Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Nazi ally, Hajj Amin Al Husseini, is Arafat's “hero”
Palestinian Media Watch Bulletin | Augustus 05 2002 | Itamar Marcus

Posted on 08/05/2002 11:50:10 AM PDT by knighthawk

In an interview this week Arafat called the Arab leader and Nazi ally, Hajj Amin Al Husseini, “our hero”. Arafat referred to “our hero Al Husseini" as a symbol of withstanding world pressure, having remained an Arab leader in spite of demands to have him replaced because of his Nazi ties. This he compared to Palestinian withstanding of world pressure for reform of the Palestinian Authority today, which includes the American demand to replace Arafat.

Background:

“Hajj Amin Al Husseini (1895-1974) was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem... He supported the Nazis, and especially their program for the mass murder of the Jews. He visited numerous death camps and encouraged Hitler to extend the "Final Solution" to the Jews of North Africa and Palestine. In 1946 he escaped to Egypt.” [Simon Wiesenthal Center Web Site]

The following is the text from the interview:

Interviewer: “I have heard voices from within the [Palestinian] Authority in the past few weeks, saying that the reforms are coordinated according to American whims…”

Arafat: “We are not Afghanistan…We are the Mighty People. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin al-Husseini? ... There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, whom they considered an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 war, and I was one of his troops.”

[Al Sharq al Awsat, a London Arabic daily, reprinted in the Palestinian daily Al Quds, Aug, 2, 2002]


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: alhusseini; arafat; israel; jerusalem; mufti; nazi
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-63 next last

1 posted on 08/05/2002 11:50:11 AM PDT by knighthawk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: dennisw; TopQuark; Alouette; OKCSubmariner; veronica; weikel; EU=4th Reich; BrooklynGOP; ...
In an interview this week Arafat called the Arab leader and Nazi ally, Hajj Amin Al Husseini, “our hero”. Arafat referred to “our hero Al Husseini" as a symbol of withstanding world pressure, having remained an Arab leader in spite of demands to have him replaced because of his Nazi ties.

Something the mainstream press won't tell you!

Middle East list

If people want on or off this list, please let me know.

2 posted on 08/05/2002 11:52:00 AM PDT by knighthawk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk; monkeyshine; ipaq2000; Lent; veronica; Sabramerican; beowolf; Nachum; BenF; angelo; ...
Some say this nazi Arab Husseini is an uncle of Arafat. He incited many riots against Jews before Israel was born.

 

 

 

Haj Amin al-Husseini

(1893-1974)

Appointed Mufti of Jerusalem by the British in 1921, Haj Amin al-Husseini was the most prominent Arab figure in Palestine during the Mandatory period. Al-Husseini was born in Jerusalem in 1893, and went on to serve in the Ottoman Army during World War I. Anti-British and anti-Jewish, the mufti was the key nationalist figure among Muslims in Palestine. Fearful that increased Jewish immigration to Palestine would damage Arab standing in the area, the mufti engineered the bloody riots against Jewish settlement in 1929 and 1936.

Al-Husseini's appointment as mufti was itself the subject of much controversy. The decision to grant al-Husseini the position was made by Herbert Samuel, the first high commissioner of Palestine. It was odd that Samuel, a British Jew, would appoint a man who would be responsible for so much unrest within the Mandatory area. Al-Husseini in fact had been sentenced to ten years in prison by the British for inciting riots in 1920. None of that sentence was served, as al-Husseini had fled to Transjordan, and was soon after amnestied by Samuel himself.

For his part, al-Husseini had used his influence to quiet additional disturbances in 1921. He assured Samuel that he would continue to maintain order, and it was with this understanding that the high commissioner granted him the position of mufti. In the following year, he was also appointed to lead the Supreme Muslim Council, expanding his already significant powers. Known later as the Grand Mufti, al-Husseini was able to establish himself as the preeminent Arab power in Palestine.

One of the mufti's most successful projects was the restoration of the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa mosque. With funds collected from India and various Arab states, the Dome was plated in gold. The impressive looks of the Dome greatly enhanced the status of Jerusalem in the eyes of Muslims throughout the world. Similarly, al-Husseini's own status as Mufti of Jerusalem increased his standing as an influential Arab leader.

The mufti was dismissed from his position following the riots of 1936. No longer able to stay in Palestine, he continued his extremist activities from abroad. During World War II, the mufti was involved in the mobilization of support for Germany among Muslims. In November 1941 the Mufti met with Hitler. Although he continued to be involved in politics, al-Husseini's influence gradually declined after the defeat of the Arab armies in 1948.


3 posted on 08/05/2002 11:56:21 AM PDT by dennisw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk


4 posted on 08/05/2002 11:58:25 AM PDT by Alouette
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: dennisw
The nazi Mufti Husseini and Hitler


5 posted on 08/05/2002 11:58:59 AM PDT by dennisw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk; Miss Marple
Interesting...

Time for Arafat to go join the Nazis on the dustbin of history, although that would be too good a place for him.
6 posted on 08/05/2002 12:10:07 PM PDT by hchutch
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
“We are not Afghanistan…We are the Mighty People....

Delusional little pipsqueek...

7 posted on 08/05/2002 12:16:40 PM PDT by My2Cents
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
No wonder Mein Kampf is a best seller on the West Bank & Gaza.
8 posted on 08/05/2002 12:20:01 PM PDT by Catspaw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dennisw
Some say this nazi Arab Husseini is an uncle of Arafat.

I believe this is nothing more than creative geneology on the part of Arafat.

9 posted on 08/05/2002 12:23:58 PM PDT by carton253
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
Bump to get this info out there.
10 posted on 08/05/2002 12:24:26 PM PDT by facedown
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
It is my understanding that Arafat is the Mufti's nephew. He doesn't talk about it a lot because he doesn't want people to know he was born in Egypt.

Hey, by-the-way, good to see you.

11 posted on 08/05/2002 12:26:59 PM PDT by KC Burke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dennisw; carton253
Some say this nazi Arab Husseini is an uncle of Arafat.

I believe this is nothing more than creative geneology on the part of Arafat.

I believe that this is the truth. I don't remember the source where I first saw it, but Arafag has something like 8 names, among which is "al-Husseini." He initially hid his association with the Grand Mufti, from what I read. Can anyone confirm this.

Regardless of his genetic bloodlines, Arafag's ideological bloodlines are clear and despicable. He may as well be the nephew of that Nazi-loving pig, as his actions would do such an uncle proud.

I look forward to the time when Arafag joins the Grand Mufti.

12 posted on 08/05/2002 12:30:24 PM PDT by Ancesthntr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Ancesthntr
Arafag has something like 8 names, among which is "al-Husseini."

While I can't comment on the specifics of this case, I do know that the al-Husseinis are a very large Middle Eastern clan, that have hundreds, if not thousands of members. Oddly enough, neither the late King Hussein (a Hashemite) nor Saddam Hussein (a peasant) are Husseinis. So its quite possible that Arafat has some ancestral ties to the Grand Mufti's family, but it seems unlikely that the two are closely related.

13 posted on 08/05/2002 12:36:38 PM PDT by andy_card
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
Was it not the Senator from NY who suggested America support Palestine and its evil plans?
Please correct if it began elsewhere.


14 posted on 08/05/2002 12:37:34 PM PDT by Diogenesis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ancesthntr
Al-Husseini is Arafat's last name...

The only time I have read that he is related to the Grand Mufti is when he is speaking of himself or PLO/PA propaganda.

But no matter... we may never know.

You have accurately stated the greater connection between the Mufti and Arafat when you said that his ideological bloodlines are clear and despicable. His actions would do his "uncle" proud.

15 posted on 08/05/2002 12:38:57 PM PDT by carton253
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.'"

16 posted on 08/05/2002 12:48:39 PM PDT by The Great Satan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: andy_card
I do know that the al-Husseinis are a very large Middle Eastern clan,
___________________

Correct sir! Palestinians are very clan oriented which has now been translated into mafia oriented. Clans and family are important. This is why razing the house of suicide bombers can be effective.
17 posted on 08/05/2002 12:56:59 PM PDT by dennisw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: dennisw
Clans and family are important. This is why razing the house of suicide bombers can be effective.

I disagree.

1. Razing houses angers the entire clan, regardless of whether they live there or not, politicizing large segments of the population, encouraging more young loonies to strap explosives to their chests to avenge the "wrongs" done to their people. Its a real Hatfield/McCoy situation.

2. It makes the Euros mad, without accomplishing much of anything. Believe it or not, international opinion is important, and Israel already has more than enough enemies as it is. An Israeli charm-offensive could be helpful in turning Yassir Arafat into the Pariah that he deserves to be.

18 posted on 08/05/2002 1:03:35 PM PDT by andy_card
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
In one of historian Paul Johnson's books (I beleive it was Modern Times) he speaks of one of Al Husseini's other, more long-lasting accomplishments. This was the systematic extermination of influential ARABS and BEDOUINS who today would be known as "moderate"; i.e. they were of the mind that Jew and Arab could live peacefully side-by side in the land of Palestine. He accomplished this in the period between the two world wars with little or no hindrance from the British. What this produced was an Arab population for the most part solidly behind the Mufti's goal to drive the Jews into the sea the instant that the British pulled out of Palestine after WWII.
19 posted on 08/05/2002 1:12:06 PM PDT by JG52blackman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: andy_card
1. The entire clan is likely already angry and involved if some of them are actual suicide bombers.
2. Any Palestinian that is not politicized would have to be deaf, blind, and hidden away from the decades of propaganda.
3. Making Europe mad is hardly a criterion for anything. I'd sooner look at Saddam Hussein for moral authority; at least he is consistent and honest about his nefarious goals.
4. Destruction of homes and expulsion to the Gaza is quite cost effective, and has yet to be tried...desperate times call for desperate measures.
20 posted on 08/05/2002 1:28:42 PM PDT by Lizard_King
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: andy_card
Good ideas but I don't agree. Making nice with Muslims just doesn't work. Their desire is to dominate. If they are unable to do this then they want to submit.
21 posted on 08/05/2002 1:29:40 PM PDT by dennisw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Lizard_King
But what I don't see is what good destroying homes does. It makes people angry, but what else? Killing or arresting terrorists makes a difference, but bulldozing a house? It just pisses folks off. It certainly won't prevent a suicidal crazy from walking into a bus station or a crowded nightclub.
22 posted on 08/05/2002 1:34:03 PM PDT by andy_card
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: dennisw
Making nice with Muslims just doesn't work. Their desire is to dominate. If they are unable to do this then they want to submit.

I have no problem with waging a swift and brutal war against the Palestinian terrorists. Fine. But bulldozing houses? That doesn't do sh*t.

23 posted on 08/05/2002 1:35:25 PM PDT by andy_card
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: andy_card
andy_card signed up 2002-07-12

That guy, what a card. :)
24 posted on 08/05/2002 1:37:48 PM PDT by anymouse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: andy_card
Good take and thanks!
25 posted on 08/05/2002 1:46:11 PM PDT by dennisw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: dennisw; knighthawk
"He(al-Husseini) assured Samuel that he would continue to maintain order, and it was with this understanding that the high commissioner granted him the position of mufti."

Well, the style is sure similar.

26 posted on 08/05/2002 2:05:35 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: dennisw

Nazi Eagle


Palestinian National Authority Eagle


27 posted on 08/05/2002 2:18:28 PM PDT by SJackson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: dennisw; knighthawk
This is the kind of thing that needs to be broadcast far and wide by every network. Despicable to say the least. But typical of duplicitous Arafat. Thanks for the ping.

Hitler and the Mufti

28 posted on 08/05/2002 2:20:41 PM PDT by agrace
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: carton253
Right, he's related when it's convenient. His full given name is Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al Qudua al Husseini. The fact that he may be related to the mufti (some say uncle, some say cousin, some say distantly, if at all) isn't what gets me the most. I find most disgusting the fact that he's not even native to "Palestine." He's Egyptian.

Good Arafat profile link - http://www.oslo-war.com/arafat_eng5.htm
29 posted on 08/05/2002 2:33:00 PM PDT by agrace
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: dennisw
Bump.
30 posted on 08/05/2002 2:37:31 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: PsyOps; colorado tanker; Libertina; Pissed Off Janitor; PsyOp; backhoe; happygrl; SJackson; ...
"the horror!" Ping...

This thread made me feel like I used to when I'd turn over a rotting log in some malarial swamp back home in Ohio...Except I just insulted invertebrate maggots everywhere!

The Religion of PEACE! WOW...

31 posted on 08/05/2002 5:59:39 PM PDT by sleavelessinseattle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: dennisw
In fact, that aformentioned sand nazi swine WAS the uncle of the sand nazi, His Swineness, Yasser Arafat.
32 posted on 08/05/2002 6:12:48 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SJackson
What a coincidence!
33 posted on 08/05/2002 6:13:40 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: My2Cents
Someone REALLY should tell him about the rule of holes.
When you find yourself in a hole stop digging.
34 posted on 08/05/2002 8:35:12 PM PDT by Valin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Diogenesis
I could say something about photo #2. But I've just got too much class.
< /ego>
35 posted on 08/05/2002 8:37:33 PM PDT by Valin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: dennisw
The Arafat's hero is the UN's hero, the hero of the United Nazies of all color and humane background.
36 posted on 08/06/2002 3:52:54 AM PDT by lavaroise
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: sleavelessinseattle
I've known Arafat as a terrorist & murderer since his bloody involvement in Lebanon's early civil war- like Jerry Adams of the IRA, you can dress him up, but what he really is resists spinning. Want more logs to turn over?

Jihad! Across the World....

The Web of Terror


Covering for Arafat the Killer
... it reached Khartoum, Cleo Noel and George Curtis Moore, our ambassador and charge
d'affaires, were murdered point blank by Black September, Arafat's hit men. ...
www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/janfeb01/killer.html - 6k - Cached -

 
CIA has tape of Arafat Ordering the Murder of Two American Diplomats

  WorldNetDaily: Will real Arafat be exposed?

LET'S TALK WAR CRIMES
... in the Saudi Embassy in Khartoum. They were killed by Black September, Arafat's gunmen,
after President Nixon refused to release Sirhan Sirhan, the Palestinian ...
www.netanyahu.org/lettalwarcri.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

USCFL - Frequently Asked Questions
... to move against King Hussein. That bloody day was known as Black September. Arafat
fled to the unsuspecting and friendly arms of the Lebanese people. Lebanon ...
freelebanon.org/faqs.htm - 55k - Cached - Similar pages

November 6, 2001
... from their own Arab brethren. Do you remember the consequences of "Black September",
Arafat's failed attempt to seize power from Jordan's King Hussein in 1970 ...
www.law.mcgill.ca/students/quid/11-06-01/11-06.html - 78k - Cached - Similar pages

THE CONTRIVED MYTHS: of SABRA & SHATILLA; WAR IN LEBANON;


37 posted on 08/06/2002 4:02:00 AM PDT by backhoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
I posted this article to Monodopolitico.com it is a site that has alot of communists post.I thought it would cause a stir here is the responce.

"ISRAEL MEDIA WATCH! AUG 5 ,2002....
The article you posted called Al Husseini a "Nazi ally". Simon Wiesenthal's web site said Husseini encouraged Hitler to extend the Final Solution. Arafat says that Husseini is "our hero". All this seems pretty damning to Arafat and by implication (through racial, religious and political generalizations) the entire population of Palestine and by even more generalizations Muslims everywhere.

Fortunately Al Husseini's history is not nearly as clear cut as Wiesenthal's web site would have you believe. The Jewish Virtual Library (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/mufti.html), who lists its sources as solely The Jewish Agency for Israel and The World Zionist Organization, surprisingly isn't nearly as damning of Al Husseini. They say that Husseeini was, "Appointed Mufti (*not even democratically elected mind you*-ed's note) of Jerusalem by the BRITISH in 1921" and "Fearful that increased Jewish immigration to Palestine would damage Arab standing in the area, the mufti engineered the bloody riots against Jewish settlement in 1929 and 1936."

The Zionist web sites don't mention however, that Husseini was right in thinking that increased Jewish immigration into Palestine (that continues as Israeli state policy to this day) would damage Arab standing in the area. In fact, today Arab's have almost no standing in most of the area he was referring to. I can post more on that later, but I've gotta pick up my firlfriend from work.

The BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/581109.stm) notes "Wiesenthal has concerned himself with not only tracing those privy to the planning of the Holocaust at its highest level, but also with bringing the smallest cogs of the Nazi machine to justice." But, if Wiesenthal and Palestinian Media Watch were really vigilant in this mission they would need to set their sights on American corporations and their boardmembers. In fact, Hitler enthusiastically applauded American mass-production techniques. He kept a life size portrait the American industrialst Henry Ford next to his desk and once declared, "I regard Henry Ford as my inspiration."

Hitler's admiration of Ford wasn't a one way street. In 1938, Ford accepted the highest medal that Nazi Germany could award a foreigner, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle. Likewise, Ford had a role in Nazi Germany's prewar military buildup. US Army Intelligence reported that the "real purpose" of the truck assembly plant opened in Berlin in 1938 was to produce "troop transport-type vehicles for the Wehrmacht (German military).

General Motors also had a plant in Nazi Germany. GM Chairman Alfred P. Sloan commented that the Nazis' behavior "should not be considered the business of the management of General Motors. We have no right to shut down that plant." German Ford was the second largest producer of trucks for the Nazi military. GM's plants built thousands of bomber and jet fighter propulsion systems for the Luftwaffe - while at the same time profiting from production of aircraft engines for the US Army Air Corps.

According to a 1974 report printed by the US Senate Judiciary Committee, "The outbreak of war in September 1939 resulted inevitably in the full conversion by GM and Ford of their Axis plants to the production of military aircraft and trucks. On the ground, GM and Ford subsidiaries built nearly 90 percent of the armored 'mule' 3-ton half-trucks and more than 70 percent of the Reich's medium and heavy-duty trucks. These vehicles, according to American intelligence reports, served as 'the backbone of the German Army transportation system.'"

Ford has now even admitted that it used slave labor from concentration camps at its factory in Nazi Germany, but didn't profit from it. The automaker released a report that concluded it did not "materially benefit" from the Ford-Werke factory in Cologne, Germany, which used labor from the Buchenwald concentration camp to build trucks and light armored vehicles. "The use of forced and slave labor in Germany, including at Ford-Werke, was wrong and cannot be justified," said John Rintamaki, Ford's chief of staff. The company didn't say how many camp inmates worked there.

A Washington legal firm has compiled a list of a further 100 American corporations - identified by records culled from the FBI and the United States Treasury department - as having traded with the Nazi regime in 1941, just as America entered the Second World War. They include leading industrial and chemical companies and some of the top names in US banking.

I'm not a fan of Al Husseini. I think he probably supported Hitler. But his moral support was no where near as destructive to the Jews in Germany or the American soldiers who were fighting Germans armed by American corporations. The intent of the article that was posted was to add disrepute to the Palestinians and to Muslims worldwide by racial, ethnic, and political prejudice.
38 posted on 08/06/2002 6:32:42 AM PDT by freeforall
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: freeforall
The thing is these people try to play it down, but no matter how they turn and twist, the Mufti still wanted to kill all the Jews in the area, he wanted to use Hitler to do it, and Arafat still is seeing him as a hero.

So what is wrong with the article?

This guy even says he is somewhat right about the Mufti thinking about the Jewish immigration, while 'forgetting to mention' that Jews lived in that area long before Arabs did. Well, since Arabs came came there since 635 AD and Jews well before 1300 BC, he only 'forgets only to mention' 2000 years of history.

"(*not even democratically elected mind you*-ed's note)"

And since when do muslims in that area democraticly appoint people?

And what he is saying is very dangerous.

"The Zionist web sites don't mention however, that Husseini was right in thinking that increased Jewish immigration into Palestine (that continues as Israeli state policy to this day) would damage Arab standing in the area"

So according to his views, the nazis where right in their thinking to kill off Jews, because Jews 'damaged the German standing in the area because of them immigrating to Germany'.

And a lot of people think immigration of muslims to the Netherland is damaging to the area, but does that justify us thinking to kill them off?

This guy is trying to divert attention to the facts mentioned in the article. The bottem line is still that Arafat sees the Mufti, an ally of Hitler and a Jew-hater, as a hero.
39 posted on 08/06/2002 8:41:33 AM PDT by knighthawk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: andy_card
"But what I don't see is what good destroying homes does. It makes people angry, but what else?"

The same thing was said about Area bombing during WWII. It made Germans angry at first and steeled their resolve. Then, eventually, it demoralized them. Then it made even some of the more ardent nazis realize how futile the war effort was. Then we won.
40 posted on 08/06/2002 11:56:56 AM PDT by PsyOp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: andy_card
see post #40.
41 posted on 08/06/2002 11:57:59 AM PDT by PsyOp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: sleavelessinseattle
Those poor maggots! You should be ashamed of yourself for insulting them so egregiously!

Acutually, Muslim cooperation with the Nazi's was very widespread, extending from North Africa to the Balkans. When people refer to Arabs, and the Palestinians in particular, they are closer to the truth than they realize.
42 posted on 08/06/2002 12:06:47 PM PDT by PsyOp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
He also forgets that the Ford and GM plants in Germany were built under license before the war, and that when the war began, they became the property of the German goverment and run by the Nazi.

The idiot makes it sound like Frod and GM execs here in the US were running those plants in Germany and bringing profits home throughout the war - which is not the case.

Ford also built a truck plant in the soviet union during the war, Under license. After the Nazis were defeated and the Cold War flared up, royalty payment to Ford were stopped and the Russians continued to make Ford trucks in a Ford built factory under a slightly different name (one that still fit in the blue oval). It was the same thing in Germany.
43 posted on 08/06/2002 12:18:52 PM PDT by PsyOp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: PsyOp
The same thing was said about Area bombing during WWII. It made Germans angry at first and steeled their resolve. Then, eventually, it demoralized them. Then it made even some of the more ardent nazis realize how futile the war effort was. Then we won.

I disagree. While there may be some reason to believe that strategic bombing hurt German morale (and even that is highly controversial), its pretty clear that, had the same resources gone into tactical bombing or even artillery, the war would have ended earlier, and Allied lives would have been saved. There's an oft quoted statistic that more British airmen lost their lives dropping bombs on occupied Europe, than Germans died having bombs dropped on them by the Brits.

Likewise, regardless of whether buldozing homes steels Palestinian morale or lowers it, its clearly not the most effective use of limited Israeli resources.

44 posted on 08/06/2002 12:21:17 PM PDT by andy_card
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: andy_card
You can disagree all you want, and the only people its controversial to are people who weren't in Germany. Read any memoir of the war written by a German who fought at that time and you will hear the same sentiment expressed. Both Speers and Geobells diaries admit this fact as well. It only becomes controversial when people are trying to disavow how effective it was.

As for the casualties, the British are the ones who engaged in area bombing (at night) while the Americans attemtped precision bombing (by day). The Americans suffered far higher casualties than the British. Many senior American officers considered the area bombing of civilian structures barbaric and justified their higher casualties on that basis.

Speer, who was in charge of Germany's industrial production moved most of it underground, and by late '44 Germany's industrial output actually tripled, in spite of two years of daylight bombing campaigns against military targets. What Speer could not do was protect German workers. He describes the severe effect that the loss of their homes had on his workers mentally and physically. It also demoralized the troops at the front, and great pains were taken to keep the extent of the damage at home from them.

In addition to demoralizing German workers and soldiers, bombing their homes affected the productivity of the workers themselves, depriving them of, among other things, sleep and peace of mind. That, according to Speer, did more to harm German industrial productivity than the bombing of the factories did.
45 posted on 08/06/2002 4:10:05 PM PDT by PsyOp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: PsyOp
Could you site me a source for this.

"Ford and GM plants in Germany were built under license before the war, and that when the war began, they became the property of the German goverment and run by the Nazi."

I am sure the commie I am debating will demand it.

46 posted on 08/06/2002 5:43:37 PM PDT by freeforall
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk
The commie replys;
Ahh.. Another post hoping its readers won't dig deeper.
You are right that my post did not dispute Husseini's connection to Hitler. However, your evidence (the meeting notes) are by no means proof of Husseini's unquestioning support. They merely note that Hitler ASKED for the Mufti's support. My claim was that Husseini's relationship with Hitler was less substantial/detrimental to Jews than the relationship American businessmen had with Hitler.

"You say he is somewhat right about the Mufti's views about the Jewish immigration, while 'forgetting to mention' that
Jews lived in that area long before Arabs did. Well, since the Arabs have been there since 635 AD and Jews well before 1300 BC"

Prior to 635AD the area of Israel and Palestine was ruled not by Jews, but by the Sassanian Empire (whose official religion was Zoroastrianism not Judaism). They had taken the land from the Roman Empire. Surveys of the area by the Ottoman Empire 1878 showed that there were 462,465 subject inhabitants of the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts: 403,795 Muslims (including Druze), 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews. In addition, there were perhaps 10,000 Jews with foreign citizenship (recent immigrants to the country), and several thousand Muslim Arab nomads (bedouin) who were not counted as Ottoman subjects. By the outbreak of World War I (1914), the population of Jews in Palestine had risen to about 60,000, about 33,000 of whom were recent settlers. The Arab population in 1914 was 683,000.

Your claim that Jews lived in Palestine 2000 years prior to Arabs and thus have more right to the land is interesting. Native Americans have lived in Canada and the US since thousands of years before 1300BC while Europeans have only lived here since 1492AD. So are you suggesting Native Americans should be permitted to take the same liberties with the non-indigenous populations as the state of Israel does? To set curfews on Canadians, hold hundreds of thousands of them without trial or conviction of a crime, torture them, force them from the land they've lived on for over 1300 (oops Europeans have only been in Canada for slightly more than 400 years) years, and eliminate their political rights?

Do you believe Canada and the US should be given back to the Native Americans (or taken back with force)?

In response to Husseini's uproar against Jewish immigration you pose the question:

"Why would immigration cause such an uproar?
As a Canadian we welcome immigrants why counldn't the arabs of transjordan?"

The Zionist movement began in 1882 with the first wave of European Jewish immigration to Palestine. The World Zionist Organization, established by Theodor Herzl in 1897, declared that the aim of Zionism was to establish "a national home for the Jewish people secured by public law." A second form of Zionism was the Revisionist movement led by Vladimir Jabotinsky. They earned the name "Revisionist" because they wanted to revise the boundaries of Jewish territorial aspirations and claims beyond Palestine to include areas east of the Jordan River. In the 1920s and 1930s, they differed from Labor Zionists by declaring openly the objective to establish a Jewish state (rather than the vaguer formula of a "national home") in Palestine. And they believed that armed force would be required to establish such a state. Thus, immigration of European Jews into Palestine became the source of Arab "uproar." Not because they disliked Jews, as they had been living with Jews ever since 635AD, but because they knew the Zionist immigrants intended to take over their land.

Immigrants to Canada are not a threat to Canada's control of the land. And when they do become a threat (not even to sovreignty but to profits) Canada responds. In April, Citizenship and Immigration Canada announced that it is backing out of its policy which allowed Algerians residing in Canada without legal status to remain in the country for their own safety. As a result, hundreds of Algerian refugees residing in Canada will be deported within the next six months. While the Canadian government claims that the deportees will be safe in Algeria, it advises Canadian citizens against traveling there, warning of "continuous terrorist activity." Human rights organizations widely regard the situation in Algeria to be dangerous, leading many to question the real motives behind the deportations: a visit to Algeria by Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien in the name of NEPAD has $1 billion in trade implications, and a $141 million deal between Canadian company SNC Lavalin and the Goverment of Algeria to build water-supply infrastructure was officially announced shortly afterward.

In the "free" US, Attorney General John Ashcroft has expanded the power of the Immigration and Naturalization Service to detain immigrants. Authorities can now keep detainees behind bars even after a federal immigration judge has ordered the individual released for lack of evidence. According to the latest figures released by the Justice Department, more than 1,100 immigrants have been rounded up and detained by the US government. Unfortunately in December of 2001, having come under criticism for refusing to release the identities of the detainees, where they were being held, and what charges, if any, had been brought against them, Ashcroft announced that the government would simply suspend giving out any figures on the detainment.

Israel itself has been more than anti-immigrant, it has even caused the exodus of many of the Arabs who had been living on the land it annexed. On November 29, 1947, the UN General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish and the other Arab. The UN partition plan divided the country in such a way that each state would have a majority of its own population, although some Jewish settlements would fall within the proposed Palestinian state and many Palestinians would become part of the proposed Jewish state. The territory designated to the Jewish state would be slightly larger than the Palestinian state (56 percent and 43 percent of Palestine, respectively) on the assumption that increasing numbers of Jews would immigrate there. According to the UN partition plan, the area of Jerusalem and Bethlehem was to become an international zone. Fighting began between the Arab and Jewish residents of Palestine days after the adoption of the UN partition plan. In 1949, the war between Israel and the Arab states ended with the signing of armistice agreements. The State of Israel now encompassed over 77 percent of the Palestine territory. As a consequence of the fighting in Palestine between 1947 and 1949, over 700,000 Arabs living in the land Israel claimed became refugees. Israeli military intelligence indicates that at least 75 percent of the refugees left due to Zionist or Israeli military actions, psychological campaigns aimed at frightening Arabs into leaving, and direct expulsions.

On June 5, 1967 Israel preemptively attacked Egypt and Syria, destroying their air forces on the ground within a few hours. Jordan joined in the fighting belatedly, and consequently was attacked by Israel as well. The Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian armies were decisively defeated, and Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan, the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, and the Golan Heights from Syria

Israel established a military administration to govern the Palestinian residents of the occupied West Bank and Gaza. Under this arrangement, Palestinians were denied many basic political rights and civil liberties, including freedom of expression, freedom of the press and freedom of political association.

After the 1967 war, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 242, which notes the "inadmissability of the acquisition of territory by force," and calls for Israeli withdrawal from lands seized in the war and the right of all states in the area to peaceful existence within secure and recognized boundaries. The grammatical construction of the French version of Resolution 242 says Israel should withdraw from "the territories," whereas the English version of the text calls for withdrawal from "territories." (Both English and French are official languages of the UN.) Israel and the United States use the English version to argue that Israeli withdrawal from some, but not all, the territory occupied in the 1967 war satisfies the requirements of this resolution.

Since 1967, Israel has built hundreds of settlements and permitted hundreds of thousands of its own Jewish citizens to move to the West Bank and Gaza, despite that this constitutes a breach of international law. Israel has justified the violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and other international laws governing military occupation of foreign territory on the grounds that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are not technically "occupied" because they were never part of the sovereign territory of any state. Therefore, according to this interpretation, Israel is not a foreign "occupier" but a legal "administrator" of territory whose status remains to be determined.

The Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles (the Oslo Accords) was signed in Washington in September 1993. The Declaration of Principles established that Israel would withdraw from the Gaza Strip and Jericho, with additional withdrawals from further unspecified areas of the West Bank during a five-year interim period.
The Oslo accords set up a negotiating process without specifying an outcome. The process was supposed to have been completed by May 1999.
During the protracted interim period of the Oslo process, Israel's Labor and Likud governments built new settlements in the occupied territories, expanded existing settlements and constructed a network of bypass roads to enable Israeli settlers to travel from their settlements to Israel proper without passing through Palestinian-inhabited areas. These projects were understood by most Palestinians as marking out territory that Israel sought to annex in the final settlement. The Oslo accords contained no mechanism to block these unilateral actions or Israel's violations of Palestinian human and civil rights in areas under its control.

In July 2000, President Clinton invited Prime Minister Barak and President Arafat to Camp David to conclude negotiations on the long-overdue final status agreement. Barak proclaimed his "red lines": Israel would not return to its pre-1967 borders; East Jerusalem with its 175,000 Jewish settlers would remain under Israeli sovereignty; Israel would annex settlement blocs in the West Bank containing some 80 percent of the 180,000 Jewish settlers; and Israel would accept no legal or moral responsibility for the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem. The Palestinians, in accord with UN Security Council resolution 242 and their understanding of the spirit of the Oslo Declaration of Principles, sought Israeli withdrawal from the vast majority of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, including East Jerusalem, and recognition of an independent state in those territories.

As for Ford and GM plants becoming German property when the war began, this is only partially correct. As I quoted previously a 1974 report printed by the US Senate Judiciary Committee stated, "The outbreak of war in September 1939 resulted inevitably in the full conversion BY GM and Ford of THEIR Axis plants to the production of military aircraft and trucks. On the ground, GM and Ford subsidiaries built nearly 90 percent of the armored 'mule' 3-ton half-trucks and more than 70 percent of the Reich's medium and heavy-duty trucks. These vehicles, according to American intelligence reports, served as 'the backbone of the German Army transportation system.'" Ford lost control of it's Werke plant in Cologne, which used slave labor from the Buchenwald concentration camp WHILE Ford controlled it, after the US entered the war in 1941, when the Nazi government seized the factory's assets (Not when WWII began in 1939). The same is true of the GM plant in Berlin. It was while these factories were controlled by US businessmen that they manufactured war machines for the German Army. Henry Ford accepted the Grand Cross of the German Eagle in 1938, five years after Hitler's passing of Anti-semitism laws and three years after the Nuremberg Race laws.

You speak as if license to build plants alleviates moral responsibility for the management of them. Slave labor, Jewish slave labor, should not have been used by American businessmen to build German weapons. This doesn't mean Americans in general should be ostracized. Al Husseini shouldn't have been in a meeting with Hitler. Likewise, This doesn't mean Palestinians in general should be ostracized. Period. Enough for this evening.


-For liberation.
47 posted on 08/06/2002 7:38:02 PM PDT by freeforall
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: knighthawk; dennisw
1. The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini was later the notorious Nazi who mixed Nazi propaganda and Islam. He was wanted for war crimes and the slaughter of Jews in Bosnia by Yugoslavia. His mix of militant propagandizing Islam was an inspriation for both Yasser Arafat and Saddam Hussein: He was also a close relative of Yasser Arafat and grandfather of the current Temple Mount Mufti. "Arafat's actual name was Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husseini. He shortened it to obscure his kinship with the notorious Nazi and ex-Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini." Howard M. Sachar, A HISTORY OF ISRAEL (New York: Knopf, 1976). The Bet Agron International Center in Jerusalem interviewed Arafat's brother and sister, who described the Mufti as a cousin (family member) with tremendous influence on young Yassir after the Mufti returned from Berlin to Cairo. Yasser Arafat himself keeps his exact lineage and birthplace secret. Saddam Hussein was raised in the house of his uncle Khayrallah Tulfah, who was a leader in the Mufti's pro-Nazi coup in Iraq in May 1941.
48 posted on 08/06/2002 7:52:13 PM PDT by PhilDragoo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: freeforall
He is beating around the bush again to promote his commie views. My claim was that Husseini's relationship with Hitler was less substantial/detrimental to Jews than the relationship American businessmen had with Hitler.

What does that all have to do with the story? The Mufti admired what Hitler did to the Jews, unlike Ford. The story is about what the Mufti thought and how Arafat looks at him.

Tell the commie that Stalin, his great leader, made a deal with Hitler and therefor in his views we need to treat the commies as bad as he wants to treat Ford. Thanks to that deal Hitler could start invading Europe, so in his view, thanks to Stalin the Jews could be massacred. The Stalin-deal did far more damage that anything he can come up with.

He won't like that and will come up with lengthy stuff or try to dodge it by saying it's irrelevant to the discussion.

49 posted on 08/06/2002 8:21:05 PM PDT by knighthawk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: freeforall
Unfortunately I cannot give you a specific source for this information. I know it to be fact though. From a logical standpoint alone, do you think the Germans in control of that plant or the German government was still making their payments to Ford or GM after declaring war on us? Can anybody believe (except a tin-hatted conspiracy theorist) that execs here in the states were in contact with thier German counter-parts by phone, even, on a daily basis while the war raged?

Whether the plant was wholly owned or built under license, once the shooting started, that was it.

Another fact that bears on this is the point that was made concerning all these "trucks" that supposedly helped the Germans carry out their blitzkriegs. The German army, except for the Mechanized Spearheads, was primarily horse-drawn. On the Russian front, for example, the Armor often had to lager for days waiting for the infantry and horse drawn artillery to catch up. There are a number of great book that explode the myth of the extent of the German army's mechanization - much of which was myth propagated by Goebbels to scare Germany's enemies. That is why there was such a lull between the attack on Poland and France. The Germans had neither the fuel nor transport to carry on sustained mechanized operations. Blitzkrieg was a neccessity. Troops, even German troops used to 30 miles a day, need time to rest and recoup.

The dearth of motor transport was such that captured trucks were considered a great prize. France and the low-countries were stripped of almost all rolling transport (civilian and military) to support the war effort in Africa and Russia. Captured tanks, too, were used by the germans (there were quite a few T-34's and captured French tanks prowling the steppes with black crosses on them).

Now that I have been going on about this, I believe that the details I gave on the Ford and GM plants came from Speer's diaries. One of these plants was converted to Aircraft production, I think.
50 posted on 08/07/2002 9:55:42 AM PDT by PsyOp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-63 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson