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Philippines - Two Jehovah's Witnesses hostages decapitated by Abu Sayyaf
AFP via Babelfish translation ^ | August 21, 2002

Posted on 08/21/2002 5:54:16 PM PDT by HAL9000

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To: Terriergal
Islam is a Religion of PeaceTM
101 posted on 08/21/2002 10:55:33 PM PDT by ItisaReligionofPeace
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To: TLBSHOW
What does the Abu Sayyaf have to do with Danny Pearl?
102 posted on 08/21/2002 11:01:17 PM PDT by altair
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To: altair
all in the name of islam
103 posted on 08/21/2002 11:22:58 PM PDT by TLBSHOW
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To: TLBSHOW
outlaw the cult islam in America! that is the only way

I don't think you can outlaw what someone believes in. If they break a law then we can arrest them, but we can't arrest them for believing in Islam.

104 posted on 08/21/2002 11:33:40 PM PDT by SwordofTruth
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To: dennisw; OKCSubmariner; watchin; VOA; harpseal; timestax; xJones; justshutupandtakeit; TopDog2; ...
More info on the Christians killed.

'New beheading videos in stock next week at your local mosque'-list

If people want on or off this list, please let me know.
105 posted on 08/22/2002 1:11:24 AM PDT by knighthawk
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To: Citizen of the Savage Nation
FYI
106 posted on 08/22/2002 1:12:04 AM PDT by knighthawk
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To: knighthawk

107 posted on 08/22/2002 1:59:32 AM PDT by Nix 2
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To: SwordofTruth
We can send them all to meet Allah and the virgins.
108 posted on 08/22/2002 2:37:01 AM PDT by exnavy
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To: TLBSHOW
I think I get your drift now, and I'm not impressed. Islam in its origins in the old testament is as much a false religion as Christianity, was a true one that apostacized from it's roots. Lets call a cult a cult, you can't have 2000 plus Christian denominations, with differing doctrines, and call them all part of "the church", unless you are willing to let purity of doctrine, and the whole truth, be just words.

The same applies to islam and its doctrines, which I believe long pre-date the prophet mohammed, and IMHO can now be fully recognized as the Anti-Christ. Christians who love to wrap themselves in the 'cult' cult, I believe are in for a rude awakening.

Bottom line, islam is as much a religion as Christianity, it just suffers from far less truth regardless of denomination, cult, or off-shoot. If I missed your point, I apologize in advance.
109 posted on 08/22/2002 3:17:23 AM PDT by wita
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To: Revolting cat!
you ARE revolting!
110 posted on 08/22/2002 3:56:17 AM PDT by bandlength
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To: andy_card
Sorry, their own statement is that they intend to kill all who do not believe in Allah. That's their purpose in life and if not religious then I suppose you are a proponent of the bill clinton what is is dictionary.
111 posted on 08/22/2002 4:41:56 AM PDT by OldFriend
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To: OldFriend
their own statement is that they intend to kill all who do not believe in Allah

This is such a disturbing story. I heard that on Fox this morning. They reported that a note was attached to one of the decapitated heads that stated "this is what happens to those who do not believe in Allah". I don't know how much clearer they need to spell out that this is indeed a religous war.

112 posted on 08/22/2002 4:49:38 AM PDT by freeperfromnj
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To: wita
islam is not like christians, stop spewing BS!
113 posted on 08/22/2002 6:47:09 AM PDT by TLBSHOW
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To: tomahawk
I am with you. We should also arm Serbia to combat the radical Islamists/drug dealers. That is where they get lots of money to finance that hate. Bomb Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Sudan! Force Mubarak out, and install pro-American regime, including media bosses.
114 posted on 08/22/2002 6:52:16 AM PDT by philosofy123
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To: freeperfromnj
This is quite a fun topic.

My take on the issue is that any group will have bad apples. Let's just say we could make a list of all the known Muslims (alive and dead) we consider(ed) threats to Americans, how long would it be?

Maybe 10,000 Palestinians. The hierarchies of Iraq, Syria and Iran (say a couple thousand at most). A couple tens of thousands scattered across Pakistan, Afghanistan, Jordon, Saudi Arabia and those nations that encircle it. And let's be generous and say al Qaeda and the like has 50,000 members throughout the world.

Add them all up and round it up to the nearest million and we get about a million. Of course 99% of them probably can't afford to actually travel here (our presence there is a very convenient commodity) leaving 10,000 who can afford it. Of course more than half of that is already on a watch list that the customs and INS is supposed to look at - but apparently don't because they are stupid.

So assuming rounding up by about a factor of between five or ten we might have 5,000 that can ACTUALLY enter the US. We probably would catch half of them, because they would try to import weaponry (unless airport security cavity searches the 80 year old great-grandmother sitting next to them instead)

So that leaves 2,500 who may or may not have brought in their own weapons. They can rule out going to Home Depot and attempting to re-do September 11 with boxcutters because the passengers will revolt automatically. Get a gun? Perhaps if they don't mind traveling all the way over here and dying while killing a mere score at most. Attack a US military base? Well they ARE suicidal but that stupid? Maybe THEY started all those forest fires!

But back to the point, a million out of a billion doesn't constitute a bad group of people. Heck we've got more than one million Americans incarcerated for various offences out of 300 million and we hardly see crime ending.

I would contend that they use Islam as an excuse for what they do instead of a reason. What more convenient way of separating their followers from us? I recall a very rabid response from Christians when the (secular) judge ruled against "under God". Christian radicals hate secularists just as much as Muslim radicals. Muslim radicals merely take it just a couple of steps further.
115 posted on 08/22/2002 6:58:50 AM PDT by Jake0001
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To: HAL9000
The victims here are not Christians! Lets not put them in the same catagory as the persecuted church. While this event is tragic and painful to read about, theye are cult members and care nothing for the shed blood of Christ our saviour. They are working almost (minus the kidnapping and violence)as fervently to whipe the name of Jesus from the face of the earth. Sad but true.
116 posted on 08/22/2002 7:20:43 AM PDT by TheGunny
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To: HAL9000
I wonder if FDR was telling the media and the citizenry in 1936, that the Nazis were a party of peace?????????The Germans had such a long history of being misunderstood???Or that only a few "militant" Nazis, were the exception, rather than the rule?
117 posted on 08/22/2002 7:34:57 AM PDT by jeremiah
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To: Utopia
Turkey is a country split by religion, and ruled by the elected, it is not technically an Islamic country. Individuals in Turkey follow the religion of Muhammed, not the govt. The priests or whatever they are called, do not run the govt of Turkey, if they did, Turkey would not be our ally.
118 posted on 08/22/2002 7:41:05 AM PDT by jeremiah
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To: TheGunny
WWJD? I do not believe I would hear those same words from Jesus. He would grieve for them.
119 posted on 08/22/2002 7:42:32 AM PDT by Inkie
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To: TheGunny
That is partially true. They do have among the strongest-handed hierarchies on the planet. They make our own military seem unregimented in comparison. I was at one time studying with them until I rejected their theology.

If anyone from within stands up against the "elders" or "overseers" they will be banished from the congregation and all members will be ordered to not even acknowledge that person or suffer the same fate. The ones in the Bronx, who are the "remnant" (of those who can go to heaven), call all the shots, dictate the meaning of the Bible and write the literature. Discussion of theology is discouraged. Naturally the "remnant" members maintain anonymity and go about their lives without scrutiny.

True, the JW's won't kill you if you fight them, but they can and will sue you. There are not just a few books they prevented from publishing. And don't underestimate their persecution complex, they will use this incident to prove to their followers that they are being purposely targeted. Never mind these Phillipino maniacs will kidnap and decapitate anyone they can get.
120 posted on 08/22/2002 7:44:41 AM PDT by Jake0001
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To: Billthedrill
I rarely behead Jehovah's Witnesses, but I have been known to pretend nobody was home when they knocked on the door...
121 posted on 08/22/2002 7:48:17 AM PDT by Kenton
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To: Jake0001
My take on the issue is that any group will have bad apples.

Sorry, but it only took 19 of them to take 3,000 lives. After witnessing September 11 first hand, after watching footage of numerous suicide bombings committed by Palestinian muslims and Pakistani muslims killing Christians and Hindus (not to mention what they did to Daniel Pearl) and the horror perpetrated by muslims in the Phillipines I'm just fresh out of tolerance.

122 posted on 08/22/2002 8:27:26 AM PDT by freeperfromnj
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To: freeperfromnj
On the other hand it just took a small airplane crew of Americans to wipe out 100,000 Japanese at Hiroshima.

Bush could decimate the entire region's population with just the simple order to launch some nuclear tipped ICBMs. We have the advantage.

We could obliterate any of those nations easily if we decided not to be discriminatory about what we bombed.

Heck, we subjugated the land of Afghanistan with 25 million people in it with fewer than 25,000 soldiers.

Unlike them, we use our resources and money efficiently and intelligently. We have an economy and currency that dominates the globe (note foreign journalists almost always convert the foreign dollars into equivalent US dollars). They are jealous of our prosperity, good fortune and our inginuity. I bet there isn't a building a quarter the height of the WTC in the entire region.

Those poor saps who look up to the fanatics are deluded into thinking we stole from them, when in fact it was the fanatics who did so (either by direct thievery or by scaring away investment). Those fanatics will one day face a day of reckoning when their followers realize that they had been conned.

123 posted on 08/22/2002 9:08:52 AM PDT by Jake0001
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To: andy_card
Well, from my point of view, all religions are equally false.

How could you possibly know such a thing? Are you God?

Cordially,

124 posted on 08/22/2002 9:44:31 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: OldFriend
>Good grief,they captured six Avon ladies...........

Its amazing how the jihadis boldly attack the strongest military targets... sleeping 5 year old children, unarmed women...

If the villagers in Indonesia, India and the Phillipines were armed to any degree and if their cultural attitudes regarding self defense and self preservation were changed, the jihadis would flee like they were in some Monty Python skit.

125 posted on 08/22/2002 9:59:37 AM PDT by Dialup Llama
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To: Dialup Llama
Interesting too how American women are realizing they can and should arm themselves for their own safety. This must be driving the libs mad.
126 posted on 08/22/2002 10:06:13 AM PDT by OldFriend
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To: Diamond
How could you possibly know such a thing?

The powers of human reason.

Are you God?

Yes. I am master of my own destiny. I am my own God. And no, I have not been struck by lightning.

127 posted on 08/22/2002 11:39:19 AM PDT by andy_card
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To: HAL9000
Murdering bastards - kill them all and bttt
128 posted on 08/22/2002 11:45:15 AM PDT by lodwick
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To: HAL9000
"Those which do not believe in Allah will undergo the same fate"

Holding my breath for this sentiment to be denounced by Muslims.

129 posted on 08/22/2002 11:56:51 AM PDT by js1138
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To: andy_card
Not to discount the power of human reason, but you as a finite human being, have not and cannot examine all of the evidence concerning religion that exists. Since some unknown fact may prove your limited understanding of religion to be mistaken, you cannot be certain that all the evidence is in support of your position. Thus you are in no position to positively assert that all religions are equally false, unless of course you were God, and therefore omniscient. That's why I asked.

Cordially,

130 posted on 08/22/2002 12:03:24 PM PDT by Diamond
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To: Diamond
Not to discount the power of human reason, but you as a finite human being, have not and cannot examine all of the evidence concerning religion that exists.

But there is no evidence pointing to the veracity of any religion. That's the point. You're supposed to accept their dogma on blind faith alone.

Since some unknown fact may prove your limited understanding of religion to be mistaken, you cannot be certain that all the evidence is in support of your position.

Well, that's always true with anything. But based on the evidence available to me, its safe to say that there's no rational reason for belief in any divine or supernatural being.

Thus you are in no position to positively assert that all religions are equally false

Um, no. I can say that all religions are false, just as I can say that the world isn't flat. Could some evidence ever be produced that would conclusively demonstrate that all of our round-earth beliefs have all been mass-delusions and optical illusions? Conceivably, that's possible. We'll cross that bridge if as and when we come to it, but until that point, I'll continue to make declarative statements.

131 posted on 08/22/2002 12:26:39 PM PDT by andy_card
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To: HAL9000
When the Abu Sayaf were killed two months ago in a raid to save those other missionaries, did they bury them covered in pigs blood in an unmarked grave?

If not, then we have not paid attention to history.

5.56mm

132 posted on 08/22/2002 12:36:04 PM PDT by M Kehoe
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To: andy_card
But there is no evidence pointing to the veracity of any religion. That's the point.

There you go again. There is no way that you can know for certain that there is no evidence pointing to the veracity of any religion, which is actually what you do acknowledge in your next statement that:

Well, that's always true with anything...

But based on the evidence available to me, its safe to say that there's no rational reason for belief in any divine or supernatural being.

You do not have enough information to know for certain that it is safe to say that there's no rational reason for any belief in any divine or supernatural being, because you are a finite human being who has not and cannot examine all of the evidence concerning religion that exists. The assertion that the world isn't flat is based on empirical observations that the earth is a globe. However, your assertion that there's no rational reason for belief in any divine or supernatural being is not an empirical observation, it is a metaphysical assertion.

The best you can do is the expression of a personal doubt, namely that you haven't come across any evidence that you are willing to regard as providing a rational basis for belief in any divine or supernatural being.

Cordially,

133 posted on 08/22/2002 12:56:51 PM PDT by Diamond
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To: altair
What does the Abu Sayyaf have to do with Danny Pearl?

The Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines and the murderers of Daniel Pearl in Pakistan are indirectly related through al Qaeda connections.

134 posted on 08/22/2002 1:25:13 PM PDT by HAL9000
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To: Diamond
This is what I gather from your argument:

1. Somewhere, there may be evidence that God exists, you just haven't seen it. Presumably, its hiding under a rock.
2. Therefore, you should just assume that God exists.

There is plenty of evidence that the world was created solely through natural phenomena. As such, there is no need for a God.

The best you can do is the expression of a personal doubt, namely that you haven't come across any evidence that you are willing to regard as providing a rational basis for belief in any divine or supernatural being.

Um, is that wrong? Unless you can give me a reason, supported by logic or evidence, to believe in anything, I won't believe in it. That includes God, cold fusion, the Easter Bunny, and Martha Stewart's imClone alibi.

135 posted on 08/22/2002 1:33:17 PM PDT by andy_card
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To: Jake0001
Christian radicals hate secularists just as much as Muslim radicals. Muslim radicals merely take it just a couple of steps further.

To go from indignation to decapitation would require more than a couple steps.

To equate the cultural battle between conservative Christians and secular humanists with the cultural battle between radical Islam and Western Civilization is to engage in moral relativism.

The former is a battle for the hearts and minds of a free people, and is being waged in the marketplace of ideas. The latter is a battle for our survival as a free people, and is being waged in a pool of blood.

136 posted on 08/22/2002 2:03:37 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: Jeff Chandler
That depends (there goes my relativity again).

I willingly denounce that comment due to its unfair generalization of politically oriented/active Christians.

However, to judge a religion with as much of a following as Islam based on fanatical, violent lunatics isn't fair either.

Should we presume ALL catholic priests are pedophiles?

Should we presume ALL small independent protestant sects to be doomsday cults along the lines of the Branch Dividians?

How'd you like it if all the Muslims based their opinions of Christians based on experiences with Jehovah's Witnesses?

137 posted on 08/22/2002 3:32:12 PM PDT by Jake0001
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To: andy_card
Islam is false and a fake.
138 posted on 08/22/2002 3:33:53 PM PDT by TLBSHOW
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To: HAL9000
Oh, my God, Jehovah! This is just horrible. Horrible! God bless the families.
139 posted on 08/22/2002 3:34:15 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy
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To: tomahawk
They must be stopped - NOW!!!!!!!!
140 posted on 08/22/2002 3:38:42 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy
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To: TLBSHOW
Islam is false and a fake.

Agreed! Now lets add to the list:

Judaism is false and a fake.
Christianity is false and a fake.
Hinduism is false and a fake.
Shintoism is false and a fake.
Zororastrianism is false and a fake.
Baha'i is false and a fake.
Classical Paganism is false and a fake.
Animism is false and a fake.
Jainism is false and a fake.
Sihkhism is false and a fake.
Falun Gong is false and a fake.
Budhism is false and a fake.
Taoism is false and a fake.
Scientology is false and a fake.
Confucianism is false and a fake.

This is fun!

141 posted on 08/22/2002 3:41:32 PM PDT by andy_card
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To: andy_card
Very interesting discussion going on in here. I would argue that it is not a matter of finding evidence but what you accept as evidence that is critical. An atheist can find no evidence of God in the universe, a religious person may see nothing but evidence of God. Both are merely opinions because neither view can be proven or disproved empirically. Hence the term faith.

As for Islam being a religion, I think it's safe to say it is in the same way it one might say a dictatorship is a form of government. The problem is that it is only purports to be a religion of peace if everyone is in perfect submission to Allah. I'll take Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door with literature over Muslims knocking on my building with a plane every time.

142 posted on 08/22/2002 3:50:45 PM PDT by Allrightnow
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To: andy_card
Very interesting discussion going on in here. I would argue that it is not a matter of finding evidence but what you accept as evidence that is critical. An atheist can find no evidence of God in the universe, a religious person may see nothing but evidence of God. Both are merely opinions because neither view can be proven or disproved empirically.

As for Islam being a religion, I think it's safe to say it is in the same way it one might say a dictatorship is a form of government. The problem is that it is only purports to be a religion of peace if everyone is in perfect submission to Allah. I'll take Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door with literature over Muslims knocking on my building with a plane every time.

143 posted on 08/22/2002 3:52:57 PM PDT by Allrightnow
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To: andy_card
Unless you can give me a reason, supported by logic or evidence, to believe in anything, I won't believe in it.

Do you have evidence for everything that you believe?

You for example believe either that something comes from absolute nothing, or that the universe is eternal, without the slightest scintilia of evidence or logic to support either belief.

I and billions of other people happen to think there are pleanty of reasons, supported by logic and evidence, to believe in the existence of God.

Cordially,

144 posted on 08/22/2002 6:02:56 PM PDT by Diamond
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To: Utopia
Turkey is secular, the Islamowackos there are kept on a very tight leash. That's the difference!
145 posted on 08/22/2002 6:07:02 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: Jake0001
However, to judge a religion with as much of a following as Islam based on fanatical, violent lunatics isn't fair either.

You will find nothing of the sort in my post. I specifically qualified the term Islam with the adjective radical.

I would also like to amend my previous post. When I wrote moral relativism, I actually meant moral equivalence, but my brain wasn't working properly.

Moral equivalence is frequently practiced by the left. The moral equivalent position vis-a-vis the former Soviet Union was that the United States was equally evil. The moral equivalent position regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that deliberately targeting women and children for suicide terror is the same as accidentally killing civilians when attacking terrorists.

Since you didn't mean to paint all Christians with the same brush, and I didn't mean to do the same to Moslems, the moral equivalence point is moot. I will make another point, however.

Look at the reaction in the Islamic world to 9-11. Where is the outrage? The Islamic world is nearly unanimous in its support of all the horrendous, inhuman terror unleashed by their brethren. However, when a single act of criminal terror is committed by a Christian (for example, when an abortionist is murdered), the Christian world is nearly unanimous in its condemnation of the act. It's a difference worth noting, and perhaps a warning to us.

146 posted on 08/22/2002 6:38:14 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: Diamond
You are very very good.

a.cricket

147 posted on 08/22/2002 7:00:16 PM PDT by another cricket
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To: andy_card
Sure is and it must be sad to be you. Do you believe only in you?
148 posted on 08/22/2002 7:13:56 PM PDT by TLBSHOW
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To: andy_card
Um, is that wrong?

Um, I'll bet you think using "Um" frequently is clever, don't you?

149 posted on 08/22/2002 7:16:19 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: TLBSHOW
ITS NOT A RELIGION and anyone that says it is a religion has a few screws loose!!!!!!!!!!

Are you talking about the Jehova Witness, or Abu Sayyaf?

150 posted on 08/23/2002 3:44:33 AM PDT by snodog
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