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The end of the end of history
www.taipeitimes.com ^ | August 26th, 2002 | John Gray

Posted on 08/26/2002 1:32:55 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

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1 posted on 08/26/2002 1:32:56 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
psst...marxism/communism/socialism marches on, attempting to grab control of
production using environmentalist arguments.
2 posted on 08/26/2002 1:40:48 PM PDT by crypt2k
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To: crypt2k
and trying to fill a spritual vacume with gaia worship or external locus of control religions like islam
3 posted on 08/26/2002 1:45:18 PM PDT by joesnuffy
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To: crypt2k
psst...marxism/communism/socialism marches on, attempting to grab control of production using environmentalist arguments.

In this article, Dr. Gray is talking about the failure of the Soviet project, which involved a model of centralized state planning. It is this model which is discredited. You may call the environmentalists and others socialists, but their methods are different; they are working within the liberal democratic system, and their remedies will be liberal democratic remedies, not Soviet remedies. I.e., expect lots of feel good indoctrination and government regulation working within a free market, not centralized state control of everything. This kind of activist "marxist" policy does not conflict with neo-liberal economics as long as it operates within the liberal democratic system. Western marxism so operates; Communist or Soviet marxism did not.

4 posted on 08/26/2002 1:55:30 PM PDT by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
,,, valid points you're making here. I'm seeing this where I am, in New Zealand. Centre-left Party with a majority in Parliament but they've largely retained the free market framework established in the mid 1980s which presently sees us ranked as the third most deregulated economy in the world. They'll have to retain it to pay for the state of the art welfare system they wish to see balancing any gains we may make in economic growth.
5 posted on 08/26/2002 2:06:44 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: madfly
ping
6 posted on 08/26/2002 2:20:35 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: Tailgunner Joe
The Soviet bloc disintegrated because it could not cope with nationalist dissent in Poland and the Baltic states and more generally because a single economic and political system could not meet the needs of vastly different societies and peoples.

Darn, America was stupid. Over 100,000 dead, and trillions of dollars spent fighting something which just like, you know, sorta like collapsed all by itself due to internal contradictions and stuff.

7 posted on 08/26/2002 2:24:30 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
The system you are describing is not new. It was pioneered by Benito Mussolini.
8 posted on 08/26/2002 2:36:05 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
bttt
9 posted on 08/26/2002 3:23:35 PM PDT by madfly
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To: LarryLied
Darn, America was stupid. Over 100,000 dead, and trillions of dollars spent fighting something which just like, you know, sorta like collapsed all by itself due to internal contradictions and stuff.

But when? 100 years from now after they had conquered all of Europe and the Third World?
I'm sure that the Communists, once they took over most of the world, would just let the US alone. NOT.

Now I understand you positiions. You are a foreign policy appeaser who hates anyone who reminds you that there are real fights.

10 posted on 08/26/2002 4:34:11 PM PDT by rmlew
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To: rmlew
Detecting sarcasm is not your strong point, is it?
11 posted on 08/26/2002 4:49:10 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: LarryLied
Sarcasm is hard to detect in plaintext. Tone doesn't exist here. Please use emoticons.
12 posted on 08/26/2002 5:35:31 PM PDT by rmlew
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To: Tailgunner Joe
The context of this piece should be understood clearly. The communist chinese are running a massive and growing trade surplus with the US: in part because of their low wages but also because they do a good job of putting non tarrif barriers in front of US and most foreign companies. They game the system very well indeed.

They have contributed nothing to make the system work. They have only worked to exploit it. If the system fails they want the onus squarly put on the US. The writer is pure puke.
13 posted on 08/27/2002 5:09:43 AM PDT by ckilmer
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To: Tailgunner Joe
The context of this piece should be understood clearly. The communist chinese are running a massive and growing trade surplus with the US: in part because of their low wages but also because they do a good job of putting non tarrif barriers in front of US and most foreign companies. They game the system very well indeed.

They have contributed nothing to make the system work. They have only worked to exploit it. If the system fails they want the onus squarly put on the US. The writer is pure puke.
14 posted on 08/27/2002 5:16:22 AM PDT by ckilmer
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To: Tailgunner Joe; lavaroise; JanL; Orion78; bat-boy; EditorTFP
When did Marxism disappear? Not only are there significant pockets throughout the West, in addition, a number of East Bloc nations now look back fondly upon their past states of existance. Not to mention the fact that some Marxist nations never "collapsed" (assuming you even buy the 1989 - 1991 "events" in E. Europe / Central Asia at face value...) at all and are still tyrannical Marxist states.

Beyond these flaws, the article does make a number of excellent points. After reading "The Nexus and the Olive Tree" I was left with the impression that the world described by Friedman and Fukuyama was suprisingly similar to the "converged" state of existance that was much feared by the John Birch Society et al during the early 1960s.

Part of the antidote for the Fukuyamaian rehash of self destructive British naivete 1919 - 1939

15 posted on 08/27/2002 8:02:54 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Many reasons exist for why the Soviet bloc collapsed, but -- contrary to conventional opinion -- economic inefficiencies were not central among them. The Soviet bloc disintegrated because it could not cope with nationalist dissent in Poland and the Baltic states and more generally because a single economic and political system could not meet the needs of vastly different societies and peoples.

The writer is an idiot, I quit reading after this.

16 posted on 08/27/2002 8:05:26 AM PDT by tet68
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To: shaggy eel
A Friedmanian wet dream.... on line stock markets, social safety nets and ecotourism. In other words, nauseating 3rd Way incrementalism...Gramsci would be proud!
17 posted on 08/27/2002 8:05:48 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: rmlew
Most have a very poor education regarding all of the mistakes that the appeasing nihilists who ran the UK 1919 - 1939 made. We ("we" meaning the Western, mainstream, Fukuyamaian, liberal, corporatists) now repeat them.
18 posted on 08/27/2002 8:10:00 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: rmlew
Sarcasm is hard to detect in plaintext.

I don't think so. It does require paying attention to the habits of the poster.

19 posted on 08/27/2002 8:25:27 AM PDT by js1138
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To: belmont_mark
"When did Marxism disappear? "

Spot on! All one has to do is listen the the Hilda beast to know Marxism is alive and lurking waiting for just the right person to implement it.

20 posted on 08/27/2002 9:00:03 AM PDT by Wurlitzer
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