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Mel Gibson Attacks Vatican
NewsMax.com ^ | 9/13/02 | Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff

Posted on 09/13/2002 5:08:13 AM PDT by kattracks

Actor Mel Gibson, a staunchly orthodox Roman Catholic who will play Christ in an upcoming movie, says the Vatican is a "wolf in sheep's clothing" and that he doesn't believe in the present-day Church as an institution.

Gibson, who calls himself an "old-fashioned Catholic" devoted to the Latin mass and pre-Vatican II Catholicism told the Italian newspaper Il Giornale that he believes in God and is happy that his only daughter has decided to become a nun.

In Rome to film "Passion," a new film about the final hours of Christ's life, Gibson, 46 recalled that he had a stern Catholic upbringing as a youngster in Australia, where he attended Catholic school.

"My love for religion was transmitted to me by my father," he told the newspaper. "But I do not believe in the Church as an institution." Gibson said he has a private chapel at his home in Malibu, Calif., at which mass is celebrated every Sunday in Latin.

The replacement of the Latin liturgy by vernacular languages has caused many Catholics such as Gibson to seek out parishes where the Latin mass is celebrated on Sundays. The Vatican allows Latin masses but requires permission to be granted by local bishops.

Vatican II rules permit local bishops to apply for so-called "indults" - exceptions that allow mass to be celebrated in Latin. In recent years there has been a growing movement to restore Latin as the language of the mass. Adherents point to the fact that the pope continues to say his private daily mass in Latin

Gibson's objections to the post-Vatican II Church echo those of the members of the Society of St. Pius X, which broke away from Rome partially because of the abandonment of the Latin or Tridentine liturgy. It has chapels scattered around the U.S., where the liturgy is the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass celebrated in Latin.

In the U.S. the Society claims it has 43 priests, 60 seminarians, 15 priories, 98 chapels and 26 schools.

According to Britain's Times. Gibson and his wife, Robyn, have been married for more than 20 years. He is fiercely protective of his seven children (six sons and one daughter, who he says wants to be a nun, which he is very happy about). He says he was attracted to the story of Christ's last hours before the crucifixion because it is "the drama of a man torn between his divine spirit and his earthly weakness."

In the Garden of Gethsemane, on the road to Calvary and at Golgotha, Gibson said, Jesus is often described as being calmly resigned to his suffering and death despite St. Luke's account of Christ's agony in the Garden of Olives, where he underwent an attack of hematidrosa - where victims sweat blood as a result of profound emotion or great fear.

Gibson says, "my Jesus will be shaken by his human suffering. Real blood will flow from the wound in his side, and the screams of his crucifixion will be real as well."

Catholic sources told the Times that Gibson sought the advice of theologians and prelates in Rome for his film and that the actor has strong views on divorce, abortion and contraception.



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1 posted on 09/13/2002 5:08:13 AM PDT by kattracks
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To: kattracks
From the looks of it will be very much an old-fashioned biblical epic. They don't make em anymore and if there's anyone who can pull one off today, its Mel Gibson. He's such a good actor that he steals scenes even in movies where he's not billed as the lead. I suspect liberals and the ACLU won't like his interpretation of Jesus, that's for sure.
2 posted on 09/13/2002 5:12:40 AM PDT by goldstategop
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: goldstategop
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth..." Exodus 20:4

I HATE the idea that this movie is going to come out in the pop culture, and people are going to go to it and think they are seeing what Jesus is like, that they would take the most wonderful, awful and important event in human history and try to package it as entertainment.
4 posted on 09/13/2002 5:23:08 AM PDT by Federalist#34
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To: kattracks
Gibson's objections to the post-Vatican II Church echo those of the members of the Society of St. Pius X, which broke away from Rome partially because of the abandonment of the Latin or Tridentine liturgy.

To some Catholics on the site more devout and informed than I: does this mean Gibson is involved with a breakaway sect that is no longer in communion with Rome?

I hope not. There is no other man in Hollywood for whom I have greater respect and it would be heartbreaking to know he has formally abandoned Christ's true church.

5 posted on 09/13/2002 5:25:50 AM PDT by winin2000
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To: Federalist#34
"...that they would take the most wonderful, awful and important event in human history and try to package it as entertainment"

I agree w/ you, I have a hard time believing any actor could do justice to the drama and the passion of our Lord's agony and sacrifice.

But who knows? After the many attempts to trivialize Christ in the recent past He remains unassailable. At worst this will be just another ham handed attempt at profundity, OTOH it could be moving.

6 posted on 09/13/2002 5:34:07 AM PDT by Pietro
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To: winin2000
I don't think Mel abandoned Catholicism. He takes issue with the abandonment of many traditional rites by the Church simply to appear "progressive" when that happened back in the 60s. You can take issue with the watering down of Catholicism to be PC and still be a good Catholic. In fact Mel's the opposite of liberal Catholics who want the Church to become even more PC by accepting homosexuals as normal, sanctioning abortion, and ordaining women clergy. Mel's guilty of loving his faith and wanting the Church to be like it used to be and you don't see too many people do that these days and if you're for tradition you're considered a fodgey. That and not defining deviancy down is considered to be the worst crime in our post modern society.
7 posted on 09/13/2002 5:34:31 AM PDT by goldstategop
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To: kattracks
London Times thread.
8 posted on 09/13/2002 5:35:10 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: winin2000
My presumption is that the priest who officiates in his private chapel is not officially affiliated with any diocese. I don't think he is a member of the SSPX or the SSPV or any of the truly wacko offshoots of either of those movements.

He may have taken the Vatican ruling to heart that if there is no Mass in your diocese celebrated according to the GIRM, then you are permitted to attend a Mass celebrated according to the rubrics of the 1962 Missal.

He may be expressing a frustration with our poorly-administered Church and the lack of disciplinary mettle of the Vatican. It does not necessarily mean he has separated himself from allegiance to the Holy See.

9 posted on 09/13/2002 5:42:58 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: winin2000
To some Catholics on the site more devout and informed than I: does this mean Gibson is involved with a breakaway sect that is no longer in communion with Rome?

If Mel Gibson is not SSPX, I know for a fact that he has very close relatives who are in the SSPX.

In one recent movie "Conspiracy Theory", his cabdriver character is even shown scolding two nuns for being allied with the Vatican, described by the character as "corrupt".

Christ's true church consists of every believer in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection. Not every Catholic is a Christian, just as every denomination has people within their doors who are not believers.

10 posted on 09/13/2002 5:44:10 AM PDT by fishtank
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To: winin2000
"...does this mean Gibson is involved with a breakaway sect that is no longer in communion with Rome?"

Not at all. It is only human to have doubts and question these days and those raised under the preconsiliar Church would have to be mindless not to see the problems along with the "fruits" of Vatican II.

There is an agenda to trigger another schism from many sectors including the population control bunch and this sort of media spin, taking Gibson's conservative faith and using it as a tool against the Church, is highly orchestrated.
11 posted on 09/13/2002 5:44:35 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: winin2000
Actually, there are probably hundreds of us right here on
Free Republic who belong to a breakaway sect who abandoned
what you call the "true Church". We're Lutherans...
12 posted on 09/13/2002 5:53:59 AM PDT by Russ
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To: Russ
Incoming....Look out.
13 posted on 09/13/2002 6:03:29 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Pietro
But who knows? After the many attempts to trivialize Christ in the recent past He remains unassailable. At worst this will be just another ham handed attempt at profundity, OTOH it could be moving.

It's not unusual for conversions to start with an entertainment that provokes curiosity. I'm old enough to remember "Jesus Christ, Superstar" doing just that.

14 posted on 09/13/2002 6:06:47 AM PDT by TomSmedley
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To: kattracks
The priest who married my wife and I 42 years ago was fired by the Newark (NJ) archdiocese because he adhered to the vows he took at ordination. He very clearly stated that many of the "progressive" reforms were in conflict with those ordination vows.

He has continued to say the traditional Latin Mass and every Sunday there are cars there from NJ, NY, CT, PA, MA.

This priest was recognized by the POPE in a special papal citation for his dedicated service and devotion to his priestly vocation three years ago.

In our local parish, there are constant statements about being a good CHRISTIAN, but a conspicuous absence of the word CATHOLIC. All CATHOLICS are CHRISTIAN, but not all CHRISTIANS are CATHOLIC!

It sounds as though Mel Gibson believes in a similar way.
15 posted on 09/13/2002 6:08:26 AM PDT by leprechaun9
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To: kattracks
The Latin Mass: A Journal of Catholic Culture
16 posted on 09/13/2002 6:23:41 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum
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To: Federalist#34; Pietro
.that they would take the most wonderful, awful and important event in human history and try to package it as entertainment.

Seeing that Mel is going out of the way to present an accurate picture (consulting theologians, priests, etc.), I don't think that his motive is pure entertainment. Spreading the Gospel is more likely. Also, don't forget, for over a thousand years, people have been reenacting the Passion in the form of Passion Plays, etc., as a means of celebrating the Easter story and educating the masses. Our modern movie industry can trace its roots to theatre, which had its beginning in some of the earliest forms of drama in Europe in the Middle Ages. The subject of these earliest plays? Stories from the Bible, of course, to help teach the illiterate peasants Christianity. So what Mel is doing is nothing new.

17 posted on 09/13/2002 6:35:38 AM PDT by egarvue
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To: Federalist#34
I HATE the idea that this movie is going to come out in the pop culture, and people are going to go to it and think they are seeing what Jesus is like, that they would take the most wonderful, awful and important event in human history and try to package it as entertainment.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But for those young men and women who see the movie, and are attuned to God's grace, they may be moved and deepened in their faith. In short, those who don't understand what they're seeing won't benefit. Others may come closer to God as a result.

18 posted on 09/13/2002 6:41:37 AM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: winin2000
To some Catholics on the site more devout and informed than I: does this mean Gibson is involved with a breakaway sect that is no longer in communion with Rome?

I am no longer Catholic, but there is a chapel near our house where only Latin masses are given. People travel from many miles away every Sunday to attend mass there. These people remember (as many Catholics age 50+ remember) that masses were given in Latin when they were children, and they think the Church has abandoned many of the old rites and traditions. (And they're correct). But, the priests who run the place are considered "renegades" today. I had an article about it, but I recently trashed it, so I don't remember all the details. But, I don't think they're officially recognized by the Catholic Church anymore. How ironic, when it was the Catholic Church that changed, not these traditionalists.

19 posted on 09/13/2002 6:46:41 AM PDT by Tired of Taxes
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To: kattracks
I like this guy.
As a Catholic with many years of Jesuit education...
20 posted on 09/13/2002 6:48:44 AM PDT by Publius6961
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To: kattracks; Buggman; Caleb1411; Dataman
...where he underwent an attack of hematidrosa - where victims sweat blood as a result of profound emotion or great fear.

Common mistake. That IS NOT what Dr. Luke says. Anyone care to expose the error, for the Big Money? (c8

Dan
Biblical Christianity web site

21 posted on 09/13/2002 6:59:25 AM PDT by BibChr
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To: kattracks
When I was in seminary training many years ago, I came across an account of the Passion of Christ written by a physician. It described in detail the weapons and torture devices used by the Roman military. It described in very vivid detail, the trauma caused by each tool. I was totally drained emotionally by the time I finished reading about it. The Gospel telling of the Passion is understatement personified. After reading the medical account my love and admiration for Christ increased expotentially.
If Mel follows the gospel and truely shows what Christ suffered, it could bring about a Christian revival.
22 posted on 09/13/2002 7:01:21 AM PDT by TEXASPROUD
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To: kattracks
Does anyone have the transcript of the full interview?
23 posted on 09/13/2002 7:07:17 AM PDT by The Iguana
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To: Askel5; patent; sinkspur; ELS
fyi
24 posted on 09/13/2002 7:07:37 AM PDT by Fred Mertz
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To: kattracks
Gibson's objections to the post-Vatican II Church echo those of the members of the Society of St. Pius X, which broke away from Rome partially because of the abandonment of the Latin or Tridentine liturgy. It has chapels scattered around the U.S., where the liturgy is the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass celebrated in Latin.
I’m not sure he is SSPX, he may be more of a Sedevacantist. I think that is a rather confused issue.
25 posted on 09/13/2002 7:25:07 AM PDT by patent
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To: leprechaun9
Can you tell me more about this remarkable priest? Perhaps in freepmail?
26 posted on 09/13/2002 7:27:16 AM PDT by narses
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To: kattracks
Sounds to me like Mel didn't leave the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church left him.
27 posted on 09/13/2002 7:29:13 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: TEXASPROUD
See http://www.cga94.com/contributors/stuff/crucifixion/

It was in JAMA, of all places.
28 posted on 09/13/2002 7:33:12 AM PDT by narses
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To: BibChr
Is your statement here based on the omission of the relevant verses from Papyrus 75, Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, and other majiscules and miniscules?
29 posted on 09/13/2002 7:34:58 AM PDT by Remole
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To: patent
Thanks for the redirect.

As posted to Narses on the other thread:

In the recent movie "Signs", Gibson plays a married man with two children who had a crisis of faith six months prior which caused him to leave his ministry.

Throughout the film, folks have a hard time remembering not to call him "Father", a drugstore clerk insists on "clearing her conscience" by detailing her sins to him and -- at the close of the film when his faith is restored, he again dons his Roman collar and returns the crucifix to his wall.

Particularly given the absolute dearth of adverts, I can only conclude that the focus of the film with regard to "Product Placement" was married priests.

I am extremely uneasy about anyone's looking to Mel Gibson for some witness to the faith. I say this as a longtime (since "Year of Living Dangerously") fan who has no reason to believe he's not a good man.

He may also be a faithful Catholic but this article -- coming on the heels of his big-screen pitch for married priests moreso than in advance of his playing Christ -- does not bode well. I suspect Hollywood (agit prop dogs of the White House) knows they have a goldmine as far as the Catholic Gibson is concerned.

Does not bode well.


30 posted on 09/13/2002 7:37:44 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
The other thread
31 posted on 09/13/2002 7:38:17 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Federalist#34
So, people will be able to watch Gibson portraying Jesus and then, with the click of a button, watch his chunky little butt bobbing up and down in Lethal Weapon?

Is this progress?

32 posted on 09/13/2002 7:44:34 AM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: kattracks
Back in the 50's and 60's, my parents voted straight-ticket democrat. But the Dems back then were guys like Kennedy and Truman. Since Reagan, though, they are staunchly Republican. They contend that they didn't leave the Democratic Party... The Democratic Party changed dramatically and they wanted no part of it. Speaking as a Catholic of 38 years, it is my opinion that the Catholic Church is also going to lose a lot of its adherents in the same way... Devout Catholics are going to seek out a more conservative sect.
34 posted on 09/13/2002 7:47:37 AM PDT by TheEngineer
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To: kattracks
It's true though.

Stripping our Mass of the ancient, traditional langauge of worship was a conscious act of cultural genocide. It cut us off from the roots of our culture and burned our bridges to the pre-Catholic ancients; Something not even the darkest of the so-called Dark Ages could do entirely!!

The deformation of the AmChu in the wake of this linguistic Terror followed like the night follows the day. We were always more vulnerable because of certain aspects of American culture. The homosexuality of the clergy is not the worst problem in the AmChu; the rampant mediocrity, anti-intellectualism, sappy feminization and inabilty to appreciate beauty--all of this flows directly from the guillotining of the Latin Mass.

35 posted on 09/13/2002 7:53:14 AM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: Domestic Church
"...There is an agenda to trigger another schism from many sectors including the population control bunch and this sort of media spin, taking Gibson's conservative faith and using it as a tool against the Church, is highly orchestrated....

Hmmmm. You are probably correct. But it's hard, sometimes, not to react when one is a reactionary...

36 posted on 09/13/2002 7:55:10 AM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: narses; TEXASPROUD
I've seen the article that JAMA published. I think TEXASPROUD is referring to a book entitled, "A Doctor at Calvary". It's a very tough read.
37 posted on 09/13/2002 7:56:11 AM PDT by Steve1789
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: goldstategop
As a kid, I poked around in various churches, looking for something I could call my own. I tried the Baptists, the Nazarenes, Assembly of God and Methodism before I finally tried the Roman Catholic Church. Like Mel Gibson and a lot of others, the ritual and mystique of the Mass seemed to me to be the proper way to worship God.
Then came Vatican II and I was lost again.
Little by little though, I have found my way back to God by watching for those parishes that celebrate Mass in Latin.
I suppose it could be argued that my faith is superficial, that it is too dependent on pomp and ceremony. That may very well be true, though I'm probably not qualified to judge... but it's MY faith and it feels right to me. Evidently it feels right to Mr. Gibson and a growing number of others too.
39 posted on 09/13/2002 7:57:06 AM PDT by oldfart
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To: HDMZ
Thanks for the clarification. (slapping forehead). I should have known when I saw the word "London".....
40 posted on 09/13/2002 7:58:00 AM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: kattracks
Mel Gibson Attacks Vatican

When I saw the headline, I knew this story wasn't true. Even Mel Gibson is no match for those Swiss mercenaries in the funny outfits.

41 posted on 09/13/2002 7:58:07 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Remole
Ooh! I love that! But no, even accepting the majority text reading, there's a commonly-missed element. Points for the erudite guess, though!

Dan

42 posted on 09/13/2002 8:04:01 AM PDT by BibChr
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Askel5
In "Signs" I wonder about that myself

However later on they showed that he was not Roman Catholic priest but I believe Anglican

44 posted on 09/13/2002 8:10:01 AM PDT by tophat9000
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To: kattracks
Most attacks on the Vatican come from the left of its position. The title is a little misleading, because Gibson is attacking the Vatican from the RIGHT of its positions: they're not conservative enough. Refreshing.
45 posted on 09/13/2002 8:10:09 AM PDT by Petronski
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To: Petronski
I must agree with Mel Gibson in this. All I can say to him is, "Dominus Vobiscum".
46 posted on 09/13/2002 8:12:52 AM PDT by scouse
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To: wideawake
He may have taken the Vatican ruling to heart that if there is no Mass in your diocese celebrated according to the GIRM,...

This is the first I've heard of this. Can you elaborate?

And who is to certify the the available masses in a given diocese are not GIRM-compliant? Can't imagine any local ordinary signing off on that.

47 posted on 09/13/2002 8:15:42 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: winin2000
does this mean Gibson is involved with a breakaway sect that is no longer in communion with Rome?

I don't know about Mel, but his father, Hutton, is a sede-vacantist who has written such books as, "Is the Pope Catholic".

48 posted on 09/13/2002 8:19:25 AM PDT by monkey
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To: HDMZ
About the only thing that may be accurate in the story is that Mel is Catholic,
Yes, they may have that right, but if he is a Sedevacantist, they are wrong on that as well.

patent  +AMDG

49 posted on 09/13/2002 8:19:50 AM PDT by patent
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To: Petronski
The title is a little misleading, because Gibson is attacking the Vatican from the RIGHT of its positions: they're not conservative enough.

To me, attacking the legitmacy of the institutional Church seems the very definition of Leftism.

Whether Mr. Gibson knows it or not, the Credo that he recites in Latin every week includes a profession of faith in an apostolic Church -- IOW, one that has a visible, hierarchical structure. To be an "apostle" is to be sent, not self-appointed.

50 posted on 09/13/2002 8:24:52 AM PDT by Romulus
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