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The IDF will equip its troops with the new Tavor assault rifl
IMRA ^ | 7-24-02

Posted on 07/24/2002 6:12:03 AM PDT by SJackson

The IDF will equip its troops with the new Tavor assault rifle, manufactured by Israel Military Industries.

Globes' correspondent 23 July 2002

Hebrew daily "Yediot Ahronot" reports that the IDF will equip its troops with the new Tavor assault rifle, manufactured by Israel Military Industries (IMI), the IDF Army Headquarters decided yesterday. The decision will shortly be sent to IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon for approval.

Most IDF troops currently use the obsolescent US M-16 or Israeli Galil rifle. The IDF decided a new, more advanced rifle was needed. The two alternatives were the Tavor and the M-4, an updated version of the short M-16. The advantage of the M-4 is it could be bought with US military aid.

Both rifles underwent extended testing in the past year. The Tavor was given to soldiers in the Givati infantry brigade, and the M-4 to the Nahal infantry brigade. Both rifles saw operational use in the fighting in the territories.

Yesterday, GOC Army Headquarters Maj.-Gen. Yiftah Ron Tal convened a meeting that decided that the Tavor will be the IDF's next rifle. The IDF will shortly open negotiations with IMI to finalize delivery details.

The Tavor is equipped with an Israeli-built integral reflex optical reflective sight. The rifle's rearward center of gravity provides easy aiming, including in the standing position. The rifle passed many firing tests, proving effective in difficult field conditions. Givati infantrymen, who have used the Tavor for months, have heaped praise on the new rifle, saying it was very comfortable, accurate and always reliable on the battlefield.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Israel
KEYWORDS: assaultrifle; banglist; israel
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1 posted on 07/24/2002 6:12:03 AM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson

TAR-25 (Tavor Assault Rifle)

CTAR-25 (Commando Tavor Assault Rifle)

STAR-25 (Sharpshooter Tavor Assault Rifle)

2 posted on 07/24/2002 6:18:46 AM PDT by Dallas
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To: SJackson
Here is the picture. Another trendy but weird bullpup design. IMI built the Gallil, often considered the Cadillac of AK-47s. This means it may work better than the current Enfield bullpup, which has been plagued by problems from day one. The Styer AUG is probably the best of the bullpup designs currently in service.


3 posted on 07/24/2002 6:21:43 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: SJackson
The IDF will equip its troops with the new Tavor assault rifle, manufactured by Israel Military Industries.

Gee, where do you suppose they got the money for this?

4 posted on 07/24/2002 6:25:16 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: SJackson
The advantage of the M-4 is it could be bought with US military aid.

Gotta love it.

Boonie Rat

MACV SOCOM, PhuBai/Hue '65-'66

5 posted on 07/24/2002 6:25:17 AM PDT by Boonie Rat
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To: Illbay
The advantage of the M-4 is it could be bought with US military aid.

Looks like you started typing as soon as you saw the story had something to do with Jews.

Andrew

6 posted on 07/24/2002 7:09:30 AM PDT by Andy Ross
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To: Andy Ross
No, as soon as it had something to do with the (U.S. subsidized) Israeli military.
7 posted on 07/24/2002 7:32:04 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: Illbay
Looks like we got our money's worth, in my opinion.
8 posted on 07/24/2002 7:39:55 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
Oh? I wasn't aware that OUR military were receiving these rifles.
9 posted on 07/24/2002 7:42:46 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: Illbay
Yeah, but the bile overflowed so quickly that you failed to notice that US funds could only have been used for the American rifle.

Andrew
10 posted on 07/24/2002 7:47:09 AM PDT by Andy Ross
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To: Illbay
Don't be dense. You think the technology won't be shared?
11 posted on 07/24/2002 7:52:53 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Andy Ross
This is as silly an argument as that of Congress' promising a "social security lockbox."

The money's all in one pile, dude.

12 posted on 07/24/2002 7:57:01 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: 1rudeboy
I think we can come up with our own technology. In fact, I'll bet if you look into it, the Israelis have manufactured this weapon with AMERICAN technology--possibly stolen.
13 posted on 07/24/2002 7:57:52 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: *bang_list
"SUBSIDIZE LOCAL INDUSTRY" Bump

Wait and see if anybody else buys this bullpup? Interesting....

14 posted on 07/24/2002 7:58:51 AM PDT by xsrdx
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To: Jack Black
IMI built the Gallil, often considered the Cadillac of AK-47s.

The Galil is actually a hybridized AKM, it incorporates elements of Stoners AR15/AR180 also. The AK cadillac is probably the Valmet.

The AUG and French FAMAS, along with the SA80, are the only other bullpups adopted by major armies, of the three only the AUG has been successfully exported.

Interestingly I've heard little about this rifle in the small arms press, it's been developed quietly.

M4 MWS or SOPMOD is a more flexible choice but perhaps this rifle will be successful.

The IDF is generally intolerant of crap, apparently unlike the UK MOD.

15 posted on 07/24/2002 8:09:01 AM PDT by xsrdx
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To: Jack Black
Say -- that looks like my 'Harris bipod'....
16 posted on 07/24/2002 8:09:08 AM PDT by Crowcreek
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To: Crowcreek
Yup, a Harris bipod on JB's pic, also looks like an ACOG scope or similar, not the issue reflex. Hmmm.
17 posted on 07/24/2002 8:12:01 AM PDT by xsrdx
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To: Illbay
Gee, where do you suppose they got the money for this?

From Jewish investors in Israel's economy.

The bigger question is why they need to invest so much of their GDP in their military? Could it have anything to do with morons constantly running down Judaism and Israel and thus encouraging the common enemies of Israel and America?

*********************************
ISRAEL IS DEFENDING OUR LAND
BY BATTLING TERROR ON THEIRS.
*********************************

In fact, I'll bet if you look into it, the Israelis have manufactured this weapon with AMERICAN technology--possibly stolen.

In fact, I'll bet if you look into it, we'll find your posts have been inspired from pro-jihad sites, and your computer possibly subsidized with checks from Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

18 posted on 07/24/2002 8:13:08 AM PDT by Yehuda
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To: xsrdx; archy
Links accessible thru here




HomeOperating UnitsIntegrated Security SystemsSmall ArmsTavor - Bull Pup Assault Rifle

Small Arms: Tavor - Bull Pup Assault Rifle


Uzi - Sub-Machine Gun (SMG) Galil - Assault Rifle Negev - Light Machine Gun (LMG) Jericho Tavor - Bull Pup Assault Rifle

Israel Military Industries is launching the new family of the TAVOR assault rifles. The weapon is offered in four configurations:
  • The basic design - the T.A.R-21 Tavor Assault Rifle.
  • A sharp-shooting configuration is offered as a squad weapon.
  • For commando, airborne, paratroopers and special rescue units, as well as tank crews, a short Tavor assault rifle is offered.
  • Micro T.A.R is specially configured for security forces and special missions.
Tavor uses the proven, compact Bull pup design, which was optimized to best match the ergonomics and mission requirements of the modern warrior, providing natural handling, intuitive aiming from all firing positions and improved hit accuracy. Accuracy and target acquisition is enhanced, by the use of accurate aiming, through the use of an integral reflex optical reflective sight, which projects the aiming point on the center of the sight. Tavor has an attachment for additional sighting devices, such as a 3rd generation night vision sight, which can be installed with no zeroing. Tavor is gas operated, using rotating bolt action. All types use standard NATO 5.56mm ammunition (M855/SS109), accommodate a 30 round magazine and sustain a rate of fire of 750 - 900 rounds per minute, and have the following specifications:












Model

TAR/STAR

CTAR

MTAR

Caliber

5.56mm NATO M855 / SS109

Overall length (mm)

720

640

480

Barrel length (mm)

460

380

250

Weight empty (gr.)

2800

2700

2400

Combat weight (gr.) with: optical sight, 30 round magazine, carrying sling

3635

3535

3235

Trigger pull weight (kg)

2.5 - 4.0

Integrated sight

integral red dot + laser designator

Rifling twist

6 grooves, 1:7" RH twist

Rate of fire (RPM)

750 - 900

Operation

gas operation, rotating bolt

Muzzle velocity (m/sec)

890

860

770

Optional Accessories

  • Tele-converter

  • 3rd generation night vision (no zeroing needed)

  • Carrying sling

  • 20 round magazine

  • 30 round magazine

  • Cleaning kit & cleaning rod

  • Bipod & bipod adapter

  • M-203 grenade launcher adapter

  • Arms (NATO) rails

  • Left hand kit (bolt)

  • Silencer

  • Various sights

  • Blank firing attachment & magazine

  • Miles adapter

  • Short butt pad

  • Short (SAR) barrel

  • Long (sniping) barrel


Back to Small Arms
 

Created by G-sites
Database generated by DOWS - Database Oriented Web System

19 posted on 07/24/2002 8:25:02 AM PDT by Yehuda
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To: Yehuda
Right, Yehuda, even if he doesn't think Israel has a right to defend herself, you would think the phrase "first line of defense" might have some meaning.
20 posted on 07/24/2002 8:34:32 AM PDT by Let's Roll
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To: Illbay
I don't think that they have to steal the technology. The Zionist Occupied Government probably just hands it over.

Andrew
21 posted on 07/24/2002 8:50:03 AM PDT by Andy Ross
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To: Illbay
IMI is a very successful company on it's own. They make the Desert Eagle, Baby Eagle, Jerico and sell ammunition. Do a little research and you'll understand.
22 posted on 07/24/2002 8:58:29 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: SJackson
California or bust.
23 posted on 07/24/2002 9:24:12 AM PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: SJackson
Does it come in a left hand model ? This actually looks like a .223 rifle I'd take a chance on.
24 posted on 07/24/2002 9:26:40 AM PDT by Centurion2000
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To: Shooter 2.5
IMI is a very successful company on it's own. They make the Desert Eagle, Baby Eagle, Jerico and sell ammunition. Do a little research and you'll understand.

Don't forget the BFR (Bigger,Finest, Revolver) .... I have a healthy respect for any revolver that can shoot 45/70 Government.

25 posted on 07/24/2002 9:28:40 AM PDT by Centurion2000
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To: Centurion2000; SJackson
"Left hand kit (bolt)" (see specs above)
26 posted on 07/24/2002 9:36:29 AM PDT by Yehuda
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To: Jack Black
Here is the picture. Another trendy but weird bullpup design. IMI built the Gallil, often considered the Cadillac of AK-47s. This means it may work better than the current Enfield bullpup, which has been plagued by problems from day one. The Styer AUG is probably the best of the bullpup designs currently in service.

My pick would go to the French FAMAS G2. The Steyr has had some problems, particularly in sandy/desert climes, and the difficulties the Australians had with their F88 version, though now largely worked out, are another reason for dropping the AUG a few points.

The French Paras, Foreign Legion and Marsouins have been very happy with their FI versions, known as *Le Clarion* [the bugle] due to its approximate shape, and it's been combat proven in the Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia and Afghanistan...among other things. The primary complaint is that it's a bit unwieldly with an M203 grenade launcher fitted beneath, a trait shared with most other military bullpup rifles, which will likely require a purpose-built or integral UGL design.

The Israeli Tavor, offered to the Serbs and Turks as well, may be the equal of the Clarion, but is probably not significantly *better.* We'll see.


27 posted on 07/24/2002 9:56:30 AM PDT by archy
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To: xsrdx
The Galil is actually a hybridized AKM, it incorporates elements of Stoners AR15/AR180 also. The AK cadillac is probably the Valmet.

Well the AR15 and AR180 are quite different. The AR-180 is often described as using an "AK-47 style recoil system", meaning a piston as oppposed to the gas tube of the AR-15. Do you know what parts of the Galil are changed. One that is obvious is the folding stock, which is a clone of the FN-FAL PARA folding stock.

I've handled but never shot the Gallil in both .308 and .223 and the workmanship was excellent. I've never handled a Valmet, by I own some other Sako guns and they are super high quality. I believe the Valmet was (is?) built by Sako (which was really just Finnish National Arms in the 70s ... now it's a part of Beretta!)

A few other nominees for Cadallac of AK-47s would be the Robarms imported VEPR. It's built on the thicker RPK machinegun reciever stampings - making it much more rigid, and thus accurate (and heavier) than most other AKs. Mechanisms are identical.

Another might be the Arsenal Arms built SAM-7, built in Nevada using blueprints from Bulgaria! They machine the recievers, unlike almost all other current production AKs which stamp them. Funny to see US high tech know how and expensive forge and machine manufacturing being used to build a rifle that was designed to be stamped out cheaply in 3rd world hell holes. Things really come full circle. Below, SAM-7 Classic

ROBARMS WEB SITE

ARSENAL ARMS WEB SITE

AK-47.NET DISCUSSION BOARD

28 posted on 07/24/2002 10:07:03 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Shooter 2.5
The Baby Eagles are actually made by Tanfoglio, whose guns are sold here under the EAA Witness brand. They may also make the Desert Eagle, I'm not sure.
29 posted on 07/24/2002 10:12:13 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: SJackson
bump
30 posted on 07/24/2002 10:13:29 AM PDT by VOA
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To: Illbay
No, as soon as it had something to do with the (U.S. subsidized) Israeli military.

As long as the dough is spent to kill your pali pal's, its money well spent.

31 posted on 07/24/2002 10:16:56 AM PDT by 68 grunt
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To: xsrdx
The Galil is actually a hybridized AKM, it incorporates elements of Stoners AR15/AR180 also. The AK cadillac is probably the Valmet.

Hardly. The AKM utilizes a stamped/pressed receiver; the Galil was not only developed from Finnish Valmet m/62 receivers, but Israel Galili's first prototypes were actually built on Finnish-marked receivers, using American 1:12 twist barrels and Stoner M63 automatic rifle magazines. The milled-receiver rk/62 Valmet's are indeed hell for stout, but have been superseded by the stamped receiver Valmet m/76 more akin to the AKM, though the m/76 has itself been replaced in Finnish military service by the newer rk95TP- which has reverted to a milled receiver again.

The AUG and French FAMAS, along with the SA80, are the only other bullpups adopted by major armies, of the three only the AUG has been successfully exported.

It's unclear how widespread the issue of the new bullpup the Chinese PLA has developed, but it appears to be in the hands of their airborne and Naval Landing Force [Marines] at least. And of course the enormously successful Uzi submachinegun can be considered a bullpup itself.

Interestingly I've heard little about this rifle in the small arms press, it's been developed quietly.

There've been stories in Jane's International Defense Review, Small Arms Review, Gun World, and Soldier of Fortune, at least. Even the SFOR Informer had a short but detailed article on the things.

M4 MWS or SOPMOD is a more flexible choice but perhaps this rifle will be successful.

And hopefully less fragile. Lots of M4 buttstocks breaking off in Israeli service I hear, which leaves the gun unfirable. The Israelis had such difficulties with cut-down M16 carbines being crushed and broken aboard their armoured vehicles that cutdown Galil *Glilon* shorty carbines instead replaced the Uzi as the Israeli tankists' off-vehicle weaponry.

The IDF is generally intolerant of crap, apparently unlike the UK MOD.

The Israelis will certainly use a less than desirable bit of gear until something better comes along, but their real brilliance is in carefully noting intirm fixes and field expedients from their troops in the field, and often adopting those modifications as upgrades service-wide. One thing the Israeli supply and ordnance branches do not have is a *Not invented Here* rejection factor- they happily steal from the best they can find, almost as if their lives depended on doing so....

-archy-/-

32 posted on 07/24/2002 10:22:52 AM PDT by archy
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To: archy
We're missing another fugly bullpup: the FN-2000. Does any army use this gun? Sad to go from the beauty of the FN-LAR to this ... my grand kids will probably think it's a classic. This pic has the attached grenade launcher. The data sheet proudly notes it has an intergal battery compartment. If that's progress in gun design I guess I'm a retro-grouch.


33 posted on 07/24/2002 10:39:34 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Illbay
Where you not so reflexively anti Isreal, you would understand that the point was that Israel is arming itself WITHOUT US AID!

IMI sells many successful weapons from the Uzi to the Desert Eagle series around the world. Israel has the money.

34 posted on 07/24/2002 10:46:08 AM PDT by rmlew
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To: archy
Thanks for the well informed post.

My point on the Galil is that it's not an AK - the gas system and rotating bolt are as closely related to Stoner's design as they are Kalashnikov's, although you could argue the AR180 was an evolved AK.

The Uzi is a subgun and thus not in the same category.

Most M16 Carbines in IDF service are in fact CAR15 variants, not true M4's. The collapsible buttstock design for the M4 has gone through several design evolutions, but they are still fragile compared to fixed or folding stock designs. The most recent "ribbed" buttstocks are pretty durable, although they still utilize the same aluminum recoil spring tube as the previous versions.

Didn't know about the PLA rifle, and now that I've started looking, I've found Tavor articles everywhere. So much for being on top of things.

35 posted on 07/24/2002 11:01:39 AM PDT by xsrdx
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To: xsrdx
My point on the Galil is that it's not an AK - the gas system and rotating bolt are as closely related to Stoner's design as they are Kalashnikov's, although you could argue the AR180 was an evolved AK.

The Galil is indeed an AK, and shares the gas system and turnbolt locking with the AK and Valmet to such an extent that parts are interchangable between the different weapons. My own Valmet m/62 was eventually rebuilt with Galil parts to Galil specifications, as the barrel threads are identical and the bolt carriers will interchange with their respective 7,62x39 bolt and 5,56mm bolt. One of these days, I'll likely return my Galil to its original chambering, using an extra North Korean AK47 carrier/operating rod, gas piston and bolt assembly I've got leftover from another previous rifle.

The Galil, Valmet and AK all utilize a stud on the bolt to turn the bolt as it reciprocates in the carrier, locking up to the rifle's receiver. The Stoner's bolt also rotates, but instead locks up to an extension of the barrel fitted with recesses for locking multiple bolt lugs, allowing the use of receivers that need not themselves bear the stresses of withstanding barrel locking pressures, allowing light alloy and stamped sheetmetal receivers to be used.

The Uzi is a subgun and thus not in the same category.

Only that its compact design helped pave the way for rifle-caliber bullpups, particularly those from the same source.

Most M16 Carbines in IDF service are in fact CAR15 variants, not true M4's. The collapsible buttstock design for the M4 has gone through several design evolutions, but they are still fragile compared to fixed or folding stock designs. The most recent "ribbed" buttstocks are pretty durable, although they still utilize the same aluminum recoil spring tube as the previous versions.

Most of those in Israeli service that I've fired and handled, of some 200 or so, are rebuilt M16A1 rifle lower receivers, with several variants of replacement carbine upper receivers with shorter [than M16A1 length] barrels. There are some honest-to G_d M4 and M4A1 carbines to be found in Israel, but the 16-inch barreled upper as per the American semiauto *AR-15/ CAR15 sporter* is also very commonly found atop an M16A1 lower.... and they're also sometimes cut down to shorter barrel lengths as well.

Didn't know about the PLA rifle, and now that I've started looking, I've found Tavor articles everywhere. So much for being on top of things.

There will be more to come. And Barrett in Tennessee [the folks who make the M82A1 .50 caliber semiauto rifles] have a *Tavor semi* that they exhibited at the last SHOT show, that they hope to have on the market and in production around the time the *Assault Rifle ban* law sunsets around the end of 2004, though their version appears to be based on Galil internals and components. But it should still be worth a look.

-archy-/-

36 posted on 07/24/2002 11:42:42 AM PDT by archy
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To: archy
There will be more to come. And Barrett in Tennessee [the folks who make the M82A1 .50 caliber semiauto rifles] have a *Tavor semi* that they exhibited at the last SHOT show, that they hope to have on the market and in production around the time the *Assault Rifle ban* law sunsets around the end of 2004, though their version appears to be based on Galil internals and components. But it should still be worth a look.

<===*click for bigger pic*

Angela Barrett of Barrett Firearms with their new Tavor 21 bullpup in .223. The very well-designed bullpup is fully convertible for left-hand operation and accepts standard AR-15 / M-16 magazines. This extremely handy gun will be available from Barrett in mid-2002.

37 posted on 07/24/2002 11:50:08 AM PDT by archy
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To: archy
The Galil is indeed an AK, and shares the gas system and turnbolt locking with the AK and Valmet to such an extent that parts are interchangable between the different weapons

That is surprising and doesn't mesh with what I understood to be the case, especially since they (AK vs. Valmet/ARM) will be different calibers.

IIRC, the initial comments made regarding the Galil, when first introduced, made reference to evolved changes to the operating system, inspired by the Stoner designs, in order to enhance lock up and thus accuracy. Galil's use M16 magazines so the geometry has to be slightly different in the lower receiver.

Now I am curious - since building a licensed Valmet in 556 would be cheaper, why bother developing the Galil?

38 posted on 07/24/2002 11:59:54 AM PDT by xsrdx
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To: Illbay
Gee, where do you suppose they got the money for this?

Taxes on the Israeli people.

39 posted on 07/24/2002 12:04:17 PM PDT by BenF
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To: Illbay
"... In fact, I'll bet if you look into it, the Israelis have manufactured this weapon with AMERICAN technology--possibly stolen."

I'll take that bet. How much are you wagering?

40 posted on 07/24/2002 12:06:10 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: Illbay
I think we can come up with our own technology

Unfortunately, with the laws that we have in this country, it is illegal for the common individual entrepeneur to invent a better full auto military rifle.

The best ideas can come out of someone's garage more often than from a gov't contractor.

41 posted on 07/24/2002 12:30:20 PM PDT by MrB
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To: archy
Everything I've looked at substantiates the Galil as direct M62/ AK copy, not sure where I came across the M16 influence but the only "influence" I can confirm is the move to better materials and tighter tolerances.

The question then is why did IMI develop the Galil, unless it was simply to adapt a well made AK (M62) to 5.56mm prior to introduction of the 5.56mm M76 Valmet. Otherwise it would certainly appear simpler to license produce the M76.

42 posted on 07/24/2002 12:46:14 PM PDT by xsrdx
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To: xsrdx
"(Gal)...worked up a 5.56 mm version of the AK47 using a barrel, bolt face, parts, and 30-shot box magazines from the American Stoner 63 Weapons system . The test weapon showed excellent promise. In the next step, preparation of a production model, IMI engineers purchased samples of the Valmet M62 from the European-American firm Interarms.... To these Finnish receivers, his production people mounted barrels machined from Colt M16 barrel blanks. A modified Stoner 63 magazine was evolved for the rifle. (Ezell,The AK47 Story at 207-09)."

Perhaps it was the use of Stoner 63 parts and M16 barrel blanks that evolved into "M16/AK hybrid", when in fact it appears they were selected primarily to serve as suitable 5.56mm components in an AK based design.

43 posted on 07/24/2002 12:55:39 PM PDT by xsrdx
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To: Jack Black
Here is where the problem arose. I knew for a fact that IMI made the Desert Eagle. You were sure that the Baby Eagle was made by Tanfoglio. Magnum Research lists the Desert Eagle and the Baby Eagle as theirs. I believe through an admittedly hap-hazard search that Magnum Research is the Distributor and possibly the designer of one or both in the U.S.. That's what caused the problem.
Anyway, IMI doesn't need our influence. They are a formidable firearms industry on their own.
44 posted on 07/24/2002 1:00:00 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: xsrdx
That is surprising and doesn't mesh with what I understood to be the case, especially since they (AK vs. Valmet/ARM) will be different calibers.

Different calibers, and thus differing bolt faces for their respective cartridges, but the same internal receiver dimensions, bolt rail heights and width, and overall length of carrier travel. There are differences between the AK and Galil or Valmet stock [square fitting as opposed to round] and in the foreend furniture and sights, but nothing overly drastic. The Galil uses an ambidextrous safety/selector lever, since when its stock is folded across the right side of the barrel, access to the Kalishnikov-design lever is limited. But the external dimensions of the rifles' bolts, as they ride in their respective carriers, is the same.

Magazine wells and catch assemblies are a bit different, again, not too severely so.

IIRC, the initial comments made regarding the Galil, when first introduced, made reference to evolved changes to the operating system, inspired by the Stoner designs, in order to enhance lock up and thus accuracy. Galil's use M16 magazines so the geometry has to be slightly different in the lower receiver.

Nope. Galils use a magazine derived from Stoner's M62 Stoner LMG, as used by the US Navy SEALS in it's belt-fed Mark 23 version. The magazine for a .223 Valmet M76 can be made to work in a Galil with a little careful attention to the magazine catch lug. There is an adapter to allow the use of the M16 rifle magazine in the Galil, but most Israeli tank crew prefer the steel Galil magazines, less likely to dent than the aluminum M16 mags, and which hold 35 or 50 rounds in the Galil, rather than the m16 rifle's 30-round capacity.

Now I am curious - since building a licensed Valmet in 556 would be cheaper, why bother developing the Galil?

The sights are arrangesd somewhat differently, but the Israelis wanted a number of features specificly for their theater of operations and to replace the conglomoration of FAL rifles, FALO and FN-Model D BAR automatic rifles, Uzi SMGs and US M1 carbines and AK47s previously in use. And they wanted a full-auto capability more controllable than their FAL rifles had been, particularly by female Israeli troops. And of course, the Israelis had no manufacturing rights for international sales of their previous automatic rifle, the Belgian FAL.

Note too that the Swedes considered the adoption of the FFV-890C Galil variant before deciding on the FNC as their replacement for their older H&K G3s before choosing the FN-C carbine as their *AK5* current-issue rifle instead.

That was a particularly clean Galil variant, and might have become as salable to other Scandanavian nations and their neighbours as the Galil has proven to be: to Guatemala, South Africa and Estonia, among others- and maybe Turkey, if they don't go for the Tavors.

45 posted on 07/24/2002 1:03:15 PM PDT by archy
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To: xsrdx
Everything I've looked at substantiates the Galil as direct M62/ AK copy, not sure where I came across the M16 influence but the only "influence" I can confirm is the move to better materials and tighter tolerances.

The question then is why did IMI develop the Galil, unless it was simply to adapt a well made AK (M62) to 5.56mm prior to introduction of the 5.56mm M76 Valmet. Otherwise it would certainly appear simpler to license produce the M76.

Note that the Galil receiver is indeed machined, but not forged, but rather cut from bar stock/ billet material. That the design appeared as CNC machine tools made the labor expense of producing such a design less of a negative factor didn't hurt a bit.

Note too, that the Finns have now abandoned the stamped-receiver rk/76 in 5,56mm NATO, and that likewise the initial 1947-50 *type 1* Kalishnikov production that utilized a stamped receiver was withdrawn by the Soviet Army and replaced with the second version milled receiver design commonly encountered in Vietnam, standard until the modernized AKM version appeared circa 1959.

There have also been reports of failures of some stamped SVD Dragonov and PSL rifle receivers when using heavy-bullet 7,62x54r ammunition meant for the PK [Kalishnikov design again!] light machinegun, well beyond the pressure and velocity levels of the AK47s 7,62x39mm M43 cartridge, but which may still show a possible limitation of the circa-1959 stamped-receiver AKM *third-generation* AK design- as do RPK Squad Auto Weapons, built with thicker sheet metal material than their AKM brethern.

46 posted on 07/24/2002 1:19:11 PM PDT by archy
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To: Jack Black; Shooter 2.5
The Baby Eagles are actually made by Tanfoglio, whose guns are sold here under the EAA Witness brand. They may also make the Desert Eagle, I'm not sure.

Here is where the problem arose. I knew for a fact that IMI made the Desert Eagle. You were sure that the Baby Eagle was made by Tanfoglio. Magnum Research lists the Desert Eagle and the Baby Eagle as theirs. I believe through an admittedly hap-hazard search that Magnum Research is the Distributor and possibly the designer of one or both in the U.S.. That's what caused the problem. Anyway, IMI doesn't need our influence. They are a formidable firearms industry on their own.

Magnum Research is a company founded by an engineer from Wisconsin (or some other North-West state), and IMI produced the Desert Eagle as part of a joint venture. The Baby Eagle that we are talking about is a smaller gun using the same technology as the Desert Eagle. As I understand it, Magnum Research sells the Baby Eagle, and IMI calls it “Jericho.” Tangoglio is an Italian company that has a connection to EAA Witness, but the EAA Witness handguns are nothing like the Desert Eagle or the Baby Eagle. Although a Desert Eagle or a Baby Eagle may look similar to 1911 style guns on the outside, the design on the inside is completely different.

47 posted on 07/24/2002 1:51:45 PM PDT by Stat-boy
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To: Stat-boy
Thanks for the clarification. I did some more research and found that Tanfoglio has nothing to do with the Baby Eagle. The confusion came from a pistol that they called Baby. They have a Baby Standard and a Baby Combat. The Witness that you mentioned is based on a CZ 75 design.
Before I would say that the other poster is completely wrong, there still may be some licensing contracts to manufacture in different countries that I don't know about.
48 posted on 07/24/2002 2:30:42 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: archy
You'd think someone with the last name Barrett would know better than to have their finger on the trigger; even if it has a lock on it!?
49 posted on 07/24/2002 3:45:18 PM PDT by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig
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To: big ern
Yeah, you're a gun nut. All I checked for was a wedding ring. After I noticed all the rings, I started to wonder how many tattoos she had.
50 posted on 07/24/2002 3:56:17 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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