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Burton's panel finds links to foreigners in Oklahoma blast (MIDDLE EASTERNERS IN OKC BOMBING)
INDIANAPOLIS STAR ^ | AUGUST 24, 2002 | JAMES PATTERSON

Posted on 08/24/2002 6:47:39 AM PDT by aristeides

Edited on 05/07/2004 6:26:32 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

The Government Reform Committee, chaired by Rep. Dan Burton of Indiana, was back sniffing around Oklahoma City last week looking for reasons to believe that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols had help.

They found plenty. Committee lawyer Marc Chretien interviewed at least six people who claimed to have seen McVeigh keeping company with foreign-looking men in the days, even minutes, before the bombing on April 19, 1995.


(Excerpt) Read more at indystar.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; US: Oklahoma
KEYWORDS: fredthompson; iraq; jaynadavis; johnson; mcveigh; middleeast; okcbombing; schippers
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James Patterson is still on the case. Good to learn that Dan Burton is too.
1 posted on 08/24/2002 6:47:39 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: OKCSubmariner; BlueDogDemo; Fred Mertz
FYI.
2 posted on 08/24/2002 6:48:11 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
OKC bump. May the truth be told.
3 posted on 08/24/2002 6:50:29 AM PDT by the crow
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To: aristeides
No, going after white men wearing camoflage is/was more important.

Nothing to see here, please move along, OK?
4 posted on 08/24/2002 6:51:48 AM PDT by Guillermo
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To: Guillermo
If OKC turns out to be the easiest-to-prove casus belli against Iraq, this may get public airing after all.
5 posted on 08/24/2002 6:56:54 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides; Miss Marple; Dog; Chairman_December_19th_Society
This story seems to be gaining legs. Rush, Glenn Beck and some others have run segments.

5.56mm

6 posted on 08/24/2002 7:00:59 AM PDT by M Kehoe
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To: Guillermo
Key point to remember: This took place just months after the pubbies took over the House and the big question was whether or not clinton was marginalized or not. The pubbies had all the momentum. After OKC, clinton steamrolled Newt et al and the pubbies did virtually nothing with their majority.
Conclusion: no gov't investigation because clinton and crew new something big was going to happen and they figured out that it was to their advantage to let it.
Question: Why were so many top level gov't employees out of office that day?
7 posted on 08/24/2002 7:01:42 AM PDT by Founding Father
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To: aristeides
What was McVeigh's motivation, Ruby Ridge and Waco?

What would be the motivation of the putative co-conspirators, the middle-eastern looking dudes, that they hate America, and just think it's grand that they have this white guy who wants to do some demolition?

Is it just a marriage of convenience, and did McVeigh go along just to learn the technical aspects from the towelheads, or, is there some deeper reason for collaboration?

I have seen Patterson's articles over and over in the Star and have not known what to make of them.

Thank you for this post.

Regards, caddie

8 posted on 08/24/2002 7:02:25 AM PDT by caddie
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To: aristeides
Thank you very much for posting this.

1. Rarely has a condemned criminal been put to death as speedily as McVeigh. His exceptional silence and quick exit are circumstantial pieces of this very dirty puzzle.

2. Clinton wanted two things: (a) A Nobel for peacemaking in the Mideast (which he pursued by meeting with Arafat more than any other leader and by playing up to the Islamics-thus the requisite minimization of their role in OKC); (b) Demonization of the right wing in our republic.

3. The extent to which the corruption of Bubba Rex permeated the law enforcement hierarchy trivializes the imagination. Many of the Clintonistas still infest the DOJ, FBI, etc. The Republicans are too compromised and cowardly to disinfect appropriately.

4. It would be very helpful if the fuss between some of the folks who have done such a fine job of accumulating the evidence could be resolved and a united front presented against the media & bureaucratic 'desinformatsiya.'
9 posted on 08/24/2002 7:03:07 AM PDT by esopman
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To: aristeides
You better believe Clinton didn't want this pursued
10 posted on 08/24/2002 7:05:34 AM PDT by uncbob
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To: caddie
I could only offer speculations on the motivation of the different parties. I'm not sure it's worth discussing them when they are just speculations. But it certainly is possible to imagine possible motivations.
11 posted on 08/24/2002 7:06:35 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
How times change, under Clinton/reno it was necessary that only right wing militia/christian conservative/racist Americans be investigated and suppressed....

After 9/11, after fair success in Afganistan it is reported that:

"deeply placed law enforcement contacts...confirmed his suspicions that the Department of Justice should reopen the case because he believes the Middle Eastern terrorist cell is still operational."
And:
"If it's true that Oklahoma bombing ties run all the way to Saddam Hussein, that would mean we go to war against Iraq."

I truly do believe that OKC was a conspiracy far beyond anything the fed's have allowed to be told. I firmly believe the fed's know damn good and well the what/who/how/why of the thing and have known from the first.
What I am NOT comfortable with is the convenience of suddenly 'discovering' that conspiracy just when a 'new' government wants a second shot at Saddam.

Do times change afterall?

PS: I also hope, out of a still active desire to believe our side can do it better, that all of this build up and talk of invasion is meant to bring Saddam down from within unless he really does do something deserving of a knock out punch.

12 posted on 08/24/2002 7:10:40 AM PDT by norton
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To: caddie
Good questions.
13 posted on 08/24/2002 7:14:25 AM PDT by RJCogburn
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To: aristeides
Several of the witnesses directly link eight Middle Eastern men, most of whom are former Iraqi soldiers,…..

I wander if these “former Iraqi soldiers” are part of the group of Iraqi officers the our government relocated to the US at taxpayer’s expense? Wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn our own government is importing terrorists and providing operating capital. It is amazing that our country still exists with such fu***d up people governing it.

14 posted on 08/24/2002 7:17:58 AM PDT by varon
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To: aristeides
McVeigh is routinely brought up by the multiculturalist "civil rights" activists as a reason why we must not suspect foreigners more than assimilated Americans as posing a terrorism threat. It is an idiotic assertion even if Middle Easterners were not involved in the OKC bombing. Increasingly, however, it looks like they were. OKC always seemed to me to be too technically complicated a bombing to have been carried out exclusively by relatively inexperienced amateurs.
15 posted on 08/24/2002 7:18:34 AM PDT by uscit
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To: aristeides
"If OKC turns out to be the easiest-to-prove casus belli against Iraq, this may get public airing after all."

The operative word is 'may.' Yes, if this attack were clearly linked to Iraq, AND the media covered it, AND the Republicans ran with it...the weather forecast for Baghdad could be tornadic winds of 1,800 kph, daytime highs of 3,000 degrees...

However, this would unravel a thread leading to the inner warp & woof of the Washington establishment. My guess is that the powers-that-be are furious with Burton & friends. They will undermine this rather than risk the exposure of a network within the alphabet agencies which is undoubtedly still in place.
16 posted on 08/24/2002 7:19:04 AM PDT by esopman
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To: norton
Eurasia is the enemy, Eurasia has always been the enemy...

1984

17 posted on 08/24/2002 7:20:39 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: Founding Father
I think it will remain just hints and rumors of ME connections. They should have the effect of pumping up support for ME actions without opening the can of worms.

If there were ME connections, the coverup would involve a large part of our intelligence operations. I don't see how we could officially claim that without a full scale investigation into who and why would our government do such a thing. Neither party seems to want to look too deeply into our security organizations.
18 posted on 08/24/2002 7:22:57 AM PDT by steve50
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To: uscit
Yes, I constantly hear the black racists who call in to C-SPAN use McVeigh as an argument for no racial profiling.
19 posted on 08/24/2002 7:24:33 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
Right after the OKC explosion, the network news reporters/commentators were talking about the possibility of "foreign terrorists" and primarily Middle Eastern being the perps. About 15 to 20 minutes after the national nets began their live coverage, the reporters/commentators changed their "possibilities" to include, then probably was, a VRWC extremist. Soon any reference to ME or foreign were replaced with VRWC extremist. [I thought at the time that it seemed strange the way they shifted their reporting so quickly.] When McVeigh was caught it "confirmed" the revised reporting.

[It always seemed to me to be supicious that the OKC explosion, following soon soon after the WTC bombing, was directed toward an American extremist, even after reports of ME men that same morning on the net reports. I guess word came down from "higher up" that it was solely the work of VRWC extremists.]
20 posted on 08/24/2002 7:29:23 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: TomGuy
I would be very interested to learn how the government transmits its marching orders to the media.
21 posted on 08/24/2002 7:34:37 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
Some previous information is found here

Other Bad Dudes

22 posted on 08/24/2002 7:35:11 AM PDT by Sgt_Schultze
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To: aristeides
I would be very interested to learn how the government transmits its marching orders to the media.

Purely supposition timeline:

Clinton picks up phone to Reno: "It was VWRC extremists, see!"
Reno: "Yes, sir." [Time elapse - 2 minutes]
Reno phones NYT chairman: "This is Reno. It was VWRC extremists, per The Boss." [Time elapse - 2 minutes]
Reno phones WP chairman: "This is Reno. It was VWRC extremists, per The Boss." [Time elapse - 2 minutes]
Reno phones NBC chairman: "This is Reno. It was VWRC extremists, per The Boss." [Time elapse - 2 minutes]
Reno phones CBS chairman: "This is Reno. It was VWRC extremists, per The Boss." [Time elapse - 2 minutes]
Reno phones ABC chairman: "This is Reno. It was VWRC extremists, per The Boss." [Time elapse - 2 minutes]
Time for "the word" to filter to news wires/reporters, estimated 4 to 12 minutes.
23 posted on 08/24/2002 7:48:11 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: TomGuy
There is one other "inconvenient detail" that isn't mentioned enough regarding this subject. That is about the local TV coverage in the first few hours after the explosion. There were numerous times when they reported that other unexploded bombs had been found and that rescue efforts were being hampered while the bomb squad removed and defused these devices. Look on the net, there are videos of the local news coverage just after the explosion. If there was more than one bomb, then there had to have been others who were working with McVeigh in the hours and minutes before the building was attacked.


24 posted on 08/24/2002 8:03:10 AM PDT by Orangedog
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To: TomGuy
[ It always puzzled me that the reports of un-exploded ordinance being removed from the wreckage quickly disappeared as well.]
25 posted on 08/24/2002 8:07:37 AM PDT by bimbo
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To: aristeides
I would be very interested to learn how the government transmits its marching orders to the media. ... press releases.
26 posted on 08/24/2002 8:08:46 AM PDT by bimbo
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To: bimbo
BTT
27 posted on 08/24/2002 8:11:00 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: bimbo
Press releases may explain the transfer of information, but it doesn't explain why the media so quickly and so meekly go along.
28 posted on 08/24/2002 8:12:14 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
The question that continues to bother me is.......

How did the reportedly large community of iraqis come to the US, and by who's authority.

29 posted on 08/24/2002 8:18:52 AM PDT by WhiteGuy
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To: WhiteGuy
I keep reading here on FR that the Iraqis came here right after the Gulf War, on the watch of -- if not under the authority of -- Bush-41. I can't confirm from personal knowledge that this is true.
30 posted on 08/24/2002 8:23:09 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: bimbo
Has our population become so stupid or ignorant or apathetic that don't demand the federal investigators explain this??? If so, weap for the republic, for it will be doomed.
31 posted on 08/24/2002 8:25:00 AM PDT by Orangedog
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To: bimbo; aristeides
Good post. I really didnt expect this story to get such a positive spin. I guess this paper must have a "right wing" slant.

One thing regarding the initial reports of unexploded bombs within the building. I think it's pretty obvious that generally the "media" is incompetant. They are constantly changing the story on breaking news, and I think it's because they are so quick to run with speculation and rumor reported as facts.

This is not to say i believe the government line that it was all Timmy and his buddy's fault. I think it's obvious that the FBI had foreknowledge of this.
32 posted on 08/24/2002 8:28:06 AM PDT by Leper Messiah
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To: Leper Messiah
I don't know about the unexploded bombs, but isn't the seismograph showing a serious secondary explosion pretty solidly sourced? (That may just as well reflect the nature of the bomb as the presence of other bombs. The single bombs at the East African embassies caused more severe aftershocks than the original explosions. But those were not ANFO bombs, and the aftershocks show that they were not.)
33 posted on 08/24/2002 8:31:22 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
Skolnick Report link
34 posted on 08/24/2002 8:32:55 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: esopman
3. The extent to which the corruption of Bubba Rex permeated the law enforcement hierarchy trivializes the imagination. Many of the Clintonistas still infest the DOJ, FBI, etc. The Republicans are too compromised and cowardly to disinfect appropriately.

I agree limp wristed Republicans are more hinderence then help. But conervatives have to be careful not to appear as cheese heads.

35 posted on 08/24/2002 8:44:26 AM PDT by Fearless Flyers
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To: aristeides
I would be very interested to learn how the government transmits its marching orders to the media.

Why do you assume this scenario? Could it not be just as easily the other way around? The Ministry of Information working out of the same play book as the Dims re-creates the "news" out of whole cloth. They have that ability, and you'll probably agree, a virtual monopoly on information/disinformation. And a network second to none.

And who amongst the alphabet agencies would buck the media. What bureaucracy wants the media spotlight shining in their closets? There ain't no future in it.

FGS

36 posted on 08/24/2002 8:51:14 AM PDT by ForGod'sSake
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To: ForGod'sSake
If it's not the government, who coordinates the media so that they all tell the same story?
37 posted on 08/24/2002 8:53:57 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
If it's not the government, who coordinates the media so that they all tell the same story?

The Ministry of Information answers to no one. Is it inconceivable that THEY, not the gummint, could be setting the agenda? If the "government" is coordinating the media, why can't conservatives in government, or anywhere else for that matter, get fair coverage?

The media is a powerful entity in its own right; might they be giving marching orders of their own by establishing the parameters of a story? Not saying it's so necessarily, just looking for someone to convince me otherwise.

FGS

38 posted on 08/24/2002 9:06:20 AM PDT by ForGod'sSake
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To: ForGod'sSake
I take it that, by "Ministry of Information," you are referring to some single body of people? Who? The editors of the New York Times?
39 posted on 08/24/2002 9:11:11 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
I take it that, by "Ministry of Information," you are referring to some single body of people? Who? The editors of the New York Times?

Look, I don't mean to sidetrack your post, so I'll drop it after this one. Just for the sake of argument, yes, the NYT editors would be a good starting point. For your consideration from one of our own FRN chapters:

Conspiracy and the Media

Dan Chavez
08/05/2002

The issue of whether or not a conscious conspiracy exists among the members of the "mainstream media" has exercised many minds among their opponents. How to address this topic needs to be clearly understood by those dedicated to reducing the power of the media. First, so we can clearly identify our target and second so they cannot smear and vilify us with one of their favorite terms of opprobrium, namely, "conspiracy theorist".

There are many of us who believe that a conscious conspiracy exists among the liberal media to advance a left-wing, pro-statist agenda. Despite the odium attached to the term, a conspiracy is merely an agreement between people to pursue a common goal or engage in certain actions, chosen in advance. Whatever the reason one believes there exists a conspiracy among the media it is best, for tactical reasons, to simply use these beliefs, whatever they may be, as a motivator to action rather than a position for debate. Reason being that exceptions may exist to any conspiracy theory and will undoubtedly be trotted out by the media. Plus we must not give our opponents any excuse to marginalize or weaken our cause by smear tactics.

CCRM as the 'Man of LaMancha' leads the people in the fight against media biasIt is true that the majority of journalists and editors in the "mainstream" media characterize themselves as Democrats. It is also true that in a hierarchical structure the values of those lower down in that structure will reflect echo or at the very least not be a threat to those higher up. For our purposes it is better to articulate our struggle as being a combat against those who share certain values and assumptions. This, by the way, will be entirely true.

One of the reasons for the power of the media is that they have been able to function as a conspiracy while yet being able to claim it does not. Not so much by argument as by ad hominum and vilification campaigns against those who were against them. Or, by simply ignoring them. When you have a group of people that share certain values and assumptions, like the media's editors and journalists do, you can predict with a certainty what their political slant and biases for or against certain issues will be. Add to this the structure of the media being a hierarchy where those above can weed out or deny advancement to those on the lower levels and you already have what to an outsider would appear a conscious conspiracy. But what is in reality a series of assumptions expressed by a group of people that takes on the appearance of unanimity. But, at the same time is something that can be denied as a conspiracy. So, the mainstream media has had the best of both worlds, namely, to be able to function as a conspiracy, albeit an unconscious one, and to be able to mock, denigrate and point up rare exceptions to their otherwise unanimity on most issues, when they are not otherwise ignoring their critics, which is most of the time.

Bernard Goldberg in his book "Bias" writes of network newscasters "Liberal bias is how they see the world" and " It just happens. News isn't just a collection of facts. It's also how reporters and editors see those facts, how they interpret them, and most important, what facts they think are newsworthy to begin with". These are the terms and the context within which the issues of a "conspiracy" within the "mainstream" media should best be articulated. If we can reduce their power and influence in an effective fashion then the opponents of the "mainstream" media will be well served no matter what their views on media "conspiracies" might be.


Read Dan's previous columns:

FGS


40 posted on 08/24/2002 9:24:01 AM PDT by ForGod'sSake
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To: caddie
Is it just a marriage of convenience, and did McVeigh go along just to learn the technical aspects from the towelheads, or, is there some deeper reason for collaboration?

McVeigh was a 'closet' Iraqi sympathizer.

It has not been widely publicized, but the (female) former executive director of the OKBIC established a rapport and correspondence link with McVeigh in prison. She shared with me at least one of his letters in which McVeigh justified his killing of children in OKC as 'no worse than the US's evil bombing and starvation (via sanctions) of Iraqi children'.

FWIW, she described McV as "a horny kid who welcomed the opportunity to correspond with a not-unattractive young woman." (my paraphrase...)

TXnMA (no longer!!!)

41 posted on 08/24/2002 9:50:44 AM PDT by TXnMA
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To: glorygirl; *OKCbombing
PING! ...And please ping this to your OKC Bombing list (or did I just do that?...)

Thanks!

TXnMA (no longer!!!)

42 posted on 08/24/2002 10:11:29 AM PDT by TXnMA
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To: aristeides
Maybe it's time to offer Nichols a plea bargain. If he tells all about the mid-east/OK connection and links it to Saddam, he can get out of jail and be deported to Iraq.
43 posted on 08/24/2002 10:15:48 AM PDT by Eva
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To: aristeides
bump
44 posted on 08/24/2002 10:19:36 AM PDT by VOA
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To: aristeides
The biggest question I have with regard to the conspiracy theories on OK City is the tendency of terrorist organizations to brag of their accomplishments. I haven't heard of one group that takes credit for the bombing, yet with something so "successful," one would think the group responsible would step forward.

How does staying quiet further their terroristic cause?

45 posted on 08/24/2002 10:22:20 AM PDT by Spyder
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To: honway
BUMP
46 posted on 08/24/2002 10:54:07 AM PDT by OKCSubmariner
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To: aristeides
Thanks for the ping on this one.
47 posted on 08/24/2002 10:54:46 AM PDT by OKCSubmariner
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To: Spyder
The biggest question I have with regard to the conspiracy theories on OK City is the tendency of terrorist organizations to brag of their accomplishments. I haven't heard of one group that takes credit for the bombing, yet with something so "successful," one would think the group responsible would step forward.

How does staying quiet further their terroristic cause?

Staying quiet furthers their cause because it allows the liberals to continue to blame conservatives for the bombing. If Islamic terrorists are proven to have been involved in the bombing and Clinton is proven to have deliberately concealed evidence of this fact, the liberals will lose more trust in the eyes of all but the die-hard, kneepads Clintonists. If liberals lose power and influence, then America becomes a stronger nation. Keeping America weak by protecting their liberal buddies furthers the terrorist cause.

WFTR
Bill

48 posted on 08/24/2002 11:24:27 AM PDT by WFTR
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To: aristeides
Come on, Dan. Get these bastards who covered it up. OKC was used by Sinkmaster to save his presidency and put the focus on so-called "right wing" nuts. All the loonies on the left had to side with him and would stick with him no matter what. He counted on that. He had to divide the nation to survive politically.
49 posted on 08/24/2002 1:36:09 PM PDT by doug from upland
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To: aristeides
What kind of disloyal American would talk about this stuff in public. Someone might get the idea that the FBI is incompetent and we can't have that leaking out.
50 posted on 08/24/2002 1:40:56 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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