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CHILD PORNOGRAPHY RING ARRESTED
Associated Press .. breaking on the wire | August 9, 2002 | Connie Cass (AP)

Posted on 08/09/2002 8:59:43 AM PDT by NYer

WASHINGTON (AP) _ Ten Americans and six foreigners were charged Friday with taking sexually explicit photographs of their own children or children in their care and sending them over the Internet to an international child pornography ring, the U.S. Customs Service said.

Forty-five children, including 37 in the United States, were victims and have been removed from the care of those indicted, Customs officials said. Most of them are in the custody of another parent or relative.

The defendants include nine people from seven states who were indicted in Fresno, Calif., along with six residents of Denmark, Switzerland and the Netherlands. The indictment alleges that members of the ring, referring to themselves as ``the club,'' traded messages across the Internet requesting photographs of specific sexual poses. One man asked for an audiotape so he could hear a child crying while being spanked, the indictment said, and another posed naked with an underage girl.

The Customs Service coordinated the U.S. investigation that began last November with a request for help from the Danish National Police, who were acting on a tip about an international child pornography ring. ``I congratulate the investigators whose ingenuity and perseverance brought these people to justice,'' Customs Commissioner Robert C. Bonner said in a statement.

The Americans charged include: Lloyd Alan Emmerson of Fresno County, Calif.; Paul Whitmore and Brooke Rowland, San Diego County, Calif.; Tracy Reynolds, Texas; Leslie Peter Bowcut, Idaho; Michael David Harland, Florida; Harry Eldon Tschernetzki, Washington state; John Zill, South Carolina; Craig Davidson, Kansas. The identity of the tenth American was not immediately available.

The foreigners were identified as Eggert Jensen and Bente Jensen of Denmark; Jean-Michael Frances Cattin, Marcel Egli and Peter Althaus of Switzerland; and Dirk-Jan Prins of the Netherlands.

On the Net: Customs Service: http://www.customs.ustreas.gov

AP-ES-08-09-02 1114EDT


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: California; US: Idaho; US: Kansas; US: South Carolina; US: Texas; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: childabuse; eurotrash; interpol; pornography; uscustoms
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A government success story.
1 posted on 08/09/2002 8:59:43 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Death for this scum. Please....
2 posted on 08/09/2002 9:01:41 AM PDT by eureka!
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To: NYer
How could parents do that to their own kids? Lock 'em up and throw away the key.
3 posted on 08/09/2002 9:02:59 AM PDT by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: NYer
What are the penalties if convicted? this is absolutely despicable that people would use thier own children for their own purient lusts.These folks should be locked up, sterilized and throw the key away!
4 posted on 08/09/2002 9:03:51 AM PDT by lexington minuteman 1775
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To: NYer
I'd be willing to bet that the Euros get very light sentances or get off completely.

They don't take this sort of thing very seriously over there. They probably only investigated at all because of US pressure.
5 posted on 08/09/2002 9:06:24 AM PDT by stalin
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To: lexington minuteman 1775
These folks should be locked up, sterilized and throw the key away!

Yeah, but make sure they are in the general prison population. It's the most fitting punishment I can think of.

6 posted on 08/09/2002 9:11:47 AM PDT by Charles Martel
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To: NYer
The Americans charged include: Lloyd Alan Emmerson of Fresno County, Calif

How could such a thing happen in Fresno? Other perps in San Diego. I wonder if there's a Fresno/San Diego connection?

7 posted on 08/09/2002 9:17:00 AM PDT by Defiant
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To: NYer
I recently participated in a discussion on a gaming forum where this topic was covered in context of "homophobia". The participants in that forum are mostly in 20 and younger although there are a number of older folk as well - and I must admit I was mortified at the general attitude expressed in that conversation.

For example - the question was put forward "if homosexuality is correct and the only thing that seperates it from other supposedly deviant acts is the term 'informed consent' or just 'consent' then who's to say anything else is wrong."

Well - you think the answer to that would be obvious but there were a number of the kids in that forum who were seriously accepting that if it could be demonstrated that "kids" were consenting it would therefore be OK. There were those in the forum who responded with great offense at such positions but they were eventually ignored into silence.

So I put the question out for my fellow freepers to discuss: If informed consent can be demonstrated do you think that "child porn" and "pedophilia" should be viewed differently? After all - I have seen plenty of articles and papers in the past couple of years stating that very thing.

Part of the reason I ask this is these people obviously found it within themselves to justify sexually abusing their own children - did they believe it was wrong? Were they ashamed? Or are we repressing the possibility that such behavior is consentual in nature?

Let me be clear - I find pedophilia and child pornography immoral to the nth degree... in fact - there are no degress of separation. I find pornography of any kind immoral - but that's a different discussion entirely. I mention this, however, to make it clear that I'm not trying to defend anyone.

My whole premise in the question is that we've so brazenly accepted what was considered to be previously be deviant sexual behavior and made it normal - why not child/adult sexual encounters?

Lastly - let us remember - just as homosexuality has been practiced historically and always has been - child/adult sexual encounters are nothing new in supposed advanced/historical cultures and so have other so-called "deviant" sexual practices. Is it not possible that we should rethink our views on other behaviors just as we have on homosexuality?

8 posted on 08/09/2002 9:22:02 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: Charles Martel
well i agree. But they always isolate them because they would be killed in general prison population.But i see that as a great deterrent dont you?BWHAHAHAHHAHA!
9 posted on 08/09/2002 9:22:02 AM PDT by lexington minuteman 1775
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To: NYer; UCANSEE2
Brooke Rowland, 40, of Poway is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday on similar charges involving five children. He is being held on $1 million bail. San Diego District Attorney Paul Pfingst said Whitmore, a child and family counselor, allowed Rowland to abuse one of the girls he allegedly molested. ``They're exchanging kids,'' Pfingst said. Prosecutors said the two men were part of a child pornography ring in which they exchanged pictures and video of themselves molesting girls to other Internet users.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/2717378.htm

And David Westerfield is on trial for the murder of Brenda VanDam. I think they got the wrong man.

UCANSEE2 I know you are familiar with this, so wanted to ping you.

10 posted on 08/09/2002 9:23:51 AM PDT by Spunky
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To: Frapster
I would like to see the pictures and have the addresses of these vile fiends.
11 posted on 08/09/2002 9:24:11 AM PDT by MotherSpector
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To: Frapster
If informed consent can be demonstrated do you think that "child porn" and "pedophilia" should be viewed differently?

I'm going to be scorned, reviled and demonized by people who will stop reading after a certain point, but I'll say yes -- it should be viewed differently if informed consent can be demonstrated. I'll also state that I don't believe it possible to demonstrate informed consent because I don't believe that it can ever occur in such a situation.
12 posted on 08/09/2002 9:28:03 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: MotherSpector
But that's entirely my point MotherSpector - in my conversation with these people on this other forum the did NOT share the view you and I take on such reprehensible behavior. And what really bothers me is that we are slowly losing ground and a major issue but seem to be going quietly into the night.

In our "tolerance" and open-mindedness are we breeding a generation/s of future law-makers and "setters of the social norm" that will completely make todays views of sexual behavior look as restrictive as the "religiou and restive" views of the 50's and earlier look now?

I really creep out at what kind of society my children and grandchildren are growing up in and will live in in the next 20+ years.

13 posted on 08/09/2002 9:30:27 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: Frapster
The danger from acceptance of the homosexual argument is clear. Convince everyone that homosexuality is OK and soon everything is OK.

We used to put homosexuals in Jail. We need to do that again.
14 posted on 08/09/2002 9:31:22 AM PDT by Khepera
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To: Khepera
We used to put homosexuals in Jail.

With what would you charge them? How would you find them?
15 posted on 08/09/2002 9:33:42 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
I'm going to be scorned, reviled and demonized by people who will stop reading after a certain point, but I'll say yes -- it should be viewed differently if informed consent can be demonstrated. I'll also state that I don't believe it possible to demonstrate informed consent because I don't believe that it can ever occur in such a situation.

I think you're being naieve about it - when sexual activity stops being goverened by moral rules but instead by social norms we can rationalize anything. We are already doing it and people are already asserting that sexual encounters with adults was not only NOT harmful but clearly beneficial for their social development.

16 posted on 08/09/2002 9:33:51 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: NYer
Update: Fresno man indicted in pornography ring


(Published Friday, August 9, 2002, 9:20 AM)


Clovis chiropractor Lloyd Alan Emmerson, indicted in February on federal charges that he sent photos over the Internet of children engaged in sexually explicit acts, is part of an international child pornography ring that U.S. officials cracked down on today.

Ten Americans, including Emmerson, 45, and six foreigners were charged today with taking sexually explicit photographs of their own children or children in their care and sending them over the Internet to an international child pornography ring, the U.S. Customs Service said.

Clovis police, who have led the local investigation, said families may have had their pictures taken in Emmerson's offices in Fresno or Visalia, but it is also possible "their children may have had separate pictures taken without their knowledge."

Emmerson pleaded innocent in February to the two-count felony indictment of committing sexual exploitation of children and receiving and distributing material involving the sexual exploitation of minors. Clovis investigators said in May that ongoing checks of Emmerson's computer continued to reveal images of children they were attempting to identify.

After his arrest by Clovis police officers, Emmerson allegedly admitted sending photos over the Internet, according to court documents.

Clovis police detective John Weaver said in an affidavit that the investigation involved U.S. Customs agents and Danish police and had led to arrests of several people in Europe.

Forty-five children, including 37 in the United States, were victims and have been removed from the care of those indicted, Customs officials said. Most of them are in the custody of another parent or relative.

Customs officials made today's announcement in Washington, D.C., after indictments were unsealed in the Fresno federal courthouse. A press conference in Fresno is scheduled for 10 a.m.

The new indictment alleges that members of the ring, referring to themselves as "the club," traded messages across the Internet requesting photographs of specific sexual poses. One man asked for an audiotape so he could hear a child crying while being spanked, the indictment said, and another posed naked with an underage girl.

The Customs Service coordinated the U.S. investigation that began last November with a request for help from the Danish National Police, who were acting on a tip about an international child pornography ring.

"I congratulate the investigators whose ingenuity and perseverance brought these people to justice," Customs Commissioner Robert C. Bonner said in a statement.

The Americans charged include: Emmerson; Paul Whitmore and Brooke Rowland, San Diego County; Tracy Reynolds, Texas; Leslie Peter Bowcut, Idaho; Michael David Harland, Florida; Harry Eldon Tschernetzki, Washington state; John Zill, South Carolina; Craig Davidson, Kansas. The identity of the 10th American was not immediately available.

The foreigners were identified as Eggert Jensen and Bente Jensen of Denmark; Jean-Michael Frances Cattin, Marcel Egli and Peter Althaus of Switzerland; and Dirk-Jan Prins of the Netherlands.


17 posted on 08/09/2002 9:33:54 AM PDT by Catspaw
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To: NYer

18 posted on 08/09/2002 9:34:53 AM PDT by aomagrat
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To: Dimensio
Charge them for devient acts just like we used to do.
Find them in public restrooms and parks just like we do already.
19 posted on 08/09/2002 9:35:37 AM PDT by Khepera
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To: Frapster
We are already doing it and people are already asserting that sexual encounters with adults was not only NOT harmful but clearly beneficial for their social development.

I've heard those assertions, and I don't buy them.

I don't care much for comparisons between the "wrongness" of homosexuality and the "wrongness" of adult-child sex. I think that arguments in favour of adult-child sex are easily demolished on their own, and I think that if you cannot think of criteria for denouncing adult-child sex without appealing to some alleged "wrongness" of homosexuality then you've not thought things through.
20 posted on 08/09/2002 9:39:23 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Frapster
Is it not possible that we should rethink our views on other behaviors just as we have on homosexuality?

That is exactly what the perverse among the population are counting on.

21 posted on 08/09/2002 9:40:35 AM PDT by lsee
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To: Khepera
Charge them for devient acts just like we used to do.

What about the ones who aren't engaging in any "deviant" acts (as in, they're not engaging in sexual activity, since I know you define it all as "deviant"). Would you propose a federal law, or just relay on state laws?

Find them in public restrooms and parks just like we do already.

And the ones who don't hang out in such places?
22 posted on 08/09/2002 9:41:52 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: aomagrat
Isn't that a little inappropriate? Where are the razor blades or the rubber hoses? That doesn't look like they'd suffer for even a few minutes -- they'd be gone and it would be all over.
23 posted on 08/09/2002 9:42:57 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Catspaw
A Chiropractor.. when you start out a fraud there's nowhere to go but down.
24 posted on 08/09/2002 9:43:18 AM PDT by HalfIrish
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To: lexington minuteman 1775
...they always isolate them because they would be killed in general prison population.But i see that as a great deterrent...

Yes, that would be one heck of a deterrent; especially the things that would happen to them *before* they are finally killed.

25 posted on 08/09/2002 9:43:49 AM PDT by Charles Martel
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To: Dimensio
I don't care much for comparisons between the "wrongness" of homosexuality and the "wrongness" of adult-child sex. I think that arguments in favour of adult-child sex are easily demolished on their own, and I think that if you cannot think of criteria for denouncing adult-child sex without appealing to some alleged "wrongness" of homosexuality then you've not thought things through.

I think it would be that obvious too - but apparently it's not. Of course the same thing was said of homosexuality not 20 or 30 years ago.

26 posted on 08/09/2002 9:45:05 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: NYer
"The identity of the tenth American was not immediately available."

Hmmmm.....Bill Clinton?

27 posted on 08/09/2002 9:46:43 AM PDT by sweetliberty
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To: Dimensio
What do you think?
28 posted on 08/09/2002 9:48:39 AM PDT by Khepera
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To: lexington minuteman 1775
"this is absolutely despicable that people would use thier own children for their own purient lusts"

More likely it is money that they lust for, and not children. Of course, given the shameless disregard they have for their own children, if that is the case it is just as bad.

29 posted on 08/09/2002 9:49:15 AM PDT by sweetliberty
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To: Frapster
So I put the question out for my fellow freepers to discuss: If informed consent can be demonstrated do you think that "child porn" and "pedophilia" should be viewed differently? After all - I have seen plenty of articles and papers in the past couple of years stating that very thing.

Let's be clear on the underlying assumption of this question: in and of themselves, the acts are never wrong.

Instead, acts are wrong or not, based on the context in which they're performed.

In other words, it's moral relativism.

Perhaps a better question might be: "is there any action that is intrinsically wrong?"

30 posted on 08/09/2002 9:51:36 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: NYer
I wonder how long it takes before some dim-wit starts defending child porngraphy as free speech.
31 posted on 08/09/2002 9:51:48 AM PDT by afuturegovernor
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To: Charles Martel
"make sure they are in the general prison population"

Problem with that is that all they have to do is to say that they fear for their lives and they will be removed from the general population, just like they did with Avila. It is well known that even prisoners have utter contempt for those that sexually abuse children.

32 posted on 08/09/2002 9:52:01 AM PDT by sweetliberty
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To: Frapster
Well, okay.

Why is adult-child sex wrong? I'm speaking of children <12 and adults >18 (not that I think that sex with a fourteen-year old is "acceptable" by any means, but I'm trying to stay within the context of these arrests, which I assume involved very young children).

Why is homosexuality wrong? Be specific, don't offer what "some" or "many" homosexuals do. Explain exactly why two people of the same gender engaging in sexual activity of any kind is "wrong" no matter the circumstances.

I should hope that your answers are significantly different.
33 posted on 08/09/2002 9:54:06 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: r9etb
Perhaps a better question might be: "is there any action that is intrinsically wrong?"

You've hit the nail on the head - why is pedophilia wrong if homosexuality is right - particularly if 'informed consent' and be demonstrated in both? I always get "the difference is obvious" argument but no one explains why it's so obvious. From my perspective it's obvious why homosexuality is wrong but when I offer up my reasons they are discounted because they are a) religious in nature, b) suspect in their origins, c) refuted by other studies that demonstrate my studies just wrong because their study supports their point of view and mine's just obviously wrong.

34 posted on 08/09/2002 9:55:46 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: Dimensio
I think that arguments in favour of adult-child sex are easily demolished on their own.

But they're not. You've already noted some of them, even if you "don't buy them." Note that "demolition of arguments" requires you first to engage yourself in what amounts to a reasoned debate with pedophiles.

If some judge ruled solely on the basis of the arguments, you'd lose the general argument on the grounds of "informed consent," and also historical and cultural precedent. You would be reduced to arguing whether this or that child was capable of informed consent, and perhaps what protections must be afforded to children who are adjudged to be capable.

But of course, there's more to it than reasoned argument: it's wrong, and we both know it. Pedophiles are monsters who deserve to be severely punished.

Next we get to child pornography. Once again we're faced with the informed consent problem, and now must contend also with questions of "artistic merit;" whether it's really porn; and whether it's merely a "thought crime" (and thus supposedly unprosecutable) to be viewing and getting off on it.

But once again, we both know it's wrong -- for the same reason pedophilia is wrong: because it is wrong to view a child as an object of sexual desire.

35 posted on 08/09/2002 10:06:39 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Dimensio
Both questions are answered with a simple...BOTH are deviant behavior and both are to be reviled by God fearing folks.

Homosexuals are deviants, they engage in a behavior that is dangerous to their health, dangerous to the morally accepted social standards and have been known to be dangerous to the unsuspecting and weak "recruits" and victims.

Pedophilia is another form of deviancy that has "victims" that later become recruits...and then later recruiters...

36 posted on 08/09/2002 10:09:49 AM PDT by antivenom
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To: Defiant

The Americans charged include: Lloyd Alan Emmerson of Fresno County, Calif.; Paul Whitmore and Brooke Rowland, San Diego County,

I believe that Brooke Rowland was the San Diego guy arrested earlier

37 posted on 08/09/2002 10:11:00 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: r9etb
But of course, there's more to it than reasoned argument: it's wrong, and we both know it.

I've never liked that kind of "reasoning". I've found it completely unsatisfying, because it's appealing to nothing. I always like to ask "why is it wrong?", because I figure that if something is wrong, it's for valid reasons rather than just some arbitrary standard that someone created. In the case of adult-child sexual contact, I can think of a number of reasons (not the least of which is "informed consent"). Historical and cultural precedent doesn't amount to anything either, as using norms of the past to decide that an action is right or wrong is no less arbitrary than just saying "it's wrong because it's wrong"; it's appeal to tradition. Murder has commonly been considered unacceptable in the past while slavery was commonly considered acceptable. Arguments for rightness or wrongness should be based on more than "it's always been like that" or "ignorant people used to do that, but we've advanced since then".
38 posted on 08/09/2002 10:11:52 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: NYer; stalin
The foreigners were identified as Eggert Jensen and Bente Jensen of Denmark; Jean-Michael Frances Cattin, Marcel Egli and Peter Althaus of Switzerland; and Dirk-Jan Prins of the Netherlands.

Yep, things are soooooo much better in those free and easy nations that practice democratic socialism and "enlightened" sexual mores..../sarcasm off.

Expect the liberal intelligentsia over here to adopt this pro pedophilia stance with increasing frequency. They slavishly follow any degenerate Eurotrash trend within a few years.

39 posted on 08/09/2002 10:12:52 AM PDT by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: Dimensio

Why is adult-child sex wrong? I'm speaking of children <12 and adults >18 (not that I think that sex with a fourteen-year old is "acceptable" by any means, but I'm trying to stay within the context of these arrests, which I assume involved very young children).

Why is homosexuality wrong? Be specific, don't offer what "some" or "many" homosexuals do. Explain exactly why two people of the same gender engaging in sexual activity of any kind is "wrong" no matter the circumstances.

I should hope that your answers are significantly different.

Umm... be specific - explain exactly why two people of any age or gender engaging in sexual activity of any kind is "wrong" no matter the circumstances? I'll drop my own personal convictions, play the devil's advocate here and say that as long as there's 'informed consent' then there's nothing wrong with it.

40 posted on 08/09/2002 10:17:49 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: Frapster
There is no legal consent with children. They cannot make that decision. It's like taking money from a retarded person and swearing he gave you permission. It doesn't fly.
41 posted on 08/09/2002 10:20:03 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Frapster
16 = age of consent. If that age is correct then it shouldn't matter what they consent to.
42 posted on 08/09/2002 10:21:37 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Spunky
The identity of the tenth American was not immediately available.

What if Westerfield is 10th ?

43 posted on 08/09/2002 10:22:53 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Dimensio
Explain exactly why two people of the same gender engaging in sexual activity of any kind is "wrong" no matter the circumstances.

Because it defies the natural order. That is why we find so many homosexuals having sex in public areas. That is why AIDS killed so many so fast. That is why the rate of domestic abuse is so much higher in homosexuals. That is why homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. It's a perversion. The more it is accepted; the worse it gets.

44 posted on 08/09/2002 10:25:02 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Frapster
Q:If someone consents to sex, is it OK to give them AIDS?
45 posted on 08/09/2002 10:26:27 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: stalin
I'd be willing to bet that the Euros get very light sentances or get off completely. They don't take this sort of thing very seriously over there. They probably only investigated at all because of US pressure.

Pink Ballets and Protected Pornographers ... a Global(ists) Problem

46 posted on 08/09/2002 10:29:50 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Frapster
Explain exactly why two people of any age or gender engaging in sexual activity of any kind is "wrong" no matter the circumstances?

I can't, because I cannot make a blanket statement that two people of any age engaging in sexual activity is "wrong" because it's far too broad and non-specific. The "any age" might be objectionable, but as it is totally non-sepcific and could apply to two thrity year olds, I cannot create a specific objection to it. In that sense, I cannot say that it's always "not wrong", but I also cannot say that it's "wrong" (just like I cannot define simply "killing a person" as either "wrong" or "not wrong" because I see a difference between breaking into your neighbour's home and killing them and shooting someone who has broken into your home and threatend your life).
47 posted on 08/09/2002 10:31:58 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Frapster
Taken to its logical conclusion, indeed child porn and sexual activity with "consenting" children is acceptable.

See, the Interlock's criminal, pedophile pornographer Kinsey and the Supreme Court (who's okayed "faked" cyber child porn -- as if there's some substantive difference in the real ejaculations intended) for more.

48 posted on 08/09/2002 10:32:15 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Frapster
You are venturing into something I have often pondered. We base our views on how evil it is for an adult to sexualize a child, but that view stems from our Judeo-Christian background. What if we were to come upon a culture who saw nothing wrong with adult-child sex, as has been documented in ancient Greek and Chinese cultures. If God must be taken out of the equation (according to many Libertarians and most all Liberals) how then does natural law prove the same?

This is no longer a hypothetical. There are actual psychologist and doctors that are stating that some forms of adult-child sex result not only in no harm for the child, but perhaps as a benefit. So if religion cannot be brought into the discussion how are we to combat this?

As far as why parents would do this, I don't know what is the issue in these cases but many people are afflicted with pedophile thoughts that they cannot control. Usually brought on through their upbringing. Now if their mind is feeling that sex with a child is truly a way of portraying love for that child, what do we tell them to prove to them that they are wrong? This is the same with homosexuals. They think that since they FEEL a certain way, it excuses them to act a certain way. And without using God, how do you oppose their views?

This is why a Godless law system can never work.

49 posted on 08/09/2002 10:32:21 AM PDT by Texaggie79
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To: r9etb
Perhaps a better question might be: "is there any action that is intrinsically wrong?

Good question. Males and females are intrinsically structured such that the males sex organs fit the female sex organs. The sex organs are apparently for procreation.

Pre-pubescent children do not have the capability to have children. So some of this depends on what a "child" is. It's not uncommon to call a 14 year-old a child but physically two 14 year-olds to could make babies. But so could a 14 year-old and a 25 year-old.

I would start from a design perspective and look at how our bodies are designed. Then we factor in other conserations, like societal concerns and come up with an age everyone can agree is a good age for people to start making desicions about sex. We legislate morality by concensus by saying that adults cannot have sex with minors.

Both homosexuality and pedophilia are perversions and immoral based on a religious basis. We don't have to be ashamed of that. For if the homosexual activists wish to assert some sort of absolute claim to morality, that homosexuality is moral, they must borrow from some objective moral law giver. Of course, that a whole 'nuther topic.

50 posted on 08/09/2002 10:33:00 AM PDT by Undivided Heart
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