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Ancient Illinois Village Unearths Lode Of Questions
University Of Illinois ^ | 9-02-2002 | Andrea Lynn

Posted on 09/02/2002 4:23:13 PM PDT by blam

Contact: Andrea Lynn
a-lynn@uiuc.edu
217-333 -2177
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Ancient Illinois village unearths lode of questions

CHAMPAIGN, Ill. -- Digging under a blazing sun in an Illinois cornfield, archaeologists this summer unearthed a fascinating anomaly: a 900-year-old square hilltop village. The discovery near Shiloh -- about 15 miles southeast of St. Louis -- challenges previous notions of the area's first people and adds a piece to the puzzle that was Cahokia, a huge "mother culture" that suddenly appeared, and just as suddenly vanished, leaving only traces of its majesty and meaning in the 11th century.

Until now, archaeologists believed that large Cahokian populations settled only on the floodplains and that their villages sprawled in free-form fashion. This "new" ridge-sitting village with four linear sides and a rigid orientation of buildings "was mind-blowing," said lead archaeologist Timothy Pauketat, a professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. "I can't think of another village in this area that's like this." The great mystery: What was the purpose of this unique hinterlands village 12 miles from the major population center in Cahokia, and why did it have a large central residence and religious structures -- a plaza and four temples, all atypical of Cahokian villages?

Pauketat's hunch is that it was a farming village, a "feeder" for Cahokia, and an administrative outpost where a top official and, perhaps, functionaries, oversaw farming and "controlled that piece of the economy." The "evidence of authority" in the hinterlands "makes Cahokia look more like a centralized civilization and less like an elusive free gathering of Native Americans," Pauketat said.

University archaeologists have been digging near or at the so-called "Grossmann Site" for several years, but it was only this summer that Illinois graduate student and chief supervisor Susan Alt, Pauketat and a group of Illinois students found the third and fourth sides -- now only stains in the ground – of the village, the 75 small rectangular houses that lined the sides, and the four giant temples. In the center of each temple, they found the holes that once held the telephone-pole-sized roof supports. The temples had huge vaulted ceilings and thatched roofs, "something you usually see on a mound top. We were completely shocked." They also found some temple "ritual debris," including a figurine -- fire-splintered into perhaps 2,000 pieces, plus crystals and burned tools. These probably are "the remains of annual ritual burnings, ceremonies called 'renewing the temple.' "

Cahokia was "drawing great numbers of people into it," Pauketat said. "It goes from 1,000 to 10,000 people in a matter of 50 years. Most went to Cahokia, but some ended up in places like this, sent to help administer the farmers." Why so many people relocated so rapidly is still a mystery, he said.

Some archaeologists, including Pauketat, think of Cahokia as a mother culture. "They do something that is entirely unique and they do it much earlier. Within a century or two, people up and down the Mississippi and across the coastal plain of the Southeast are copying them, so you get Mississippian mounds and large settlements, but you never get anything that rivals this. So, Cahokia is just a moment, an experiment in civilization, that falters and goes away and never really comes back."

### The National Science Foundation and the National Geographic Society also supported the dig.


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Illinois; US: Mississippi
KEYWORDS: ancient; archaeology; cahokia; decalogue; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; grossmannsite; history; illinois; lode; loslunas; mississippi; susanalt; tencommandments; timothypauketat; unearths; village
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I notice that it wasn't mentioned that maybe, just maybe, these people may have been from an entirely different culture. (I would like to see your speculations.) Weren't there some 'giant' skeletons found in this general area?
1 posted on 09/02/2002 4:23:14 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Adena Burial Mounds
2 posted on 09/02/2002 4:26:19 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs
Ancient village people bump.
3 posted on 09/02/2002 4:26:35 PM PDT by El Sordo
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To: blam
Land Of Giants
4 posted on 09/02/2002 4:32:30 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
"Weren't there some 'giant' skeletons found in this general area?"

"Giants" have been associated with many of the mounds.

Moundsville, Alabama boasts a small forward (6' 6", as I recall), who was buried with the trappings of authority.

5 posted on 09/02/2002 4:34:14 PM PDT by okie01
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To: blam
500 BC Effigy Mounds in NE Iowa. "America BC" all over again.
6 posted on 09/02/2002 4:34:42 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: blam
A Tradition Of Giants
7 posted on 09/02/2002 4:38:31 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Giants In Our Midst
8 posted on 09/02/2002 4:44:57 PM PDT by blam
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To: okie01
Hilltop in Illinois?
9 posted on 09/02/2002 4:45:41 PM PDT by Thebaddog
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To: blam
Didn't the indians avoid W. Virginia as it was populated with a different people?
10 posted on 09/02/2002 5:03:42 PM PDT by TheLurkerX
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To: TheLurkerX
Still is.
11 posted on 09/02/2002 5:10:20 PM PDT by Lessismore
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To: Lessismore
ROFL!!!
12 posted on 09/02/2002 5:17:51 PM PDT by TN4Liberty
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To: TheLurkerX
"Didn't the indians avoid W. Virginia as it was populated with a different people?"

I don't know. I was hoping someone with knowledge in this area would show up and supply some answers. I know very little about all this and am hoping to learn.

13 posted on 09/02/2002 5:19:22 PM PDT by blam
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To: TN4Liberty; TheLurkerX
You can always leave it to FReepers to instantaneously give the perfect (smart-@$%) answer to any question. ROFLOL.
14 posted on 09/02/2002 5:27:54 PM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: blam
I have to wonder about the author of that site and whether he was using for "scripture" something taken from what he thought were the Akashic Records. Ha ha ha.

For example, it's a common misconception that the passage in Genesis (6:1-3) says that the offspring of "the sons of G-d" (whatever that means) and the "daughters of men" were giants. It doesn't say this. The passage remarks that there were giants in those days. It then says (v 3), referring back to verse 2, that in addition to there having been giants in those days, the offspring of the SOG and DOM became mighty men of reknown. It doesn't, however, say that the MMOR were giants. What the text actually says, though, is often the least concern of many.
The biblical account then continues by saying that the offspring of the Sons of God and the daughters of men were "the giants who were in the earth in those days." So numerous did these giants become that they were a threat to the survival of the patriarchal race. Accordingly, the scripture tell us, God gave Enoch a magical or miraculous sword, called the "Sword of Methuselah," with which to slay them in a great purge. The race of giants then dwindled and finally became extinct, Goliath being the last of his race, slain by young David, future King of Israel, sometime prior to 1,000 B.C.
Sentence 1: The passage in question doesn't say this.

Sentence 2: Scripture (at least that associated with Genesis, ie., the Bible, the Torah) doesn't say this.

Sentence 3: Ditto. No sword. No purge.

Sentence 4: Ditto.

Sentence 5: Ditto. Goliath from Gath was a Philistine, hardly the last of his race.

Apparently Goliath had at least one big brother, Lahmi, who was killed, subsequent to Goliath's death at the hand of David, by a guy from Bethlehem. The only one referred to in scripture as being a giant (of the famed Anakim) and the last of his kind was Og king of Bashan (Deut 3:11). This was well over a couple of centuries before King David. Whatever the cause of Goliath's large condition, it wasn't, at least according to the Bible, because he was one of the Anakim.

Funny, in this context, that those who maintain that Goliath was the last of his race of the giants and that the giants referred to as the Anakim in Deuteronomy (B) were the same ones referred to in Genesis 6:1-3 (A), don't ask the question of where these giants came from if all humans alive at the time of B were descendents of the eight who made it through the flood as sole representatives of the human race, the giants A being antediluvian. Their answer? 1. They weren't human and only humans were in the ark? But they were called, according to these people, mighty men of reknown, the offspring of humans and "the sons of G-d". They aren't described as 'inhuman'. 2. These are all mythological tales and we can't attest to the complete facticity of any particular one? If so, then how to attest to the facticity of any? They become, then, simply the building blocks from which to erect entertaining tales about such things as the Sword of Methuselah. Meanwhile, people who have no little or no knowledge about the Bible hear these things, see the absurdities, and then assume that it's the Bible that is the source and go on to ridicule it on places like sites on the skeptic ring for saying things it never did. It's disheartening, though hardly surprising.
15 posted on 09/02/2002 5:42:04 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: blam
Thanks blam....I have spent many enjoyable hours reading about the Adena and Hopewell burial and effigy mounds but I have always found the Mississippian culture (Cahokia) more interesting....probably because there was more info and so many beautiful artifacts....now they have hit pay dirt again which will shed even more light on their culture.
16 posted on 09/02/2002 6:11:54 PM PDT by ruoflaw
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To: aruanan
FWIW

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Numbers 13:33
And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Deuteronomy 2
10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;
11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims.

17 posted on 09/02/2002 6:15:23 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
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To: RightWhale; JudyB1938; Ernest_at_the_Beach; #3Fan; d4now; crystalk; Carry_Okie
FYI.
18 posted on 09/02/2002 6:28:18 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
What were the major crops that were grown? Corn?
19 posted on 09/02/2002 6:31:33 PM PDT by sawsalimb
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To: blam
While waiting for a Cahokia expert to show up:

Years ago, when I visited the site, the park displayed a reconstructed section of a perimeter wall around the Great Mound. I assume this was based on posthole diggings and that it's still there.

The wall surprised me. I would have taken a simple palisade in stride, but the reconstruction depicted a bastioned wall with fighting platforms and a complex gate. (All wood, of course.) No ditching was depicted, but the effect was, nonetheless, to suggest a considerably more sophisticated style of warfare than I would have imagined. I had recently read a very little bit (strictly a layman's idle curiosity) about stone age hillforts in Britain, and that was the comparison that popped into my head.

I wonder if anyone here knows if this kind of fortification is found in other pre-Columbian sites and whether there is related physical evidence (of fires, human remains, etc.) for large scale fighting among the mound builders?

20 posted on 09/02/2002 6:34:38 PM PDT by sphinx
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To: sphinx
These are just a short way down (south) the road from me:

Dauphin Island Shell Mounds

21 posted on 09/02/2002 6:48:51 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
IIRC Norse remains have been found far from the Atlantic.

From one of my favorite articles in The Atlantic Monthly, The Diffusionists Have Landed:

The Norwegian archaeologists Helge and Anne Stine Ingstad's famous identification, in 1961, of a Viking settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, from just after A.D. 1000 is, of course, a notable exception, no longer in dispute. But that discovery has so far gone nowhere. The Norse settlers, who may have numbered as many as 160 and stayed for three years or longer, seem to have made no lasting impression on the aboriginal skraellings that, according to Norse sagas, they encountered, and to have avoided being influenced in turn. The traditions of the Micmac people, modern-day inhabitants of the area, have not been seriously investigated; another people historically associated with this area, the reputedly fair-skinned Beothuks, have been extinct since 1829. The Vikings came, kept to themselves, and left -- that appears to be as much revision of the long-standing history of New World settlement as the hard-core academic establishment will entertain.

Snip

To many, the inventionists have clearly gained the upper hand, having marshaled shards, spearpoints, and other relics that indicate the independent cultural development of a native people whose Ice Age ancestors came overland from Northeast Asia. Still, the diffusionists have a habit of raising awkward questions -- questions that even some mainstream scholars find hard to ignore, much less to explain away. Who carved Phoenician-era Iberian script into a stone found at Grave Creek, West Virginia? How did a large stone block incised with medieval Norse runes make its way to Kensington, Minnesota? Why would a rough version of the Ten Commandments appear in Old Hebrew script on a boulder-sized tablet near Los Lunas, New Mexico? Conversely, how could the sweet potato, known to be indigenous to the Americas, have become a food staple throughout Polynesia and the Pacific basin as early as A.D. 400? And why would dozens of eleventh- to thirteenth-century temple sculptures in Karnataka, India, include depictions of what appears to be American maize?

I love is when random data from totally unrelated sources play hell with any conventional whizdumb.
22 posted on 09/02/2002 7:03:54 PM PDT by Carry_Okie
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To: blam
the four giant temples

Why are these large buildings always considered as temples? Especially when we know zero about their daily life.

23 posted on 09/02/2002 7:17:36 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: Thebaddog
Hilltop in Illinois?

Ain't no way...I remember the locals telling me that if a dog shat, and then it snowed, everyone broke out their cross country skies.

24 posted on 09/02/2002 7:20:16 PM PDT by ErnBatavia
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To: Carry_Okie
LOL.... Us diffusionists and especially we catastrophists have to fight for a place at the table.
25 posted on 09/02/2002 7:28:31 PM PDT by blam
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To: RightWhale
"Why are these large buildings always considered as temples? Especially when we know zero about their daily life."

Hey fella, don't rock the boat or your grant money will be pulled.

26 posted on 09/02/2002 7:31:12 PM PDT by blam
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To: Carry_Okie
did a large stone block incised with medieval Norse runes make its way to
Kensington, Minnesota?


Hey, don't leave out The Heavener (sp?) Runestone in Oklahoma!

I don't know it's ever been shown conclusively if it is the real deal or some
collegiate prank...
27 posted on 09/02/2002 7:34:28 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA
The Mystery Of The Heaverner Runestone

I am a fan of Gloria Farley.

28 posted on 09/02/2002 7:44:39 PM PDT by blam
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To: El Sordo

29 posted on 09/02/2002 7:44:53 PM PDT by keithtoo
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To: blam
In Manchester, Tennessee there is an interesting site that the indians built with stone and dirt. You would have to take a tour to get an idea of just how strong and easy to defend this structrue was.

Old Stone Fort

.

30 posted on 09/02/2002 7:48:54 PM PDT by Inge_CAV
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To: blam
I didn't know Illinois existed back then.
31 posted on 09/02/2002 7:59:45 PM PDT by mtg
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To: blam
There's always Art Bell's guest list. IIRC, he's had this guy on that claims there is a cave in Illinois (or is it
Indiana?) that was formerly stuffed with archealogical treasures from a completely different era.

And wouldn't you know it, but it was looted in the past 20 years or so, AND someone DYNAMITED the entrance to keep
such adventurers as himself from finding that the treasure trove has been looted and melted down.

32 posted on 09/02/2002 8:23:45 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Calvin Locke
"And wouldn't you know it, but it was looted in the past 20 years or so, AND someone DYNAMITED the entrance to keep such adventurers as himself from finding that the treasure trove has been looted and melted down."

I think I've seen this story on one of the documentary channels.

33 posted on 09/02/2002 8:27:25 PM PDT by blam
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To: VOA
When I was in grade school in the 40's in Tulsa, we were taught conclusively that the Vikings had been in the area and that there were various stones with writing on them.
34 posted on 09/02/2002 9:06:10 PM PDT by JudyB1938
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To: blam
Beyond a certain point, it becomes easier to explain various geographic migrations or visitations by alternative "unidentified" means...

(Also, posthole interpretations are in the eye of the beholder :-).

35 posted on 09/02/2002 10:14:41 PM PDT by SteveH
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To: blam
So, Cahokia is just a moment, an experiment in civilization, that falters and goes away and never really comes back."

It came back as St. Louis. :^)

I live in this latitude of Illinois, there is a huge hill within about 15 miles of me that is said to be of the Indians. Plus Burrows Cave is within about 20 miles in the other direction, although the artifacts from that cave seem to be from thousands of years ago instead of from Cahokia's accepted era. Maybe there was a major Indian thouroughfare along the approximate route of Route 40 and Interstate 70. I'll have to keep my eyes open for anomalies when I'm out mushroom hunting. :^)

36 posted on 09/03/2002 10:22:39 PM PDT by #3Fan
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To: Calvin Locke
There's always Art Bell's guest list. IIRC, he's had this guy on that claims there is a cave in Illinois (or is it Indiana?) that was formerly stuffed with archealogical treasures from a completely different era.

If it's Burrow's Cave, it hasn't been dynamited. The artifacts from it are from ancient India, like 4000 - 5000 years ago, I think. There were 20,000 artifacts, too many to be carved by pranksters.

37 posted on 09/03/2002 10:29:31 PM PDT by #3Fan
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To: Sabertooth
You may appreciate this article.
38 posted on 09/03/2002 11:31:47 PM PDT by doglot
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To: #3Fan
Probably a different cave. This guy was whining about damage that "only could have been done" by dynamite.

And he "knows" that it must have been the looters...

39 posted on 09/03/2002 11:46:09 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Calvin Locke
Probably a different cave. This guy was whining about damage that "only could have been done" by dynamite. And he "knows" that it must have been the looters...

I've heard that academia used their ties to Clinton to have the Federal Government destroy evidence. Was Kennewick Man's finding place destroyed, I heard it was? Also, a place in the Southwest was destroyed when it was found to be thousands of years old and had a type of ceramic engineering skill as yet unknown to us. Academia accuses Christians of denying science, but I believe lately they're denying much more science than the short-sighted Christians they like to ridicule. Academia certainly has their sacred cows. They are hypocrits.

40 posted on 09/04/2002 12:13:22 AM PDT by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
"Was Kennewick Man's finding place destroyed, I heard it was?"

Yup. By the Corp Of Engineers at the direction of 'officials' high in the Clinton Administration. A court has just awarded the scientists the bones of Kennewick Man for further study. (a win!)

41 posted on 09/04/2002 7:48:46 AM PDT by blam
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To: #3Fan
I've heard that academia ...Federal Government destroy evidence.

I seriously find that hard to believe. Unless said evidence would redirect grants away from said academics.
Anything for a grant, don't you know?

For the bureaucrats, more ways to p*ss away tax dollars, more private land to control.

Those fascists in the EPA during X41's term, I believe, declared a rut in the desert that fills once
every hundred years, "protected wetlands".

42 posted on 09/04/2002 7:13:52 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: blam
Oops. Just read "to me", and not all the responses.

Looked up KM and can't find anything about the site being destroyed, but saw a diagram of the site, essentially on a river bank.

Even the Polynesians tried to grab some cash, huh?

43 posted on 09/04/2002 7:37:57 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Calvin Locke
"Looked up KM and can't find anything about the site being destroyed, but saw a diagram of the site, essentially on a river bank."

Oh, it was destroyed. I read a blow by blow account of it in James C. Chatters (he did most of the Kennewick Man work and in fact lives in Kennewick) book titled, Ancient Encounters. He was called a MF and threatened a number of times by the indians.

44 posted on 09/04/2002 8:59:24 PM PDT by blam
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To: Calvin Locke
The Smithsonian Institute stepped into the fray and backed the scientists. I think this backing is what saved the day. (I was suprised because the Smithsonian has become so PC.)
45 posted on 09/04/2002 9:02:44 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Yup. By the Corp Of Engineers at the direction of 'officials' high in the Clinton Administration.

I despise these members of the academic community so much. Evidence doesn't support their theories so they destroy, and accuse others of believing in myths. They are the ones that believe in myths and will suppress knowledge to protect their sacred cows.

A court has just awarded the scientists the bones of Kennewick Man for further study. (a win!)

That's good, but Kennewick man is a high profile case. There are other acts of evidence destruction going on all the time that we don't hear about. The academic community is no better than the Romans who destroyed the library at Alexandria.

46 posted on 09/04/2002 10:35:45 PM PDT by #3Fan
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To: Calvin Locke
I seriously find that hard to believe. Unless said evidence would redirect grants away from said academics. Anything for a grant, don't you know?

No it's not that. They are motivated by the oldest motivation there is: pride and worship. These people came up with their theories decades ago and will do anything to suppress evidence that may show that they were wrong so they can continue to be worshipped and cited in books. There are acts of destruction going on all the time because most of the theories of the habitation of this continent that they came up with then were wrong. Kennewick Man's discovery site was quickly destroyed, because Kennewick Man proves that the academic community does not know what they're talking about. Plus it provides proof that the Asiatic Indians were not the first inhabitants of this continent.

For the bureaucrats, more ways to p*ss away tax dollars, more private land to control.

I think it's pride and with a little bit of protection of the minority's victim status thrown in.

Those fascists in the EPA during X41's term, I believe, declared a rut in the desert that fills once every hundred years, "protected wetlands".

There's more to it than environmentalism, it's the protection of the academic elite. Like I said, they are no better than the Romans who destryoed the library at Alexandria.

47 posted on 09/04/2002 10:45:17 PM PDT by #3Fan
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To: blam
Here's a weird link. A guy named Steve Quayle. You have to wait for the left frame to load. There's some "woo woo" stuff there (links to Art Bell, and such like) ... lots of weird stuff. But I guess this guy wrote a book about giants.

I haven't had much time to read through his stuff online (whatever there is) so I don't know if he has it well documented or if it is just based on legends.

Don't know where I get these things (some from FR to be sure) ... just bookmark as I go. Will have to categorize all of these things some day. But I do love this Ancient, and catastrophism (is there such a woid? LOL) stuff.

48 posted on 09/04/2002 11:05:02 PM PDT by Boomer Geezer
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To: blam
Found some time line. Recall Chatters' book as part of it. Got real nasty? Sounds more like an aboriginal shakedown.

Sorry, but I can't get excited over my bones being studied for archealogical purposes in 10K years.

Would be glad to help out slighter sooner, but Kennewick time is fine by me. (Shame on John Williams though.)

Now if they were using my bones for some satanic rite, or pulling an Ed Gein...that's a horse of a different color.

49 posted on 09/04/2002 11:08:27 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: #3Fan
"Like I said, they are no better than the Romans who destryoed the library at Alexandria."

I thought that was caused by an accidental fire during a battle or something?

50 posted on 09/05/2002 6:48:17 AM PDT by blam
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