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IRAQ AND THE NEOCONS' PSEUDO-REALITY
Chronicles Magazine ^ | 9/02/2002 | Srdja Trifkovic

Posted on 09/06/2002 9:06:38 AM PDT by JohnGalt

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1 posted on 09/06/2002 9:06:38 AM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: JohnGalt
You know why we have a harder time than we should have in defeating the RATS? It's because we'd rather fight each other.

Therefore, I have absolutely no use for the "ideology über alles" crowd. And I'm sure that the "ideology über alles" crowd has no need for me, either.

Therefore, let us go our separate ways in peace. There's no other solution.

2 posted on 09/06/2002 9:12:11 AM PDT by rdb3
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To: JohnGalt
(Nevertheless, he would not use them against a foe armed with nuclear weapons: brutal dictators are realists, and therefore devoid of suicidal tendencies.)

Earth to bonehead - Saddam has fired scuds at a nearby nation that has nuclear weapons. That nation is Israel.

Additionally, Saddam is not the entire problem within Iraq. The problem was the Baath Marxist Socialist Party which gave Saddam the ability to assume dictatorial power. That party game into power by killing its legitimate opposition within the previous goverment.

3 posted on 09/06/2002 9:55:29 AM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: JohnGalt
Excellent deconstruction of the warmongerers' position.

This line is a classic: "There is no strategic vision, no cost-benefit analysis, no consideration of risks, and no definition of victory. This is frivolity on par with the behavior of Europe's leading statesmen in July 1914."

4 posted on 09/06/2002 9:59:16 AM PDT by SteamshipTime
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To: justa-hairyape
Better BAATHIST than Islamists. Iraq is one of the few Arab nations where Christians, Athiests and Zoroasterians are tolerated and serve in the government.

Even if Iraq were Islamist, it is not the main threat to the US in the region.

5 posted on 09/06/2002 10:51:49 AM PDT by Clemenza
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To: JohnGalt
Bump for a later read.
6 posted on 09/06/2002 10:58:01 AM PDT by Valin
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To: Clemenza
Better BAATHIST than Islamists. Iraq is one of the few Arab nations where Christians, Athiests and Zoroasterians are tolerated and serve in the government.

How does this vaunted Iraqi/Saddam Hussein tolerance square with the assaults on Assyrian Christians and Jews in Iraq? Or the Kurds, for that matter. Either you're an agent of the Iraqi Secret Police, or you're a "useful idiot." In either case, you're no lover of the truth.

7 posted on 09/06/2002 12:12:54 PM PDT by pawdoggie
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To: JohnGalt
The paleo cons were the people who took the existence of the Soviet Union for granted and for all their rhetoric of opposing the expansion of Communism, seemed resigned to the fact nothing could be done to bring the Evil Empire down. Their present rhetoric on Iraq betrays their lack of appreciation for America's strengths and ability to make the world a safer place for American interests and democracy. Ronald Reagan elected to go with us sullied neo-cons and went on to win the Cold War. George W. Bush has our ear on Iraq and after our little adventure in Baghdad is over the Middle East will never be the same again. In a word its time to go and kick our enemies ass!!!
8 posted on 09/06/2002 12:16:18 PM PDT by goldstategop
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To: Clemenza
Even if Iraq were Islamist, it is not the main threat to the US in the region.

It is currently the main threat to US Armed Forces within the region. Those armed forces would be the pilots enforcing the UN mandated NO-Fly Zones. After enforcing these zones for over 10 years, its time to come to the conclusion that they have not worked and they put US armed forces at risk. The Baath party and its Marxist Dictator must go.

9 posted on 09/06/2002 12:22:47 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: JohnGalt
This article is a gigantic ball of gas which when it finally dissipates is nothing other than a wordy expression of internationalist anti-Americanism masquerading as American Fundamentalism. Either way, it's crap.
10 posted on 09/06/2002 12:31:18 PM PDT by Stentor
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To: goldstategop
Let me ask then, do you blush when you see neocons rolling out the Hitler, Chamberlin references every couple of years?
11 posted on 09/06/2002 12:31:56 PM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: justa-hairyape
Earth to bonehead - Saddam has fired scuds at a nearby nation that has nuclear weapons. That nation is Israel.

Seeing as how those scuds were armed with conventional warheads, and were not weapons of mass destruction, I fail to see your point.

12 posted on 09/06/2002 2:11:36 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: justa-hairyape
It is currently the main threat to US Armed Forces within the region. Those armed forces would be the pilots enforcing the UN mandated NO-Fly Zones.

The no-fly zones are not UN mandated, but unilaterally imposed by the United States. They are a violation of international law and do nothing to advance US interests.

13 posted on 09/06/2002 2:14:28 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: SteamshipTime
Your post is an excellent example of the over-the-top Chicken Little anti-warmongering.
14 posted on 09/06/2002 2:14:29 PM PDT by Moby Grape
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To: goldstategop
The paleo cons were the people who took the existence of the Soviet Union for granted and for all their rhetoric of opposing the expansion of Communism, seemed resigned to the fact nothing could be done to bring the Evil Empire down.

Nonsense. Pat Buchanan was one of the loudest voices calling for concrete action to bring down communism. He was also the one of the biggest oppenents of Detante within the Nixon Administration.

The ideologues pushing Detante were the country-club/Rockafellar Republicans, like Bush I, who are not to be confused with Paleocons.

15 posted on 09/06/2002 2:21:36 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: JohnGalt
Some are inspired by the ideology of "idealistic" globalism, constructed upon the notion of America's exceptionalism: the United States is a proposition nation, founded upon the values of equality, human rights, tolerance, etc, etc; it is therefore unique, it is the "indispensable nation," a light to the world, whether the world wants it or not. "Humanitarian bombing" was those people's trademark, the Balkans their favorite playing field, and they thrived under Bill Clinton. They saw America as the ultimate arbitrator of domestic evolutions all over the world; to them foreign policy equated social policy on a global scale, and "nation-building" abroad was the equivalent of busing and affirmative action at home.

Under President George W. Bush the "other people" in the foreign policy establishment are guided by globalism's twin brother—by the neoconservative ideology that seeks and justifies unabashed American hegemony. Both strains strikingly analogous to their doctrinaire Marxist roots, and both are deeply inimical to the traditions and values of the American Republic. Their relentless pursuit of an American Empire overseas is coupled by their deliberate domestic transformation of the United States' federal government into a Leviathan unbound by constitutional restraints.

This is an example of the kind of feverish writing that turns people off "paleoconservatism." The habit of calling everyone who disagrees with oneself "Marxist" is a sign that one doesn't have very strong arguments. As with leftists calling people fascist, the effect is to wear out the meaning of the word. When people indulge in this "everybody is a Marxist but us" it's a sign that they've stopped thinking and making distinctions in favor of just emoting.

It may be that the traditions of the Republic have been lost or are being lost. But I don't trust Chronicles to really tell me what those traditions are. Washington crushed the Whiskey rebellion. Adams fought a "Quasi-War" with France and brought the war home with the Alien and Sedition Acts. Jefferson struck at the Barbary Pirates without a declaration of war, and strangled our own shipping with the Embargo. Madison went to war with Britain, in part because the "War Hawks" wanted Canada. Monroe cast two continents under our imperial "protection." I'm not saying that we should be ashamed of our history. And I'm not saying that nothing has changed over two centuries, or that we should fight this war. I'm just saying that "Chronicles" has a simplistic and distorted view of history and of the realities of international relations. It's emotionally satisfying, but disproven by historical experience.

16 posted on 09/06/2002 3:19:06 PM PDT by x
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To: JohnGalt
Thank you for posting this article. Srdja Trifkovic is like a long drink of cool, clear water after a desperate ride across a wasteland.

The fact that this brilliant, well-reasoned, well-written, non-hysterical article is featured in a marginal American publication--- Chronicles Magazine-is damning evidence of the brutal monoculturalism of America's Ruling Elite; of the totalitarian mindset of the Last Remaining Superpower on Earth--the myth of the "far right" and the "far left" notwithstanding.

We have become what we beheld in the Cold War.

But thanks again for the refreshing drink....

17 posted on 09/06/2002 3:49:10 PM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: x
"...This is an example of the kind of feverish writing that turns people off "paleoconservatism." The habit of calling everyone who disagrees with oneself "Marxist" is a sign that one doesn't have very strong arguments. As with leftists calling people fascist, the effect is to wear out the meaning of the word. When people indulge in this "everybody is a Marxist but us" it's a sign that they've stopped thinking and making distinctions in favor of just emoting....

This is a less-than-cheap critique. I wonder why you chose to distill a long, melancholy, well-written article into a tiny feverish red cape to wave before the inevitable charging bulls on this forum?

Are you contending that the root of the neo-conservatism is NOT marxism?

And then--even cheaper than the cheapest bargain-basement shot--you ream the source of the article. Aren't you the least bit concerned that a fine, entirely admissable argument like this finds no other outlet in they-hate-us-because-we-are-so-free America than The Chronicles?

18 posted on 09/06/2002 3:59:32 PM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: LaBelleDameSansMerci
The Leftists hate us because we accept reality for what it is and while we accept government has a role to play in taking care of society's needy, we don't accept that it has to be a cradle to grave one. As we've found a government's that too big is inefficient and a government that's overly intrusive is lacking in compassion. That's why we want the welfare state limited and have private charities and individuals do what government should refrain from doing so people that really need help are truly helped. The difference between liberals and neo-cons is liberals have faith in government whereas we have faith in people.
19 posted on 09/06/2002 4:08:05 PM PDT by goldstategop
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To: pawdoggie
Assyrian Christians have never been targeted by the government to my knowledge, if you have evidence, please post (I do know about the hanging of Jews as "Zionist Agents," Iraqi tolerance not extending to Jews). Again, do you want a stable secular regime, an islamist republic, or a puppet regime that would fall like a house of cards once the US Military pulled out.

Personally, if you want to see the main sponsor of terrorism, simply take a look at our "friends" in their Kingdom in the middle of the Arabian peninsula. Of course we can never touch them, unless we want oil to go to $100 a gallon at the tank.

20 posted on 09/06/2002 7:28:14 PM PDT by Clemenza
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