copies it can't be done.

The Scriptures become dispersed abroad to all peoples in an objective form so that everyone gets the same thing in a way that protects the document from ever being forged or falsified. That can be done because even the original represents meaning through words as tokens and the tokens can be copied. They can be reproduced such that the copy of the token is the same as the original token. Just like the three words table on the board. They are the same as each other. So if we have a copy using the exact same tokens as the autograph, we essentially have the autograph. The same tokens convey the same meanings that are behind them.

In one sense, the original tokens are gone, the autograph is gone. But if we demonstrate that our present copies are accurate copies then it's fair to say that in regards to the tokens we have millions of originals all over the world. By golly, that's a pretty good system.


25 posted on 07/14/2002 6:22:19 PM PDT by Khepera
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To: Khepera
This is why it is so critical that it is not the meanings only that are inspired in Scripture but the tokens themselves, the writings, the words. If you lose the tokens, if you can't count on the tokens, then we don't have access to the meanings either.

"The messiah will not only interpret the meanings of the words he will interpret the spaces between the letters." I believe it was "nine" letters that might have been miss-copied comparing the copies from the DeadSea scrolls.

There is papyrus (Magdelen Papyri, I beleive) that scholars have concluded (written on both sides) that it was a piece of Matthew's original notebook with the original dictation of Jesus own words from the "Sermon On The Mount" and others.

Let's not forget that in those time there were no Xerox copiers and everything had to be written down. Matthew, the tax collector (customs official ;-)) probably had a short hand way of writting everything down and was probably an expert at it. (for more on this go to Khouse.org)Chuck Missler has some astounding facts that leave me wondering if God really wants to hide anything from us.

26 posted on 07/14/2002 6:58:55 PM PDT by sirchtruth
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To: razorback-bert; fortress
Its all about power. It all about egos and the perversion of American justice.

I suppose it would be alright with the ACLU if some drug pushers were trying to draw in new customers on campus.

Anyway, atheists should not have an advantage to push their non-belief in the courts.

27 posted on 07/14/2002 7:01:11 PM PDT by oyez
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To: oyez
Power of the individual against the rest of society and against the established traditions.It becomes nothing but extortion.
They don't realize that when God is taken out of society, man will wind up with a suppressive human authority, which is not accountable to any authority but its own and personal freedoms are the first to go as it was in the old Soviet Union and present day China and Cuba. Then they have lost the freedom to do what they are doing now.

When will they ever learn

28 posted on 07/14/2002 7:40:21 PM PDT by fortress
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To: fortress
This is ridiculous. So the kid was disappointed. So what? Why should someone have to pay for that? When you make choices in life, they're going to cause you to be included in some aspects of life, and excluded from others.

And, why should anyone get paid for this? So the ACLU decided to do this pro bono? Their decision, their choice. Why should they get awarded anything?
29 posted on 07/15/2002 7:57:02 PM PDT by RonF
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To: RonF
I wish the judges would find this ridiculous and charge these people with bringing up a frivolous lawsuit.
30 posted on 07/15/2002 9:00:44 PM PDT by fortress
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