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House Panel OKs Tougher Gun Checks
Associated Press ^ | Tue, Jul. 23, 2002 | NEDRA PICKLER

Posted on 07/23/2002 2:21:33 PM PDT by USA21

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1 posted on 07/23/2002 2:21:33 PM PDT by USA21
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To: USA21
I can't believe I am saying this, but it sounds reasonable (in theory) to me. It is dangerous for loonies to be going around with weapons. We better keep an eye on this though because the potential for what constitutes "mentally ill" could be abused and expanded to "fanatical right-wingers" depending upon who is in the WH.
2 posted on 07/23/2002 2:26:12 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: USA21
Online Lead

will put the power of the lead program into all 331 ATF offices throughout the United States," former ATF director John Magaw said. "Investigators will have immediate and direct access to the statistics and information provided by that database.

Trace information will now be available nationwide within 24 hours of the completed trace.

"Online Lead

will greatly enhance law enforcement's ability to detect, imprison, and deter criminals-- the criminals behind the criminal who are illegally supplying guns to our communities," said treasury secretary Lawrence Summers.

The system presently contains more than 1 million crime-gun traces.

"We have computerized our firearms traces all the way back to 1989," said ATF special agent Dennis Murphy, who is with the crime-gun analysis branch. Murphy serves as the project's lead coordinator.

"Let's say we wanted to know what firearms were traced in 1999 on Minnesota Avenue, in Washington, D.C. If you're a local police officer and part of your beat in Washington, D.C. is Minnesota Avenue," Murphy said, "it would be helpful for you to know how many crime guns have been recovered this year on that stretch of road."

Murphy sets up an example, in which a series of different firearms are traced from records of guns recovered on Minnesota Avenue.

The first gun in Murphy's fictional example shows where the gun was purchased, information on Joe Doe, the original purchaser, where the gun was recovered, and the fact that officer Dave Smith requested the trace. It also includes the details on the weapon itself.

Many of the recovered guns are stored in a firearms library in Washington, D.C. The vault contains conventional guns and rifles, as well as rare firearms such as a self-contained, silenced machine gun.

"These are just a few of the firearms that we have in our firearms library. Many of these are in the firearms trace database," said special agent Tracey Hite. "They've been recovered in crimes and ATF agents have submitted these for our firearms library. They help us determine the function and capability of firearms that are involved in ongoing cases."

Online Lead can tell you just about anything you want to know about most of these guns.

When a gun is recovered, instant access to more than a million records is invaluable to law enforcement. Online Lead can do better than any human being can by identifying multiple gun sale trends, and pinpointing gun trafficking.


What your address

3 posted on 07/23/2002 2:30:28 PM PDT by USA21
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>>The NRA supports the bill with reservations.<<

The NRA wants a kinder, gentler type of gun control?
Give 'em a few more years and the database will be up to speed. Then the fun begins.

4 posted on 07/23/2002 2:31:13 PM PDT by Tourist Guy
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To: rwfromkansas
Can the Government do any thing that you don't like?
5 posted on 07/23/2002 2:31:54 PM PDT by USA21
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To: rwfromkansas
AFT will said anyone have mental illness ?
6 posted on 07/23/2002 2:34:18 PM PDT by USA21
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To: rwfromkansas
We better keep an eye on this though because the potential for what constitutes "mentally ill" could be abused and expanded to "fanatical right-wingers"

That's when we say to the politicos: Go ahead, make my day.

7 posted on 07/23/2002 2:35:47 PM PDT by lideric
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To: USA21; rwfromkansas

Peter Troy's history of mental illness made it illegal for him to own the gun that police say he used to spray bullets at a Long Island church, killing the priest and a worshipper.

"The entire lynchpin of our system to keep guns out of the wrong hands is the records in the background check system, and those records are in deplorable shape," said Jim Kessler, policy and research director of Americans for Gun Safety. "This will make a difference."

Perhaps you can tell that to a totally innocent 20-year-old Joseph Schultz who was shot point blank in the face by FBI-agent Christopher Braga who went Scott-free. Ask Joseph Schultz which he fears morel; some lunatic with a gun or an FBI agent with a gun? He may reply, "what's the difference?"

8 posted on 07/23/2002 2:37:56 PM PDT by Zon
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To: rwfromkansas; *bang_list
It is dangerous for loonies to be going around with weapons.

Then keep the loonies locked up. It is unreasonable to think that mere laws will keep guns out of the hands of all the dangerous people walking the streets today - indeed, locking them up doens't assure success since the Texas Seven stole the guard's guns and were armed even before setting foot on non-prison soil.

But don't create a caste system in which some people are denied the legal ability to buy guns that others of us may do - such that we all have to go around proving that we are members of the latter class, not the former. For one, it's offensive to have to demonstrate the class one is in, or even to have classes at all, and second, it's not like the background checks are able to reduce criminal access to guns at all in the first place.

9 posted on 07/23/2002 2:39:33 PM PDT by coloradan
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To: Zon
morel = more
10 posted on 07/23/2002 2:40:14 PM PDT by Zon
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To: USA21
Well hang on for a tick here. We may not like the original law, but we can hardly fault additional enforcement. As you remember, that's what Clinton kept doing: Passing gun laws, refusing to enforce them, then calling for more gun laws.
11 posted on 07/23/2002 2:40:17 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: rwfromkansas
I can't believe I am saying this, but it sounds reasonable (in theory) to me. It is dangerous for loonies to be going around with weapons.

You do realize that the eventual definition of "mental illness" used for purposes of this statute will be if you ever saw a psychiatrist even once, don't you?

12 posted on 07/23/2002 2:41:20 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum
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To: Tourist Guy
VIDEO ATF
13 posted on 07/23/2002 2:42:00 PM PDT by USA21
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To: USA21
Crazy people can't own guns.

Anyone who wants to own a gun in this day and age must be crazy.

Therefore, gun ownership shall be taken as prima facia evidence of insanity, and that person's guns shall therefore be forfeit.

Private gun ownership is therefore henceforth utterly banned.

(It's for the children.)

14 posted on 07/23/2002 2:43:14 PM PDT by coloradan
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
If you have a gun then you have "mental illness"
15 posted on 07/23/2002 2:44:23 PM PDT by USA21
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To: rwfromkansas
Not everyone who spends time in a mental institution should be barred from owning weapons. If someone attempts suicide or even mentions it to their therapist....the therapist legally has to commit them for 72 hours of observation. Should a brief moment of despair and bad judgement prevent one from being able to excerise their right to self defense?
16 posted on 07/23/2002 2:46:26 PM PDT by Feiny
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To: USA21
""If the FBI had access to New York's records, the senseless act of violence at Our Lady of Peace church in my district could have been averted," said Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., the bill's sponsor."

No, it couldn't have, you ignorant gun grabbing socialist knobhead.

17 posted on 07/23/2002 2:47:01 PM PDT by BlessingInDisguise
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To: coloradan
Then keep the loonies locked up

Amen. The idea that someone is too evil/crazy to be armed, but not so bad that he can't be held, strikes me as totally foolish.

Our goal should be a 100% armed society, one where there is no longer a gun gap between whites and blacks.

18 posted on 07/23/2002 2:47:31 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: USA21
The bill to improve the system is named "Our Lady of Peace," after the church where Troy opened fire March 12. It authorizes Congress to spend more than $1.1 billion for states and courts to comply with the law.

My, oh my, but the taxpayers have deep pockets. I wonder what Congress would have done had he decided to drive a car into a crowd of people at the church, instead.

19 posted on 07/23/2002 2:48:55 PM PDT by Moonman62
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To: BlessingInDisguise
UN gun confiscation program off to good start in Afghanistan
20 posted on 07/23/2002 2:49:06 PM PDT by USA21
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To: Tourist Guy
You may have a point there. Instead, let's jump up and down and scream "NO! NO! NO! NO!" so that just banning everything looks reasonable by comparison.
21 posted on 07/23/2002 2:50:25 PM PDT by Redcloak
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To: USA21
Mental illness as defined by the left: is anybody who does not adhere to socialism, communism, feminism, wacked environmentalism; domestic disputes; jay-walking. too many traffic tickets; listens to Right-Wing talk shows; posts on FR; or seen a shrink for any reason; Gun ownership is strictly prohibited.

You all better watch-out.

22 posted on 07/23/2002 2:51:17 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: coloradan
coloradan: Crazy people can't own guns. Anyone who wants to own a gun in this day and age must be crazy. Therefore, gun ownership shall be taken as prima facia evidence of insanity, and that person's guns shall therefore be forfeit.

Lazamataz was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.

"It's the best there is," coloradan agreed.

23 posted on 07/23/2002 2:51:35 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: USA21; Vic3O3
Bump for later reading.

Semper Fi!
24 posted on 07/23/2002 2:55:19 PM PDT by dd5339
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To: demlosers
Pentagon launches United Nations mock battle… Largest military exercise in history under way in California and Nevada

Mock battle in SoCal and Nevada to test battle technology

By SETH HETTENA Associated Press Writer

Published 3:10 p.m. PDT Thursday, July 18, 2002

SAN DIEGO (AP) - Preparations are underway in Southern California and Nevada for the largest military experiment in U.S. history.

The Millennium Challenge 2002, which begins next week, was mandated by Congress to help U.S. forces prepare for future wars.

About 13,500 troops from the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines will use the latest in military hardware in a simulation of what planners believe the battlefield could look like in five years.

Over three weeks, troops will play out a scenario that echoes real-world events involving simulated weapons of mass destruction, urban warfare, the United Nations and humanitarian relief.

The Joint Forces Command, operating in Suffolk, Va., is coordinating the experiments from July 24 through Aug. 15 off the coast of San Diego and at bases in Southern California and Nevada. Top military brass, including the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the chief of Naval operations, will attend.

The experiments are the fruits of a drive to transform the military from a heavy, mechanized force designed to fight the Soviet Union into mobile, high-tech troops that can deliver swift hammer blows to a different kind of enemy.

"In the Persian Gulf, it took us months and months to stage forces and stockpile logistics," said Tony Billings, a spokesman for Joint Forces Command. "New concepts are designed to cut down on that preparation time dramatically and position U.S. forces so that they're capable of rapidly and decisively striking at the enemy's center of gravity."

Just as remarkable is the fact that all four branches of the military - often riven by intraservice rivalries - are working on the same page.

"It's like you're playing baseball all these years but the infield never worked with the outfield," said Dan Goure of the Lexington Institute in Arlington, Va., who specializes in transformation issues. "Now you've got them all in the field trying to go through a couple of innings."

Two years of planning have gone into the experiment to test how the U.S. military can respond to an international incident that can rapidly spin out-of-control into all-out warfare.

"The question for us is how do we bring all our resources to bear to prevent that from occurring," said Cmdr. Jack Hanzlik, spokesman for the Navy's Third Fleet based in Coronado.

The hypothetical scenario begins with a military coup in a country stricken by a massive earthquake. At the same time, a decision by the World Court over disputed territory outrage the coup leaders and prompts a military buildup and a shipping blockade. In response, the United Nations votes to impose sanctions.

As part of the simulation, parts of which are classified, the U.S. Marines and special forces will destroy a hypothetical weapons of mass destruction site at the former George Air Force Base in Victorville. That will be followed by a 96-hour urban combat exercise that shifts Marines between all-out fighting and peacekeeping.

Off-the-shelf technologies will be tested including Dragon Eye, a five-pound unmanned aerial vehicle that troops in the field can use to scout terrain over surrounding hills. The Navy will test a high-speed vessel capable of maximum speeds of 55 miles per hour.

--- On the Net:

http://www.jfcom.mil/about/experiments/mc02.htm

25 posted on 07/23/2002 2:57:15 PM PDT by USA21
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To: USA21
The FBI's system is supposed to identify felons, drug addicts, domestic abusers, illegal immigrants, people who were involuntarily committed to a mental institution and others legally barred from having a gun.

I love how they conveniently tag on "and others legally barred" as this gives them the opportunity to constantly and capriciously add on any other offense that can be used to prohibit people from owning guns. Pretty soon speeding tickets and seatbelt violations will be applied to NICS checks.

26 posted on 07/23/2002 3:02:01 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
You do realize that the eventual definition of "mental illness" used for purposes of this statute will be if you ever saw a psychiatrist even once, don't you?

Not to mention the millions of people in this country who have been prescribed SSRIs like Prozac or Paxil which doctors dole out like tic-tacs.

27 posted on 07/23/2002 3:03:40 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: USA21
Congress instead needs to pass a referendum opposing the fact that none of the parishioners were armed. The first two shots out could have been the last thing this nut case did and only one innocent life, at most, would have been lost.

Here is what is wrong with this "responsible, gun-safety legislation." John Doe receives a death threat from the rapist whose ass he kicked the day before while protecting a teenage girl from having her innocense stolen. He, out of fear for his life, as well as his family's lives, wants to buy a simple rifle (not even a handgun). The system messes up, and it is going to take 72 hours for this man to get his weapon (a rifle, not an "evil handgun). 65 hours later, a man bursts through his front door and kills him, rapes his wife, and molests his little girl. Now is that responsible or safe? Didn't think so.

Or, in this case; same senario, they updated the system so well that it brings up the time, 16 years ago, he and a few buddies on leave from the military, got into a bar room scuffle. He plead guilty, even though he didn't start the brawl, in order to get back on base without being court martialed for the unbecoming behavior, without ever knowing that the "delayed" consequence would be a loss of his constitutional rights 16 years down the road. Again, 65 hours later, a man bursts through his front door and kills him, rapes his wife, and molests his little girl. This could have been avoided if only he had been able to read the future, 16 years earlier, when using a legal manuever in order to get his troubles over and behind him.

The sad thing is that liberal President Bush won't veto this when it comes to his desk.

28 posted on 07/23/2002 3:08:50 PM PDT by rodeocowboy
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To: Drew68
Or anyone who ever had a Ritalin shoved down his thoat when he was a child.
29 posted on 07/23/2002 3:10:46 PM PDT by KarlInOhio
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To: rodeocowboy
I have thought of the type of scenarios you have posted. Defying an un-Constitutional law is a better alternative.
30 posted on 07/23/2002 3:18:49 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: USA21
Cool clip. The last 3 words sum it up...
31 posted on 07/23/2002 3:21:27 PM PDT by Tourist Guy
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To: Redcloak
Not sure if you are reacloak redcoat or whatever, don't attempt to paint me into a screamists corner.

One is still entitled to their opinion, are they not? A slippery slope by any other name is still a slippery slope.

Tootles. Or would Zeig Heil! be more apropos?

32 posted on 07/23/2002 3:24:12 PM PDT by Tourist Guy
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To: Tourist Guy
Watch out you will be required to take a Psychiatric Tests

Right from the N.G.O of the U.N

33 posted on 07/23/2002 3:24:18 PM PDT by USA21
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To: rwfromkansas
I can't believe I am saying this, but it sounds reasonable (in theory) to me. It is dangerous for loonies to be going around with weapons. We better keep an eye on this though because the potential for what constitutes "mentally ill" could be abused and expanded to "fanatical right-wingers" depending upon who is in the WH.


I can't believe you're saying this, because it sounds unreasonable (in theory) to me.
If it is dangerous for 'loonies' to be going around with weapons, seeing that you are being unreasonable & loonie about this, we're gonna keep an eye on you.
And as the potential for what constitutes "mentally ill" could easily be expanded to "fanatical right-wingers", - depending upon who is in the WH, you are in serious trouble.



34 posted on 07/23/2002 3:25:47 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: USA21
>>>Right from the N.G.O of the U.N<<<

I've no doubt that I would fail. Soylent Green anyone?

35 posted on 07/23/2002 3:33:07 PM PDT by Tourist Guy
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To: Tourist Guy

36 posted on 07/23/2002 3:35:39 PM PDT by USA21
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To: tpaine
right-wingers", are "mentally ill" according to U.N ,liberals
37 posted on 07/23/2002 3:38:53 PM PDT by USA21
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To: USA21
The hypothetical scenario begins with a military coup in a country stricken by a massive earthquake. At the same time, a decision by the World Court over disputed territory outrage the coup leaders and prompts a military buildup and a shipping blockade. In response, the United Nations votes to impose sanctions.

No Soldier, Sailor, or Airman signed-up to do the bidding for the World Court or U.N. See below:

STATUTE Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:

''I, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

So help me God!"

I don't See the words UN or World Court anywhere.

38 posted on 07/23/2002 3:40:15 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: All
What we have here is another attempt to use the systems iin place to affect another gun-law that has niether the psycic ability to foresee tragedy, or any any enforcement criteria. It is a $1.1 billion government program to prove you are a law-abiding gun-owner.

AND IT WILL STILL NOT BE "INSTANT" and more prone to delays, which are frequent instead of unusual,regardless of what the article says.

This is true here in the SW. We have a gun show on the weekends and POOF!, the system is down, or delayed, or won't answer. As an FFL that means a lost sale.

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y should look into fixing the problems with the existing system instead of creating an avenue for more restrictions on gun-owners. What a nit.

And watch out, the usual suspects will try to hang every piece of anti-gun legislation on the back of this, including a permanent assault weapons ban, more restrictive gun-show "loophole" closer, registration for gun-show promoters and ATTENDEES, much like S.90.

39 posted on 07/23/2002 3:44:31 PM PDT by Pistolshot
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To: demlosers
what are peacekeepers?
40 posted on 07/23/2002 3:44:46 PM PDT by USA21
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To: demlosers
Have you very heard of the Michael New case?
41 posted on 07/23/2002 3:46:20 PM PDT by USA21
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To: Pistolshot
I predict now that there will be U.N. peacekeepers in America.

They will work along with psychologists, doctors, police, and military.to wich there are Now

They will be able ot put in your address of your home to know everything about you from government data bases.

They will know if you own a gun, the last time that you have seen a doctor, and all of you financial details.

The police wil come to your door with a psychologist and take you for mental testing.

And remember a law was just passed that the government has the right to force feed you drugs.

42 posted on 07/23/2002 3:56:44 PM PDT by USA21
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To: USA21
Have you very heard of the Michael New case?

Yes, I believe he was the Soldier who refused to don a Blue beret. He was right of course, but he bucked the system and the Brass. Just like Billy Mitchell went against the Brass @$$es. They court martialed New like Mitchell because they supposedly threatened order and discipline.

what are peacekeepers?

In most cases a miss-use of our military. They are not meals-on-wheels!

43 posted on 07/23/2002 4:00:59 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: demlosers
Do you have a copy of the Uniform Code of Military of 1953 ?

look at the changes in Uniform Code

44 posted on 07/23/2002 4:01:21 PM PDT by USA21
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To: demlosers
In most cases a miss-use of our military. They are not meals-on-wheels!

under the command of the United Nation

45 posted on 07/23/2002 4:04:22 PM PDT by USA21
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To: USA21
Speaking of " gun checks " , does your state impose any restrictions on the purchase of shotguns/rifles by out-of-state residents ??

Private reply OK.

46 posted on 07/23/2002 4:05:18 PM PDT by genefromjersey
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To: USA21
Do you have a copy of the Uniform Code of Military of 1953 ?

look at the changes in Uniform Code

No. I'll put that on my things to do list. :-)

47 posted on 07/23/2002 4:05:55 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: rwfromkansas
I can't believe I am saying this, but it sounds reasonable (in theory) to me. It is dangerous for loonies to be going around with weapons.

May I see your medical records please? Please post them for all of us to judge if you are medically fit to own a firearm. In case you didn't know it such things as simple medication reactions can get you involuntarly committed to a state mental institute. Do you take over the counter cold medications? Be carefull they can do it to ya too. I know make everybody sign for their cold medications also. Anyone purchasing cold medications in the past two years can not purchase a weapon.

This is yet just one more example of government stepping on privacy and second ammendment rights. I do not support it. Also notice the others this covers illegals ect could care less about the stinking Brady Bill because they will buy elsewhere same as I will. I will not make a public gun purchase. It's nonna the Governemts Bussiness.

48 posted on 07/23/2002 4:07:44 PM PDT by cva66snipe
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To: USA21
under the command of the United Nation

They should never be.

49 posted on 07/23/2002 4:09:57 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: Zon
morel[html for strikeover]= a really good mushroom
50 posted on 07/23/2002 4:20:02 PM PDT by GopherIt
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