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Who Were The Knights Templar? (Sunday History Read)
www.templarhistory.com ^ | undated | Stephen Dafoe and Alan Butler

Posted on 07/21/2002 10:01:31 AM PDT by Hacksaw

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To: topsail
My understanding is that there is a medieval statue in Rosslyn Castle in Scotland which has a standing Knight Templar with his hand on the shoulder of a kneeling [praying?] stone mason. I have no idea if this is symbolic of the passage of enlightenment from the Templars to stone masons [which at the time, of course, also included architects], but it is worthy of speculation.

You are probably aware that the oldest written record of masonry is one of the Ancient Constitutions which goes back to the 1300's, although there is a reference in it to masonic activity prior to the year 1000.

101 posted on 10/13/2003 1:42:28 PM PDT by curmudgeonII
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To: Redleg Duke
"Used to be a Shriner for 25 years,"

Cool. Why did you guys have to drive those tiny cars and motorcycles?
102 posted on 10/13/2003 1:44:05 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: Hacksaw
The betrayal of the Templars is referred to as the "cleaving of the elm" in 1307. It was with the plotting of the "Priory of Sion" that France wanted to rid themselves of the Templars. Many of the Knights escaped to England where they sided with Robert the Bruce in his battles. There are rumors of their headquarters being in Rosythe Scotland where a chapel is believed to contain their remains. THAT is were the Scottish Rite of the Freemasons takes it root.

There is also the building of several chruches and cathedrals that are attributed to the Templars and their mason roots.

Semper Fi

103 posted on 10/13/2003 1:47:01 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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To: Trident/Delta
The "Priory of Sion" was apparently founded in 1956, and thus had nothing to do with the dissolution of the Knights Templar:

http://www.anzwers.org/free/posdebunking/

Theories that the Templars escaped to Scotland and sided with Robert the Bruce are more romance than fact.
104 posted on 10/13/2003 1:50:13 PM PDT by Bohemund
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To: Bohemund
Nice try, I did my masters thesis on the Priory and it has roots back to 1054. There is a great deal of published literature regarding the Priory and its colorful history. I can't help it if it is politicaly incorrect and flies in the face of reality.<p.Semper Fi
105 posted on 10/13/2003 1:57:14 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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To: Bohemund
I just visited your source. This is not what could be considered realistic sourcing. Try doing a little REAL homework and not just using Google.

Semper Amused

106 posted on 10/13/2003 1:59:55 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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To: Hacksaw
The Pope's of those days were highly political leaders.

Phillip Le Bel, King of France at the time, sent an army against the pope. He imprisoned him but was eventually forced to release him. That Pope conveniently died shortly thereafter. The next Pope, Clement, was virtually appointed by Phillip and his chief minister, de Nougerat. They ended up moving the Papacy to France for about 70 years. They set about destroying the Templars, as both a threat to their power grab and as a potential source of funds for their wars. The Templars snuck their treasures out of the country, along with their fleet, just before the axe fell.

I hold with the tales of the Templars taking their wealth and secrets to Scotland and aiding Robert the Bruce. There are also intriguing stories of some of the early bucaneers in the next couple of centuries having uncanny similarities in their traditions to the Templars.

There is an interesting and well documented parallel in eastern history. The Chinese emperor outlawed the Shao Lin (of Kung Fu fame) monks. They went underground and formed secret societies which later became the Triads (tong), who controlled much of the trade and organized crime in China and Chinese communities for the next several centuries, right up to today.

I've really enjoyed the well researched fiction of Katherine Kurtz on the history and fate of the Templars. She has written several stories herself as well as editing a couple of really good short story compliations. Though all are fiction, and some quite fanciful, they offer a great background for getting the feeling and for finding a starting place to research the real history.

107 posted on 10/13/2003 2:01:46 PM PDT by Phsstpok (often wrong, but never in doubt)
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To: Trident/Delta
I just visited your source. This is not what could be considered realistic sourcing. Try doing a little REAL homework and not just using Google.

Well, fine. At least I gave a source. What's yours?

108 posted on 10/13/2003 2:01:51 PM PDT by Bohemund
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To: Bohemund
I can play on google too!!

I will admit that I used the term Priory in an all inclusive mode. But, in all my research, the Prieure was the "slang" used to express the order.

PRIORY OF SION: THE FACTS, THE THEORIES, THE MYSTERY

Introduction

It has been seven years since I wrote my first article on the Priory of Sion/Rennes-les-Chateau mystery. At the time, I was heavily under the influence of the books Holy Blood, Holy Grail and Lionel Fanthorpe's work. Since then, there have been a number of books released, some better, some worse, than these original influences. I have revised some of my theories, challenged some of my own assumptions, learned some new things, and encountered a great deal of contrary data. Now, I am no longer sure that the hypothesis presented at the end of Holy Blood, Holy Grail is the best for explaining the data, nor am I sure that a Priory of Sion with the characteristics ascribed to it (an 800-year uninterrupted history, 9000 members internationally) really exists. I also am not sure that what is presented as "orthodox" with regard to the Sauniere saga can really be trusted. Still, although I have encountered the work of the debunkers, I am sure of two and only two things:

1. the Sauniere saga cannot be explained away simply by a mass-trafficking pyramid scheme and a bad taste in décor.

2. Something called the Order de Sion existed in the Middle Ages up until, at the latest, the 17th century; something called the Prieure du Sion existed from at least 1956 to 1984; whether these two things have any actual relationship to each other, I am still trying to figure out.

109 posted on 10/13/2003 2:05:15 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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To: Allan
Bump
110 posted on 10/13/2003 2:05:17 PM PDT by Allan
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To: drjoe
"Read all about it in Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto [Name of the Rose] Eco. Fascinating!!"

yep. I'm currently reading it for the third time. A little obscure in places, but the detective work regarding the Knights Templar is worth the time it takes.

111 posted on 10/13/2003 2:06:56 PM PDT by redhead (Les Franšais sont des singes de capitulation qui mangent du fromage.)
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To: Bohemund
http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/poseur3.html
112 posted on 10/13/2003 2:10:19 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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To: Trident/Delta
Okay, so your source (what's the URL, by the way?) admits that a "Priory of Sion" probably only existed from 1956 to 1984.

Now that you've admitted that the "Priory of Sion" probably only existed since 1956, what are your sources that something called the "Prieure" had anything to do with the Templars?
113 posted on 10/13/2003 2:11:42 PM PDT by Bohemund
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To: drjoe
Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto [Name of the Rose] Eco

Borodino, however you spell it, his latest, or one of his latest, is great fun. Just reading the intro, where Frederick speaks not only German, but in the old German black letter font, was so funny I had to buy the book.

114 posted on 10/13/2003 2:16:01 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: Bohemund
The many orders of Sion

In 1099, Augustinian canons regular establish the Order of Notre Dame de Sion headquartered in the Abbey of Mt. Sion.

An 1178 papal bull by Pope Alexander claims monasteries in Calabria, the Holy Land, Sicily, and elsewhere. Some of these monks appear to have established themselves in Orleans in 1152. This Order appears to have been absorbed into the Jesuits in either 1617 or 1619, but the main source for this remains, unfortunately, Gerard de Sede's 1988 "Les Impostures".

In 1393, Ferri de Vaudemont establishes a Confraternity of Our Lady of Sion in Nancy (the Lorraine, near Sion-Vaudemont). Its relationship to the earlier Order of Sion is unknown. If and when this order ceased to exist, I am unaware.

There appear to have been two Jacobite organizations in the 18th/19th century that used this name: the Realm of Sion, founded in the 1740s, whose leader at one point was the bishop of Rodez, and which claimed descent from a 16th century order dedicated to Thomas Beckett; and a second organization, The Sovereign Sacred Religious and Military Order of Knights Protectors of the Sacred Sepulchre of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of the Most Holy Temple of Zion, founded in New Zealand in 1848.

Only one Order of Notre Dame de Sion actually appears in the Catholic Encyclopedia, and it is the Congregation of Notre Dame de Sion, founded by Marie-Alphonse Ratisbonne in Paris in 1843. This organization has parochial schools in the United States and France. One of its main goals is to convert Jews to Catholicism.

In the mid-1800s, a Czech author, Prokop Chochosoulek, wrote a work, The Templars of Bohemia. It was a work of "historical fiction". However, he does mention a Priory of Sion being behind the creation of the Templars. His reference seems to indicate they still existed in his own time.

From 1807 to 1817, the Russian mystic and Martinist I.V. Lopukhin edited a Martinist journal called The Messenger of Sion, which dealt with a variety of Jewish and mystical themes.

Although never identifying itself as an order of "Sion", an organization formed by the priestly Brothers Baillard, Eugene Michel Vintras (otherwise known as "Elias the Artist", whose mentor was a Madam Bouche who lived near St. Sulpice and went by "Sister Salome"), and the Abbe Joseph Boullan known as the Church of Carmel tried to create a syncretistic Celtic-Christian pilgrimage center at Sion-Vaudemont in the 1850s. This was written about by Lorraine author Maurice Barres in La Colline Inspiree .

In 1956, an organization called the Priory of Sion registers with the Annemasse bureau of records. Its four officers are Andre Bonhomme, president; Jean Delaval, Vice-President; Pierre Plantard, Secretary-General; Armand Defago, Treasurer. Whether this organization continued to exist after the resignation of Grand Master Pierre Plantard in 1984, no one knows.

Currently headquartered on Saint James, Long Island, is the Grand Perceptory of the Chevaliers of Notre Dame de Sion - their home page is online at this link - it claims its foundation from Marcel Lefebvre and currently says it is under the leadership of Andre Barbeau as an "Exempt Sovereign Military Religious Order". Its mission, it proclaims, is to provide medical psychiatric care to the community [sic] and also to perform interfaith marriages. Its clerical staff, it says, includes the Rev. Paul Boucher and the Rev. Douglas Trees, as well as several Rabbis listed as "Interfaith". The site is vague but would appear to indicate the order was "revitalized" in the 1980s.

Semper Fi

115 posted on 10/13/2003 2:16:24 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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To: Katya
My interest in the Knights Templar, the monastic life, and knighthood has always been more pragmatic social history....ie. Knighthood and service as a rung to the middle class. The monasteries created towns, schools and the need for trained knights guaranteed a boy of modest means the avenue for progress and property. This was entirely a western invention not based on any caste system. I wonder how much of the persecutions were a result of the fear by the papacy/aristocracy of this rise of the individual.

The knights of the holy orders, including the Templars and the Knights Hospitalier, were drawn from the ranks of nobility. Almost exclusively the younger sons of families with too many sons to divy up the family lands for. The only "middle class" members of the Templars (unless you consider these younger sons the "middle class," which is not unreasonable) were the sergeants and servants. This was also true of most of the knights who went on the crusades. They were sent off to carve out lands of their own. The Templars didn't do this as they were forbidden to own anything, turning all their worldly goods over the order. That's where the seed money came from for their wealth.

The social institutions you speak of may certainly have come to be, but they weren't part of the Templar orders history, so far as I know (1118-1312).

Now, what the Templars found in the ruins of Solomon's stables is another story entirely...

Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomini Tuo Da Gloriam

Not To Us O Lord Not To Us But To Your Name Give Glory

Psalm 115, v1 Hebrew Psalter Psalm 113, v13 Greek Psalter.

The Templar oath.

116 posted on 10/13/2003 2:17:47 PM PDT by Phsstpok (often wrong, but never in doubt)
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To: Bohemund
Okay, so your source (what's the URL, by the way?) admits that a "Priory of Sion" probably only existed from 1956 to 1984.

Now that you've admitted that the "Priory of Sion" probably only existed since 1956, what are your sources that something called the "Prieure" had anything to do with the Templars?

If you take the time to look into it you will find that the "Priory" that you allude to from 1956-1984 is based on their "registry" with the French government as a "organization". Your assumption that since they registered in 1956, that it indicates that it was founded then simply flies in the face of reality. If you look at #112 you will find the URL to an associates writings on the subject.

Your reference is some boob who bought internet space and is attempting to discredit a line of historic research. You may not like it. It may fly in the face of certain religious teachings, but, there is a quite an academic following in this research. My thesis (which was for my criminal justice degree by the way), focused on the use of modern investigative techniques in the pursuit of truth in mysteries such as the Priory of Sion. To that end I applie currently accepted investigative technique to the task. I will say that I don't believe in the underlying thesis of the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" book, but, to deny the existance of a chronicaled organization is simply stupid. I have given you more time than I normally suffer to such endeavors, I will not respond to you again.

Semper Fi

117 posted on 10/13/2003 2:25:34 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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To: Trident/Delta
Still no sourcing?

An 1178 papal bull by Pope Alexander claims monasteries in Calabria, the Holy Land, Sicily, and elsewhere. Some of these monks appear to have established themselves in Orleans in 1152. This Order appears to have been absorbed into the Jesuits in either 1617 or 1619, but the main source for this remains, unfortunately, Gerard de Sede's 1988 "Les Impostures".

So an unsourced article says an 1988 work states that some monks of an order that has the word "Sion" "appear" to have moved to Orleans in 1152, and that the order appears" to have been absorbed by the Society of Jesus in the 17th century.

In 1393, Ferri de Vaudemont establishes a Confraternity of Our Lady of Sion in Nancy (the Lorraine, near Sion-Vaudemont). Its relationship to the earlier Order of Sion is unknown. If and when this order ceased to exist, I am unaware.

Your unsourced article then mentions a cofraternity with the word "Sion" in it that was founded in 1393 but admmits no proof of connection to the "Order of Sion."

There appear to have been two Jacobite organizations in the 18th/19th century that used this name: the Realm of Sion, founded in the 1740s, whose leader at one point was the bishop of Rodez, and which claimed descent from a 16th century order dedicated to Thomas Beckett; and a second organization, The Sovereign Sacred Religious and Military Order of Knights Protectors of the Sacred Sepulchre of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of the Most Holy Temple of Zion, founded in New Zealand in 1848.

Again without sources, your article mentions two more organizations with the word "Sion" in their names, one in New Zealand.

Only one Order of Notre Dame de Sion actually appears in the Catholic Encyclopedia, and it is the Congregation of Notre Dame de Sion, founded by Marie-Alphonse Ratisbonne in Paris in 1843. This organization has parochial schools in the United States and France. One of its main goals is to convert Jews to Catholicism.

And another organization with the word "Sion" in it, with no relationship to the "Order of Sion."

In the mid-1800s, a Czech author, Prokop Chochosoulek, wrote a work, The Templars of Bohemia. It was a work of "historical fiction". However, he does mention a Priory of Sion being behind the creation of the Templars. His reference seems to indicate they still existed in his own time.

A 19th century novelist mentions something called the "Priory of Sion," related to the Templars. A few years later, Arthur Conan Doyle mentions a dectective named Sherlock Holmes, who therefore really existed.

From 1807 to 1817, the Russian mystic and Martinist I.V. Lopukhin edited a Martinist journal called The Messenger of Sion, which dealt with a variety of Jewish and mystical themes.

Another thing with "Sion" in its name.

Although never identifying itself as an order of "Sion", an organization formed by the priestly Brothers Baillard, Eugene Michel Vintras (otherwise known as "Elias the Artist", whose mentor was a Madam Bouche who lived near St. Sulpice and went by "Sister Salome"), and the Abbe Joseph Boullan known as the Church of Carmel tried to create a syncretistic Celtic-Christian pilgrimage center at Sion-Vaudemont in the 1850s. This was written about by Lorraine author Maurice Barres in La Colline Inspiree.

Well, the town has "Sion" in its name, so it must be related to the Templars. Sigh.

In 1956, an organization called the Priory of Sion registers with the Annemasse bureau of records. Its four officers are Andre Bonhomme, president; Jean Delaval, Vice-President; Pierre Plantard, Secretary-General; Armand Defago, Treasurer. Whether this organization continued to exist after the resignation of Grand Master Pierre Plantard in 1984, no one knows.

We've been over this...

Currently headquartered on Saint James, Long Island, is the Grand Perceptory of the Chevaliers of Notre Dame de Sion - their home page is online at this link - it claims its foundation from Marcel Lefebvre and currently says it is under the leadership of Andre Barbeau as an "Exempt Sovereign Military Religious Order". Its mission, it proclaims, is to provide medical psychiatric care to the community [sic] and also to perform interfaith marriages. Its clerical staff, it says, includes the Rev. Paul Boucher and the Rev. Douglas Trees, as well as several Rabbis listed as "Interfaith". The site is vague but would appear to indicate the order was "revitalized" in the 1980s.

And its relationship to the "Order of Sion," "Priory of Sion," Sion-Vaudemont or the Templpars? Other than the name?

Maybe "Sion" is just the way the French write "Zion," seat of King David, and that's why it reappears in religious history? Nah. It must be a huge conspiracy.

Come on. You wrote your master's thesis on this stuff, right? You can do better than this.

118 posted on 10/13/2003 2:43:02 PM PDT by Bohemund
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To: Bohemund
Idiot...Look at post #112. It was posted BEFORE you asked for a source. I guess you can't read either.

Semper Pissed

119 posted on 10/13/2003 2:49:11 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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To: Trident/Delta
Come on. You wrote your master's thesis on this stuff, right? You can do better than this. Shame on Georgetown, they gave me my degree..

Semper Gone

120 posted on 10/13/2003 2:51:03 PM PDT by Trident/Delta (Colt 1911 .45ACP .... The "original" point and click device.....)
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