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Israel readying anti-sniper system
The Times of India ^ | July 20 2002 | PTI

Posted on 07/20/2002 4:10:03 PM PDT by knighthawk

WASHINGTON: Israeli marksmen and counter-terror squads deployed along the Palestinian areas of the West Bank are field-testing a new anti-sniper system designed for the early detection of enemy snipers, media reports said.

The anti-sniper system, Believer is completing the developmental testing under actual urban warfare conditions and awaits approval for the full rate production, Defence News Weekly quoted Israeli officials as saying.

The system that costs around 2 million dollars per copy, can detect the enemy sniper within one-third of a second tracing the bullet path and it either return fire automatically or reveal the exact sniper location to the tactical field commanders.


TOPICS: Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antisniper; banglist; israel; miltech
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1 posted on 07/20/2002 4:10:03 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: dennisw; TopQuark; Alouette; OKCSubmariner; veronica; weikel; EU=4th Reich; BrooklynGOP; ...
Israeli marksmen and counter-terror squads deployed along the Palestinian areas of the West Bank are field-testing a new anti-sniper system designed for the early detection of enemy snipers, media reports said.

Middle East list

If people want on or off this list, please let me know.

2 posted on 07/20/2002 4:10:43 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: knighthawk
If this works, it would be very impressive.
3 posted on 07/20/2002 4:12:44 PM PDT by ChadGore
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: knighthawk
Good. Send the Jew killers back to the hell that birthed them.
5 posted on 07/20/2002 4:15:14 PM PDT by dennisw
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To: knighthawk
Saw something like this on the Discovery channel last year. The system is so fast, it can trace the path of each bullet leaving the muzzle of a machine gun as they're coming out. Shows you real-time exactly where the shooter is. Very impressive.
6 posted on 07/20/2002 4:18:54 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker
Radar?

What frequency would it take to resolve a bullet?

7 posted on 07/20/2002 4:25:37 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion
Sound based. It would triangulate on the initial bang. It also traced out the flight path of the bullet in flight, real-time. Don't ask me how it was able to do that! Snipers, assassins, etc., are going to have much shorter combat life expectancies in the future, that's for sure.
8 posted on 07/20/2002 4:30:51 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: knighthawk
Very cool bump!
9 posted on 07/20/2002 4:32:16 PM PDT by facedown
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: knighthawk
The system I'd like to see tied to this detection system is a scaled-down Phalanx gatling gun. This is one of those Navy weapons that'll throw a jillion rounds a minute at a target.

Terrorist = pink mist
11 posted on 07/20/2002 4:38:47 PM PDT by AngrySpud
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To: knighthawk
I am of the belief that anytime there is an ease up on the terrorists by the Israelis, a demonstration in favor of terror ensues. Option #1 should be, when the gathering occurs, there should be nothing left on that spot but a deep hole in the ground...and maybe bits of shredded green headbands.
12 posted on 07/20/2002 4:39:17 PM PDT by Nix 2
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To: knighthawk
A system this in went into operation in Redwood City, CA, here in Silicon Valley, in 1996. The problem was not so much gangs and drive-by shootings as all the [accurate but "racist" description deleted]'s shooting their guns on New Year's Eve. I don't live close enough to Redwood City to know how it has worked out.

Locator System Targets Shooters

13 posted on 07/20/2002 4:50:31 PM PDT by jiggyboy
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To: LibWhacker
So what if it is a silenced sniper rifle?
14 posted on 07/20/2002 5:04:18 PM PDT by Aaron_A
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To: Aaron_A
The show I saw didn't mention silencers, but you'd think that would be one way to go to beat it. But remember, even silenced weapons make noise and this system is so sensitive it can (apparently) pick up the sounds the individual bullets make in flight to trace their paths.
15 posted on 07/20/2002 5:12:03 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker
...individual bullets make in flight to trace their paths

Now that is something.

16 posted on 07/20/2002 5:19:19 PM PDT by Aaron_A
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To: Lurker
Wow..
17 posted on 07/20/2002 5:27:35 PM PDT by Jhoffa_
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To: LibWhacker
I wonder what the range on something like this would be and how other airborne objects (rain, bugs.. whatever) would affect it.
18 posted on 07/20/2002 5:28:49 PM PDT by Jhoffa_
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PS: Also, someone with engineering skill might be able to exploit this thing to make it fire on crowds or assisinate the very person or people it was intended to protect using flying objects, noisemakers or what have you.

(Ever see Robocop? Remember the boardroom scene at the beginning?)

19 posted on 07/20/2002 5:34:01 PM PDT by Jhoffa_
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To: LibWhacker
Sound based. It would triangulate on the initial bang. It also traced out the flight path of the bullet in flight, real-time.
Rifle bullets are supersonic, and consequently give off a small sonic boom. Audible, so my long-ago military training class instructor noted, as a snap as it passes by. It follows that data from a sufficent microphone array beside/behind (and, obviously, preferably also in front of) the target could be compared to infer the track of the bullet. The further apart the microphones roughly along the bullet's path, the greater the potential resolution capability--but you would need to know the geometry of the microphone array, if it wasn't a constant. So you could deploy microphones by mortar shell if you needed them widely spaced, but that would leave you with operational problems figuring out where the mikes actually fell. That might be solvable by deliberately firing a known shot or two over the array, perhaps . . . but if you had a squad of troops and each one had a mike with some kind of position measurement transponder . . . After that, it would be a matter of operating a Kalman filter, perhaps, to infer the flight paths of incoming rifle shots. Computer processing power would be, at this late date, the least of the problems, given that GPS boxes are under $1000 and we're talking about somewhat similar analysis.

20 posted on 07/20/2002 5:42:14 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: LibWhacker
"Sound based. It would triangulate on the initial bang. "

It seems like it would be easy to fool the system with decoy gunshots.

21 posted on 07/20/2002 5:44:51 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: Jhoffa_
As long as your microphones can pick up the sound, you can triangulate. The article says accuracy is within a third of a second . . . That translates to less than an inch at 1000 yards.

Very cool that the Israelis have gotten it out of the laboratory and field ready. But two million dollars a copy? . . . Holy cow! Must be huge . . . truck mounted or something.

22 posted on 07/20/2002 5:51:51 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: Aaron_A; LibWhacker
So what if it is a silenced sniper rifle?

Suppressed ("silenced") rifles make very little noise at the barrel, but if the bullet is faster than the speed of sound, it still makes a noise (and according to this article, that is what is tracked).

Having a suppressor wouldn't help, unless terrorists were using subsonic ammunition. But subsonic rounds are really, really wimpy, and won't penetrate armor.

So the system would work very well against enemy snipers.

24 posted on 07/20/2002 5:56:28 PM PDT by xm177e2
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To: knighthawk
Whackafat.com reports the simultaneous development of a system that would fire a 155mm howitzer at Yassir Arafat's head at the exact moment he receives a call from Christiane Amanpour.

"You must be accurately when you are speaking to General Yas--"

BOOOM

[The relevant technology was in its early stages when Bolt, Beranek and Newman conducted tests in Dealey Plaza for the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Had the system been in place November 22, 1963, it could have shot E. Howard Hunt and Woody Harrelson's father. Or not.]

25 posted on 07/20/2002 5:58:53 PM PDT by PhilDragoo
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To: Rebelbase
Yep. Nothing's foolproof. There must be a way to defeat it. But I wouldn't want to be part of the group of Stupidstinians that tries to do it in combat. :-(

Wish I could find a reference to the show on discovery.com. They seem to have taken it down. I'm sure someone else will remember the show. It was amazing . . . Every bullet's path traced out in a different color as the machine gun was being fired. My impression was that soldiers in the field would someday be able to wear these things on their helmets, kind of a heads-up display showing where enemy fire was coming from.

26 posted on 07/20/2002 6:02:09 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal
This is an interesting one. Is it real? Comments? Links?

If something like this could be field deployed, it seems like it would be great for bivouac perimeter security, and we would have heard more about it.

27 posted on 07/20/2002 6:04:48 PM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: knighthawk
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

Friday, June 28, 2002 Contact:

Anti-sniper radar breakthrough funded according to Skeen

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Laguna Industries will assemble a very high technology radar demonstration for research on how to counter the terrible threat from snipers targeting our soldiers. The House of Representatives provided the money in the 2003 Military Appropriation Bill passed on June 27.

The Rapid Target Acquisition and Tracking System (RTATS) will be a laser radar that can rapidly deploy on a High Mobility Multipurpose Vehicles (HMMV). The radar will immediately pinpoint the exact location of an enemy rifleman in a building or in camouflaged vegetation. The HMMV has the ability to transport the RTATS over rough terrain in open country. It can then maneuver in the confined quarters of a city. This will mean close coverage of our troops as they move into the extremely hazardous environment of street fighting.

“Fighting in cities is the worst nightmare of an infantryman. I believe that the RTATS will be one of the most important technical breakthroughs we can provide for our soldiers and Marines,” according to Congressman Skeen.

The RTATS was developed by Trex Enterprises of San Diego and will be integrated by Laguna Industries on to the HMMV.

According to Trex company president Anne Pol, “Trex has been impressed with the maturity and depth of experience at the Laguna Industries facility. The Laguna experience with testing other sophisticated electronics in the field environment provides confidence that the integrated RTATS system will be useful to U.S. troops almost immediately.”

After initial testing on the Laguna Reservation the system will undergo military testing at the White Sands Missile Range.

The development of RTATS will provide several business opportunities to Laguna. Potential customers for the system include law enforcement agencies, like the border patrol, and tracking instrumentation for test ranges.

28 posted on 07/20/2002 6:08:47 PM PDT by PhilDragoo
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To: knighthawk

29 posted on 07/20/2002 6:10:11 PM PDT by klpt
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion
Interesting. Thanks. Is it possible that microphone technology has advanced to the point that the array is no longer needed; i.e., is it possible for a microphone to pick up the faint whistling and buzzing a bullet makes in flight, even from a great distance? And even during the racket of combat?
30 posted on 07/20/2002 6:10:55 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: PhilDragoo
Nice find. So there's a competing technology, apart from sound . . . The battlefield of the future is going to be an even more unpleasant place for America's enemies than it already is. This makes me happy :-)
31 posted on 07/20/2002 6:21:12 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: GWELO

"Where DOES he get those wonderful toys"
32 posted on 07/20/2002 6:33:59 PM PDT by Optimist
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To: LibWhacker
Copy function disabled at web page which announces:

CILAS SLD400 uses an optical head (diode laser with video or thermal camera) detects sniper's optics. July 1998 (issue 150) of Revue Aerospatiale. French system.

Have no doubt Sandia Labs in Albuquerque and Los Alamos National Labs in Los Alamos are on top of anti-sniper technology.

The airborne laser is being developed as part of the anti-ballistic missile defence here. Some of these people go into bubbles in other parts of the world just to chat.

The phrase, "Go ahead; make my day," takes on even greater irony.

33 posted on 07/20/2002 6:50:51 PM PDT by PhilDragoo
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To: PhilDragoo
July/August 1998 issue of Revue Aerospatiale

Lasers: Hard-Hitting Watchdogs

The best way to dissuade snipers is to deprive them of their impunity by ensuring they know that their exact location has been pinpointed. CILAS demonstrated this at Eurosatory with its directed-optics laser detector- the first production unit intended ultimately for delivery to the French army. This ground-breaking technology can be expected to bring other developments in its wake.

Quietly, free from media hype, things have suddenly changed since a prototype of the SLD400 was received by the French armed forces. Behind this mundane designation lurks a device capable of detecting, locating and indentifying the optics with which snipers are equipped.

The scope of application of the SLD400 is much wider and can include the protection of VIPs and pinpointing sharpshooters or the binoculars of terrorists preparing criminal acts.

The technology enables the building of databases of specific optical device signatures to better assess threat levels.

34 posted on 07/20/2002 7:03:36 PM PDT by PhilDragoo
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To: PhilDragoo
SLD 400

The SLD 400 is designed to detect and locate any kind of optical or optronic hostile sight on the battlefield or sensitive zones.

APPLICATIONS

Fitted on a tripod or an observation turret, the SLD achieves the following missions:

stand-by detection of pointed optics, often associated with an immediate threat,

active scanning and monitoring of specific areas,

defeating and deterring of snipers.

The SLD 400 drastically improves the permanent control of the battlefield. For the Armed Forces the SLD 400 detects MBT and AFV sights. The SLD 400 also brings a significant shooting accuracy improvement during the operation carried out by the Special units. Increased V.I.P.'s protection : detection and neutralisation of an aggressor equipped with a high accuracy telescope is the permanent commitment of the Security Services.

The SLD 400 consists of: an optical head with a laser transmitter and a high-tech receiver; an electronic assembly including the command and control unit as well as the video monitor of the observed zone; and a power supply with rechargeable or disposable batteries. The SLD 400 can be coupled with other detectors and surveillance system (Infrared, Thermal Imaging Camera, acoustic detector, etc.).

35 posted on 07/20/2002 7:06:40 PM PDT by PhilDragoo
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To: *miltech
.
36 posted on 07/20/2002 7:23:48 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: LibWhacker; Nix 2
If it works they can sell these to every government in the world (except the Arabs who don't trade with Israel). Jaque Chirac, PM of France, almost needed one of these last week.

Hi Nix 2, good to see you around.

37 posted on 07/20/2002 7:28:18 PM PDT by monkeyshine
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: LibWhacker
Nice find. So there's a competing technology, apart from sound . . . The battlefield of the future is going to be an even more unpleasant place for America's enemies than it already is. This makes me happy :-)

Though, eventually, the technology will end up in the wrong hands. Still, but that time, we ought to have something better.

39 posted on 07/20/2002 7:38:59 PM PDT by meyer
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To: Aaron_A
So what if it is a silenced sniper rifle?

Then you will have a vastly less-effective sniper. Subsonic rounds are required for sound-suppressed fire and the benefit of a rifle is speeding a large bullet up to high (supersonic) velocitities that are capable of penetrating body armor, lightly armored vehicles, and maintaining a flat trajectory to a distant target.

40 posted on 07/20/2002 7:39:24 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: FreedomPoster

Been in development for a few years . First I saw of the (not this one specificly) same sort of system was Bosnia.......

Stay Safe

41 posted on 07/20/2002 7:42:19 PM PDT by Squantos
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To: FreedomPoster; Myrddin; Poohbah; Squantos; Lazamataz
Well it gets my attention! I have read about anti mortar tech based on radar which would reveal the source location, I don't know if this anti sniper system is strictly sound based, radar, microwave or what.

I would think that for the mid term this type of system would be best for the protection of long term fixed positions where all the local acoustic geometry and anomolies can be debugged thoroughly. That is to say, protecting an Israeli neighborhood or settlement from the enemy, or high value fixed targets such as 1600 PA Ave etc.

I don't think this will be the type of system which would just be rolled up to a new site and prove effective right away, but I could be wrong.

42 posted on 07/20/2002 10:54:52 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: FreedomPoster
I should have read 28 first!
43 posted on 07/20/2002 10:56:29 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Squantos
Am I correct that this sytem pings laser radar (what ever that is) in the direction of suspected hostiles and finds shiny optical glass by reflection?

Countermeasures? Cover the lens until the last moment, shoot and scoot? What else to do?

I must assume that if this is getting print today, the USSS has had it for years.

44 posted on 07/20/2002 11:06:41 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
Do you remember the phased array radar that the army deployed in Beirut in 1983? The only thing it didn't pick up was the tank shells and the direct fire rockets!

This sounds impressive! How goes the book?

Regards,

TS

45 posted on 07/20/2002 11:16:34 PM PDT by The Shrew
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To: LibWhacker
"it can trace the path of each bullet leaving the muzzle of a machine gun as they're coming out"


I think I may have seen the same show, did the test it with a mp5 submachine gun and an assault rifle?
46 posted on 07/20/2002 11:22:11 PM PDT by MD_Willington_1976
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To: PhilDragoo
Yawn...

A a Marine I could deliver headshots with nine rounds out of every ten rounds from 600 yards out using only a peephole sight.

If this system works by detecting the optics that snipers use....it wont be picking off any Marine Corps Riflemen anytime soon.

47 posted on 07/20/2002 11:37:20 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: VaBthang4
That's fine if you have 20/20 vision!
48 posted on 07/20/2002 11:41:48 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: VaBthang4
I like the auto-supression feature. Linked to what? A 50 cal on single shot computer controled? Bang-bang-BAM...
49 posted on 07/20/2002 11:44:13 PM PDT by American in Israel
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To: Travis McGee
I was wearing my Government issued BC [Birth Control] glasses.
50 posted on 07/20/2002 11:46:55 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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