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As they say in Kentucky; "Cymru am bith".
News Wales (UK) ^ | 8/26/02 | Unknown

Posted on 08/29/2002 9:51:38 AM PDT by scouse

Did the Welsh discover America?

26/8/2002

A team of historians and researchers announced today that Radio Carbon dating evidence, and the discovery of ancient British style artefacts and inscriptions in the American Midwest, provide the strongest indications yet" that British explorers, under the Prince Madoc ap Meurig, arrived in the country during the 6th Century and set up colonies there.

Research team members have known the location of burial sites of Madoc's close relatives in Wales for some time, it emerged today; but they have decided to break their self-imposed silence in order that their research be fully known and understood. DNA evidence could provide vital new leads, they say.

"We have a mass of remarkable evidence," said British historian Alan Wilson, who has been working with Jim Michael of the Ancient Kentucke Historical Association since 1989. "As experts in ancient British history, we were approached by Jim and visited locations in the Mid West with him," he added.

Many of the grave mounds found in the American mid West, including those at Bat Creek, Tennessee, are ancient British in origin and design, Wilson said. Jim Michael added, "the stone tablet found at Bat Creek in 1889 included an inscription written in Coelbren, an ancient British alphabet known and recorded by historians and bards down the ages."

Wilson said that his research had brought him into contact with very similar alphabet inscriptions in Britain, Europe and the Middle East. "The components of the alphabet derive from the earliest days of the Khumric (Welsh) people," he added, "and were used along their migration routes to Wales in antiquity."

Remainder of story can be accessed at address posted


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Alabama; US: Delaware; US: Georgia; US: Indiana; US: Kentucky; US: North Dakota; US: Tennessee; US: West Virginia; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: alabama; alanwilson; ancientnavigation; batcreek; brendan; caradocofllancarfan; cherokee; coelbren; delaware; epigraphyandlanguage; georgia; godsgravesglyphs; gwennangorn; helixmakemineadouble; indiana; jimmichael; kentucky; louisville; madoc; madocapmeurig; madocmorfran; mandan; navigation; northdakota; princemadoc; richardhakluyt; tennessee; unitedkingdom; wales; welsh; westvirginia
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Looks like they're going to take away Columbus Day and give us a day named after a guy whose name we can't pronounce.
1 posted on 08/29/2002 9:51:38 AM PDT by scouse
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To: blam
interesting ping!
2 posted on 08/29/2002 9:53:31 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: scouse
So is it possible the Welsh pre-date the Indians, and lay claim to a bit of casino land...?
3 posted on 08/29/2002 9:54:09 AM PDT by paulklenk
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To: scouse
Wilson and Blackett were also commissioned to produce a detailed genealogy of the Bush family by former President George Bush (senior).

That final sentence is peculiar. These guys sound like experts in Welsh and Arthurian history, what's the connection to the Bush family?

4 posted on 08/29/2002 9:57:57 AM PDT by Notforprophet
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To: paulklenk
...it is possible the Welsh pre-date the Indians, and lay claim to a bit of casino land....?

Maybe they had African slaves too.

5 posted on 08/29/2002 10:00:10 AM PDT by stars & stripes forever
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To: paulklenk; blam
is it possible the Welsh pre-date the Indians

That would probably not be the case. However, the location of Avalon is still not been verified. Tales of land to the west go back pretty far.

6 posted on 08/29/2002 10:02:59 AM PDT by RightWhale
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To: paulklenk
Possible bogus aspects of this story are suggested by the fact that Madoc sailed to America not in the 6th century, but in the 12th century, around the year 1122, in a ship called the Gwennan Gorn, along with nine other ships.

Early settlers around Louisville found quite a bit of evidence they considered Welsh, especially that it was used as a kind of diplomatic and "educated" lingua-franca by the various Indian tribes, much like the Europeans then used Latin.

Several stone forts atop mountains in Georgia, Alabama, and Tennessee that obviously were desperate attempts at defence by some outnumbered European people, plus Cherokee and other legends suggesting that they had to overcome a scattered white (blue) eyed people en route from the Gulf Coast area to their home in the southern Mountains, migration circa 650-720 AD...

Celtic inscriptions dated to the 480-720 AD era are atop several mountains in West Virginia.

7 posted on 08/29/2002 10:03:07 AM PDT by crystalk
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To: crystalk
Some of Thomas jefferson's writings indicated that he believed Lewis and Clark might find blue-eyed natives speaking Welsh in the interior of North America.
8 posted on 08/29/2002 10:07:19 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
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To: scouse
Of course the Welsh didn't discover Amerca, the Muslims did.

http://www.jannah.org/articles/precolumbus.html
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/before-columbus.html
9 posted on 08/29/2002 10:07:34 AM PDT by Tancred
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To: scouse
Near Fort Mountain State Park in North Georgia, there are remains of stone walls, long and built low. Legend has it a white race built them hundreds of years ago. They eventually disappeared, one theory is that they were killed off by Indians. The web site identifies the walls as built by Indians, but the signs in the park identify the builders as white-skinned and fair-haired.

http://gastateparks.org/info.asp?id=42&linkval=fortmt&siteid=5
10 posted on 08/29/2002 10:08:39 AM PDT by Private Joker
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To: Tancred
Stupid infidel should have written "America", not "Amerca"! Down with Amerca!
11 posted on 08/29/2002 10:09:24 AM PDT by Tancred
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To: crystalk
Celtic inscriptions dated to the 480-720 AD era are atop several mountains in West Virginia

Assuming the inscriptions were in stone, how is such close dating done with no radio carbon, decomposition or similar things to place it in time?

12 posted on 08/29/2002 10:09:56 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: scouse
Isn't this in the Book of Mormon?

What a kick in the a** if that's all really true!

13 posted on 08/29/2002 10:11:51 AM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: scouse; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs
An archaeologist with too much time on his hands bump!
14 posted on 08/29/2002 10:20:02 AM PDT by El Sordo
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To: CholeraJoe
That, of course, was a reference to the Mandan of North Dakota, who had a number of very curious [sexual& other] customs aimed at the genetic preservation of an elite in-group of some 10%, and who furthermore made a European-style stockade with outer moat, and surprisingly solid houses.

There were many Celtic loan words in their vocabulary, and they made a round leather coracle or bull-boat to pole along in the Missouri R.

All who saw the Mandan were aware that they represented a Euro-Amerind [mestizo] people of some kind, probably mixed at a not-too-remote date, since even Lewis & Clark said that all hair and eye colors seen in Virginia whites could be seen, by exception, in the [two large] Mandan villages.

Runaway Norsemen from the Greenland and/or Vinland colonies, see Kensington Runestone, have also been suggested; the two are not mutually exclusive, but archaeological remains suggest the Mandan had been driven down the Ohio and up the Miss/Mo River systems, until at length they reached an area where their superior agricultural and living technology gave them an advantage over other tribes' numbers, enough to survive.

The Mandan had a vassal (slave) sub-tribe, the Hidatsa, who dwelt near and around them on the prairie and seem to have picked up some of their ways at 2d hand. IIRC the language of the Hidatsa was Siouxan, however, while that of the Mandan was a mix of Celtic with Shawneean or Ohio-Valley tribes' languages.

The Mandan mostly perished in a smallpox epidemic about 1839-40 after their chief had turned down a US offer to vaccinate the whole tribe. Survivors took refuge and mingled with the Sioux and other tribes of Indians before any adequate ethnological study could be done. See accounts of them in Catlin and in Lewis & Clark.

15 posted on 08/29/2002 10:20:40 AM PDT by crystalk
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To: KC Burke
By the alphabet and language written (Celtic), and by what the message said. It was Christian, and told them how to calculate the dates for Christmas, and told of Christ's having been born of a virgin at Bethlehem.

At least one whole issue in the 1980s of Wonderful West Virginia was about this.

16 posted on 08/29/2002 10:23:29 AM PDT by crystalk
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To: Private Joker
Another one in Alabama called Fort Mtn also, I think, and at least one in Tn. Evidence also nr Lookout Mtn, Tn/Ga.
17 posted on 08/29/2002 10:26:49 AM PDT by crystalk
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To: paulklenk
Where's my casino ?
18 posted on 08/29/2002 10:29:34 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: crystalk
Could there have been two different Welsh chiefs with similar names?

PRINCE MADOC AB OWAIN (12th century) and Prince Madoc ap Meurig,(Mentioned in article)

19 posted on 08/29/2002 10:30:04 AM PDT by scouse
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Bump for later reference.
20 posted on 08/29/2002 10:32:17 AM PDT by Liberty Tree Surgeon
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To: crystalk
If you believe Farley Mowat in Farfarer the original settlers of Iceland, Greenland and North America were the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Scotland who predated the Vikings by several hundred years in all of those locations. This is not too farfetched then.
21 posted on 08/29/2002 10:32:41 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
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To: CholeraJoe
This is all very interesting but everyone knows that Algore found and invented America.
22 posted on 08/29/2002 10:42:38 AM PDT by linuxnut
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To: paulklenk
Does that mean Sean Connery can be President?;^)
23 posted on 08/29/2002 10:42:50 AM PDT by WIladyconservative
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To: WIladyconservative
Does that mean Sean Connery can be President?;^)

Connery is Scottish. I prefer Katherine Zeta Jones. She's Welsh.


24 posted on 08/29/2002 10:52:59 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
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To: Jim Noble
The Welsh are not Jews nor are they middle eastern.....those supposed folks in the book of mormon were supposedly JEWS from the middle east.

Since WE HAVE ACTUAL PROOF that the Vikings were in North America and they were fair haired....most likely the folks mentioned in this article were likely to have been NORTHERN EUROPEANS or WELSHMEN. I have even read that St. Brendan, the Irish Saint, came to the NEW WORLD in the 5th or 6th century.

The Vikings were great explorers...even went to Constantinople in the 3rd or 4th centuries, I think.

25 posted on 08/29/2002 10:59:44 AM PDT by crazykatz
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To: Notforprophet
The dirty little secret. Our leaders are descended from European royalty scum.

Lots of them.

26 posted on 08/29/2002 11:02:48 AM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: CholeraJoe
My little daughter, out of the blue yesterday, asked, "Mommy-if you died, who would take care of us while daddy went to work?"

While she was stammering out an answer about Nana and Auntie, I said, "Why, Catherine Zeta-Jones, of course".

Slept on the couch.

27 posted on 08/29/2002 11:06:36 AM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: scouse
Bump for closer review.
28 posted on 08/29/2002 11:11:41 AM PDT by Spirited
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To: Jim Noble
A slip of the tongue like that will do it every time.
29 posted on 08/29/2002 11:54:20 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
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To: Black Agnes; RightWhale
The 582 date is interesting because it is in the Dark Ages and only 40 years after Mike Baillie thinks a comet fragment plunged into the Celtic Sea. A good reason to set out for other areas.

Also, there is a plaque at Fort Morgan at the mouth of Mobile Bay that commerrates prince Madoc's arrival here in 1170AD (Erected by modern day believers)

30 posted on 08/29/2002 12:13:01 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
588 years is pretty long for a transatlantic voyage, almost epic proportions. They sure knew how to build boats, though, or at least old Madoc did.
31 posted on 08/29/2002 12:33:08 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: Jim Noble
Honesty isn't always the best policy.
32 posted on 08/29/2002 12:38:11 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: scouse
Looks like they're going to take away Columbus Day and give us a day named after a guy whose name we can't pronounce

LOL!

33 posted on 08/29/2002 1:07:33 PM PDT by pabianice
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To: Tancred
Nonsense. The Muslim's didn't discover America -- the Gao'uld did.


34 posted on 08/29/2002 1:17:33 PM PDT by pabianice
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To: Jim Noble
No, it's not true. Early in America's history, immigrants saw themselves as the "new Israel." The Old Testament was taught and studied a lot more in their churches than it probably is today. The Book of Mormon comes out of that way of thinking. However, that is not to say that Jews did not come here early on. They were scattered and I personally believe that early peoples took to the seas a lot more often than we would believe possible today. There is a cave in KY which has Roman coins supposedly dated from the 2nd century AD believed to have been brought here by escaping Jews. I have not researched that to know whether or not further research supports that or has been "proven" to be a hoax. Freepers seem to be well-read on this subject and hopefully may enlighten me on the findings. I do believe that Madoc was here and Brendan may have been as well. And who knows who else?
35 posted on 08/29/2002 1:22:22 PM PDT by twigs
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To: scouse
Hmmm, given your "name," I suspect you to be quite proximate the the land of places named Llllllllemyrghryhyaderithoroglyth or some such! ;), it ain't but a few miles from the Mersey. But I digress...

I hope these discoveries are bona fide because it will add even more ammunition to the arsenals of those of us who want to resist the multicultaralisation of the USA. At our roots, we are a British land. British culture has always been the essence of our core values and system. Granted, we were borne out of rebellion, but the rebellion was of British men against fellow British men. At the end of the day, we must not forget from whence we have come.

36 posted on 08/29/2002 1:24:27 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: crazykatz
The Welsh are not Jews nor are they middle eastern

I wonder. My husband, who is supposedly mostly German and some English, looks very Mediterranean. A Moroccan asked him recently if he was Arabic. When I mentioned my genealogical research to our family doctor, he mentioned that my husband looks a lot like some of his Welsh immigrant patients who are working here. I just thought that was very interesting.

37 posted on 08/29/2002 1:26:01 PM PDT by twigs
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To: scouse
Cymru am bith

After consuming a couple of gallons of stout ale, most Scotsman utter the same thing.

38 posted on 08/29/2002 1:26:18 PM PDT by SGCOS
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To: twigs
English And Welsh Are Races Apart
39 posted on 08/29/2002 2:54:34 PM PDT by blam
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To: RightWhale
"588 years is pretty long for a transatlantic voyage, almost epic proportions. They sure knew how to build boats, though, or at least old Madoc did."

Hee,hee, Did you not see the mention of two different dates for 'ol Madoc's voyage in the article, 582AD and 1170AD?

40 posted on 08/29/2002 2:57:13 PM PDT by blam
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To: twigs
Was America A Phoenician Colony?
41 posted on 08/29/2002 3:03:06 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Oh, two voyages 588 years apart. They don't build Madocs like that anymore either.
42 posted on 08/29/2002 3:45:54 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: crystalk
> the fact that Madoc sailed to America not in the 6th century, but in the 12th century, around the year 1122, in a ship called the Gwennan Gorn, along with nine other ships.

Were they using maps from the Viking AAA? {ggg}.

43 posted on 08/29/2002 4:51:35 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: crystalk
>the alphabet and language written (Celtic), and by what the message said. It was Christian, and told them how to calculate the dates for Christmas, and told of Christ's having been born of a virgin at Bethlehem.

That's very interesting. Wonder where they picked that up? The Celts were of course VERY well established all throughout Western and NW Europe and Britain by the time of Jesus. Could have migrated to America from any of those European countries, not just Britain or Wales (as their Chambers of Commerce would love for us to believe.)

44 posted on 08/29/2002 4:57:41 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: CholeraJoe
>Farley Mowat in Farfarer the original settlers of Iceland, Greenland and North America were the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Scotland who predated the Vikings by several hundred years

Do you have a tighter date than that? Technically, the pre-Celts were either (1) Israelites who left Egypt by sea prior to the overland Exodus, or (2) Israelites who left Moses merry band after the overland Exodus but prior to the Assyrian Captivity of the Northern Kingdom ~922 BC. That would be almost 2,000 years before the Vikings discovered America.

However the many different and dispersed Celtic tribes had lots of time between their appearance at the same time and place the Northern Kingdom (Lost Tribes of Israel) appeared in history ~610 BC, and the time of the Vikings.

(For readers unfamiliar with Celtic history, please click on my LostTribe Profile below and check out the 3-MINUTE HISTORY.)

45 posted on 08/29/2002 5:05:39 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: twigs
>looks a lot like some of his Welsh immigrant patients who are working here. I just thought that was very interesting.

It is very interesting. The Brits make a big thing about the "darker and smaller" people seen around Cornwall, Wales and Brittainy as being Celts.

I checked this out when I was there studying Celtic History at Oxford. Someone had studied the subject and detemined these people were simply the result of some intermixing with survivors the very many Mediterranean based shipwrecks off Penzance, the Isles of Scilly, and the British and French western seacoasts in general.

(BTW, only some British based Celtic scholars insist these people are the only Celts in Britain. The far larger Celtic communities in continental Europe do not see eye to eye with the Brits on many things Celtic. Not even the Irish agree with the Brits, for the Irish do not look like these residents of Cornwall and Wales, some from Isle of Man, etc. When I was at Trinity College Dublin studing the Celts, if you ask the man on the street the meaning of "Celtic" you often hear "Catholic". As in the Holy Celtic Church of Ireland. {ggg}. )

46 posted on 08/29/2002 5:23:13 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Rubbish. The pre-Celts were simply the population of Western Europe that was living in Western Europe prior to the invasions of the Celts. The Basques, for instance, are pre-Celtic; their language in fact is non-Indo-European, and not related to any other living language. The pre-Celts were living in Western Europe for tens of thousands of years before there was any such thing called "Israel" or "Jews". There was no migration of "lost tribes" of Jews into Western Europe; pre-celts, in fact, are far too early, whilst celts and other Indo-Europeans are too well documented as being from Europe, not the middle east.
47 posted on 08/29/2002 5:25:10 PM PDT by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: LostTribe
It is very interesting. The Brits make a big thing about the "darker and smaller" people seen around Cornwall, Wales and Brittainy as being Celts.

I checked this out when I was there studying Celtic History at Oxford. Someone had studied the subject and detemined these people were simply the result of some intermixing with survivors the very many Mediterranean based shipwrecks off Penzance, the Isles of Scilly, and the British and French western seacoasts in general.

Their is no need to resort to fanciful shipwrecks; in fact "mediterranean" whites have been living in Western Europe since the ice ages. These "smaller and darker" people are actually pre-Celtic, not Celtic; they simply happened to have hung on to the language of their earlier Celtic conquerors. Their original pre-Celtic languages are now completely lost to history.

48 posted on 08/29/2002 5:41:47 PM PDT by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
>Rubbish...There was no migration of "lost tribes" of Jews into Western Europe;

Of course not, and nowhere did I say that. And if you bother to read before you speak you won't look so silly.

Please click on my LostTribe profile first, then take 3 minutes to read the 3-MINUTE HISTORY and come up to speed. When you return we can continue discussing the Celts on an intellectual level.

49 posted on 08/29/2002 5:43:24 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
These were Irish monks, sometimes called CD's or culdees, or celi dei. Perhaps the legend of St Brendan has behind it, a variety of the sights and sounds experienced by these seekers of solitary hermitage on rocks in the isolated ocean.

In the story of course, Brendan does in the end reach a continent. He travels inland in a lovely verdant land for 40 days, and reaches the bank of a mighty river flowing westward, onward, but there meets a young man who gives him a poor report of things, so he returns to the coast and sails back to Ireland.

50 posted on 08/29/2002 6:29:22 PM PDT by crystalk
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