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DEPRIVING THE ARABS OF THEIR PREY (GREAT READ)
WINSTON MID EAST ANALYSIS & COMMENTARY | September 13, 2002 | Emanuel A. Winston

Posted on 09/18/2002 5:33:54 AM PDT by BenF

The Arab nations continue to whine and complain that America has unfairly deprived them of their victory over Israel since 1948. Somehow, in their fertile imagination where Arabs wander about in their fantasy land, they believe they are not to blame for losing six wars of intended annihilation to their hated enemy, the Jews. They claim that "It wasn't the Jews who met each attack with courage and fighting skills that beat them on the field of battle." Clearly, 'they' didn't lose to the despised Jews who, for centuries the Arab Muslims had designated as lowly habitants of most Arab lands. If it wasn't the Jews, who in the Arabs' fables and imagination were weak and cowardly, it must have been America, who they call "The Great Satan" that defeated them.

So, the Arabs, as is their custom, invented new realities and history. They, the Arabs, were not fighting a small number of Jews, who sent them running from the field of battle. It was those dastardly Americans. Being beaten by a Superpower is acceptable to their testicle-driven pride and, therefore, there is no shame in being beaten by a Superpower.

Note! At this point a bit of reality and history is called for. Not only did the Americans not assist Israel in 1948 but America, along with Europe, embargoed arms shipments to Israel. She had to scrounge the junkyards of Europe to accumulate obsolete arms that dated back often to WWI and the cast-offs of WWII. It was long after that Israel was allowed to "buy" arms, using monies contributed by Jews in America. The Jews of Europe, having been killed off by Hitler's Nazis who were assisted by most European nations, could not contribute. Any property the survivors might have previously owned, had been confiscated by the occupying Nazis and their European collaborators. Their assets had been grabbed by Hitler, the French, the Swiss, the Ukrainians - etc. Well, it's all there in the well-researched books about WWII.

So, the walking skeletons who came out of the graveyards of Europe and made it past the British blockade to Palestine supplemented the earlier Jewish pioneers, bringing the Jewish population in 1948 to some 600,000. This became the rag-tag army who were issued a vintage rifle, allowed to fire 3 bullets for training and sent to fight the converging armies from 7 Arab countries - Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen. These armies were all well-trained and well-armed by the British or French. The always perfidious Brits left their Taggart Forts and ammunition to the Arabs upon their departure for England. The Arabs met this ghostly army of Jewish survivors and were driven back in shock by the Jews. The Arabs never forgot this humiliating loss. They call it 'Nakba', the catastrophe - which it was for them, both physically and psychologically. This was a loss to their testicle-driven manhood and a loss to their vaunted pride in the fertile imagination of their invincibility.

Later, the Jews from Arab countries were evicted from homes and businesses with their lineage going back thousands of years. They lived in tent camps but, unlike Arab refugees, the Jews of Israel accepted their own people and they were eventually absorbed by a new country which had no money, no external resources and few natural resources except their own brains, grit and faith. The Arab refugees were kept in deliberate squalor and never allowed citizenship in the Arab countries - although they claimed a spurious brotherhood.

As history unfolds, there were more attacks and frequent Terrorism in between the six actual wars. The Arabs were beaten again and again, even more soundly. The Jewish people, who had not been warriors since ancient times, re-learned the arts of war. They often built their own arms when they were denied arms from the Western nations who were more concerned with sucking up to Arab oil then the survival of the tiny Jewish State.

In each war that Israel won, the Americans, Europeans and the Soviets would step in to insure that there was no final surrender by the Arabs. After all, how could the lowly Jews force the Arab world to its knees in a military victory?! Israel was time and again forbidden the fruits of victory to secure her sovereignty. Israel could not be allowed to be victorious as America was when she and her Allies defeated Germany and Japan, imposing a just and secure peace. Israel was never to be permitted such a victory or a full peace with a defeated enemy. Even now, the world screams when Israel dares to defeat Arafat's Terrorists and impose a peace which only power can maintain.

History continued to stumble on, with the Arabs hating the Jews, the Americans and the ever-present sniveling Europeans. What the Arabs could not win on the battlefield, they tried to win through Terror. Out of the Arab nations came their proxies: Iran sponsors Hezb'Allah in Lebanon under Syrian control. Syria hosts at least 10-12 Terror organizations. Egypt founded the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) in 1964 - well before Israel had liberated Judea, Samaria, Gaza, the Golan Heights and that part of Jerusalem which Jordan had occupied for 19 years. Other Terror organizations, like Al Qaeda out of Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Afghanistan - with some from Iraq -were fostered and trained in various Arab countries. The Soviet Union also ran immense Terrorist training camps, a fact exposed to the incredulous world during the First Yonatan Conference Against Terrorism in 1979.

Our U.S. State Department covered up these facts that their Arab 'allies', Eg., Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, etc., were incubators for Terrorists. Rogue nations such as Iran, Syria, Iraq were more open in their display of hatred for Christian America and all non-Muslims. The Arabs called Israel "The Little Satan" and America "The Great Satan". They had a few pertinent, folksy sayings, like "First the Saturday people; then the Sunday people" and "Kiss the hand of your enemy until you can cut it off." These indicate the deep, enduring roots of the enmity that led to the 9/11.

Within days after 9/11, the FBI/CIA knew the perpetrators as 15 Saudi Arabians and 4 Egyptians, organized by Osama Bin Laden, a Saudi out of Sudan but then based in Afghanistan. So, America destroyed Afghanistan and the obvious Taliban Terror structure - leaving the warlords in control of their various areas and whatever Terrorists who could escape to the mountains or other countries - there to hide until opportunity calls them again for murder. They also thrive in the Free West, especially America, where they have set up "sleeper cells" awaiting their master Terrorists' calls for mega-attacks against their host countries.

Today, the radical Islamic Fundamentalists continue to turn history on its head, claiming that they only took up arms because it was the West, especially Israel and America, who attacked them, that is, who attacked Islam first. Arabs, when they revise history do not believe they are lying. The alteration of facts to suit their fantasies is simply a natural expression and custom of the way they see the world. A lie or a re-telling of the story is 'not a lie' but merely a 'new truth'. This is why the West cannot ever depend upon any agreement made with an Arab country. Everything is written on the sand which is quickly erased by the blowing wind and the laws of strict Islam.

When you hear an Arab Muslim say he is 'merely defending himself (or his country), be assured that he has already attacked his victim - particularly if he has lost the battle.

When you hear the Arab/Muslim nations bleat about why they are backward and poor, they blame America for their shortcomings. Be assured no one but their own leaders have whipped them down into the dirt.

The Lie is the Arab Muslims' best tool to explain defeat or excuse his planned attack against his enemies. As Carl Jung observed, the aggressor first blames his victim for planning to attack so that he can attack - with the claim that he is the supposedly injured party. The Leftist Liberal Media consume the 'Lie' as if it was candy - even expanding upon it.

So, losing wars to the Jews is merely the fault of the Americans who deprived them of their prey. To call the Arab Muslims "Terrorists" is not a racist statement. All the Terrorists in the last 10 years at least have been Arab Muslims. The Arab Muslim Terrorists are clever, deadly and have been trained and armed by the West. (We needed the money and the oil.)

Therefore, American had best be prepared to defend against malicious and nefarious Terror attacks of yet unknown magnitude. Winston Churchill once intoned: "The Hun is either at your throat or at your feet." So too, a radical Muslims, dedicated to a world dominated by Islam, will not stop until they are utterly defeated.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: arabs; clashofcivilizatio; prey
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 09/18/2002 5:33:54 AM PDT by BenF
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To: veronica; dennisw; Lent; Nachum; jonatron; Israel; NorthernRight; TrueBeliever9; neutrino; d4now; ..
fyi
2 posted on 09/18/2002 5:34:34 AM PDT by BenF
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To: BenF; Sister Rose
When are we going to send representatives to the State Department for US interests?
3 posted on 09/18/2002 5:45:55 AM PDT by Credo
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To: BenF
Great article! Bump!
4 posted on 09/18/2002 5:47:12 AM PDT by neutrino
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To: BenF
We forget that the Muslims have painted themselves into a corner. They have told themselves that their God will provide victory. If they don't achieve victory then their God is false.
5 posted on 09/18/2002 5:50:38 AM PDT by js1138
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To: BenF
America, who they call "The Great Satan" that defeated them.

I'm beginning to think they like to repeat that phrase ("America is the Great Satan") because they love getting to sneak the phrase "Great Satan" into their conversations.

Do they think Satan is Great, or something?

6 posted on 09/18/2002 5:51:38 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: Credo
send representatives to the State Department for US interests
Sometimes it does seem that we need a "US" desk at foggy bottom.

7 posted on 09/18/2002 5:55:43 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: BenF
I believe this to be true. Anyone who feels the need to contradict is welcome to try. However I warn you that you are apt to make yourself look the fool.


8 posted on 09/18/2002 5:55:43 AM PDT by sinclair
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To: BenF
Palestine was a wasteland until the Israelis built settlements/infrastructure, and would be today if left to the devices of the Palestinians (i.e.Philistines / i.e.Canaanites).
9 posted on 09/18/2002 5:57:13 AM PDT by Dallas
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To: js1138
Dear Icklums,

Great news! Your God is false, now you can relax, you don't have to be dickheads anymore.

-your local universal communication offical-

10 posted on 09/18/2002 6:10:42 AM PDT by norraad
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To: BenF; Torie
Winston Churchill once intoned: "The Hun is either at your throat or at your feet." So too are radical Muslims, dedicated to a world dominated by Islam, (who) will not stop until they are utterly defeated .

Makes sense to me.

11 posted on 09/18/2002 6:36:04 AM PDT by Nonstatist
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To: BenF
Israel was time and again forbidden the fruits of victory to secure her sovereignty.

Preservation of the state is victory. I don't know what the author thinks an Israeli "victory" would look like. An occupation of Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran etc.? Imposition at gunpoint of a demand for reparations from those governments that would never be paid? Enlargement of Israel's borders so that a larger fraction of Israel's population is Palestinian? I think the difficulty of achieving final "victory" is what has been working against Israel, not US pressure.

12 posted on 09/18/2002 6:54:58 AM PDT by KellyAdmirer
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To: BenF
The Arab nations continue to whine

The Arab Islamics are good at this.

13 posted on 09/18/2002 6:58:51 AM PDT by Lent
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To: BenF
"Therefore, America had best be prepared to defend against malicious and nefarious Terror attacks of yet unknown magnitude."

Likewise, the Islamic world had better become prepared for the reaction of the American citizens to any such attack: Instant and summary execution of all Muslims within the country. Even the police and military would help.

14 posted on 09/18/2002 7:13:08 AM PDT by 11B3
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To: KellyAdmirer
I don't know what the author thinks an Israeli "victory" would look like.

An "Israeli victory" would like present day Israel sans most of the West Bank settlements, surrounded by Arab States that look like a modernized Jordan; at least moderately responsive to the material desires of its citizens. Not that much to ask except when you put it in context.

15 posted on 09/18/2002 8:09:07 AM PDT by Nonstatist
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To: KellyAdmirer
Preservation of the state is victory.

So if Israel continues to exist while its' citizens continue to be murdered, Israel should consider itself "victorious" because it is still "preserved" for the time being? Victory is more than preservation of the state, imho.

I don't know what the author thinks an Israeli "victory" would look like. An occupation of Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran etc.? Imposition at gunpoint of a demand for reparations from those governments that would never be paid? Enlargement of Israel's borders so that a larger fraction of Israel's population is Palestinian?

I don't see where any of that has been suggested. Why would you make this assumption?

I think the difficulty of achieving final "victory" is what has been working against Israel, not US pressure.

Then you must have an idea of what Israel's "final victory" is that you're not telling us. How about sharing and including what facts you base your idea on?

16 posted on 09/18/2002 8:24:19 AM PDT by BenF
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To: BenF
I note that you don't offer any definition of final victory, either.
17 posted on 09/18/2002 8:29:32 AM PDT by KellyAdmirer
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To: Nonstatist
An "Israeli victory" would like present day Israel sans most of the West Bank settlements, surrounded by Arab States that look like a modernized Jordan; at least moderately responsive to the material desires of its citizens. Not that much to ask except when you put it in context.

Well, that possibility was offered to Yasir Arafat and he turned it down flat.

Realistically, your version of an "Israeli victory" will never take place for the simple reason that the Arab leaders have no incentive to modernize or install democratic reforms. If they did, there would be no need to remove the Jewish "settlements".

IMHO, you are ignoring the root cause of the conflict - Arab hatred towards the Jews. Is it deliberate?

18 posted on 09/18/2002 8:30:38 AM PDT by BenF
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To: KellyAdmirer
I note that you don't offer any definition of final victory, either.

First, you never asked me for one.

Second, it's really rather bad form to ask for something while failing to respond to the original questions.

19 posted on 09/18/2002 8:32:09 AM PDT by BenF
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To: 11B3
Likewise, the Islamic world had better become prepared for the reaction of the American citizens to any such attack: Instant and summary execution of all Muslims within the country. Even the police and military would help.

The Muslims are counting on the enemies of America who live within its borders - the liberals who are undermining our freedoms on a daily basis while criticizing our actions against our enemies.

20 posted on 09/18/2002 8:34:15 AM PDT by BenF
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To: Lent
The Arab Islamics are good at this.

So are their supporters in FR.

21 posted on 09/18/2002 8:35:14 AM PDT by BenF
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To: BenF
I never said I had any idea of what a final Israeli victory would look like. In fact, I think the whole notion of a "final" military victory is ridiculous. That appears to be what the author of the piece suggests the US has deprived Israel of achieving. I think that implication is obnoxious.
22 posted on 09/18/2002 8:36:04 AM PDT by KellyAdmirer
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To: BenF; Cyrano; Tennessee_Bob; Crowcreek; Gun142; Son of Rooster; dorben; smoking camels; ...
GREAT article!
23 posted on 09/18/2002 8:39:27 AM PDT by Terriergal
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To: knighthawk
BTTT
24 posted on 09/18/2002 8:39:51 AM PDT by spodefly
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To: syriacus
It would be logical for them to adopt the chant "Satan akbar!" when referring to the "Great Satan" (their words).......
25 posted on 09/18/2002 8:42:17 AM PDT by tracer
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To: BenF
Good read. Thanks for the ping. They call it 'Nakba', the catastrophe - may all their violent endeavors be their Nakba.
26 posted on 09/18/2002 8:43:04 AM PDT by monkeyshine
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To: BenF
Related Articles:
A Hatred Beyond Understanding
Source: Sierra Times; Published: September 9, 2002; Author: Alan Caruba

Saving Islam from bin Laden [Christopher Hitchens]
Source:The Age (Melbourne); Published: September 5 2002; Author: Christopher Hitchens

Muslim leaders pledge to 'transform West': 'If Islamic state rises, we will be its army'
Source: WorldNetDaily.com; Published: August 13, 2002; Author: Jon Dougherty

Today's Criminal Will Become Tomorrow's Islamic Terrorist
Source: CNSnews.com; Published: June 25, 2002; Author: C.T. Rossi

David Horowitz: Know The Enemy (And What He Believes)
Source: FrontPage magazine; Published: June 24, 2002; Author: David Horowitz

Four Myths About Muslims
Source: CNSNews.com; Published: June 13, 2002; Author: C.T. Rossi

Trying To Find A `Moderate' Islam Is A Quixotic Quest
Source: CNSNews.com; Published: May 20, 2002; Author: C.T. Rossi

The Islaming of Europe
Source: CNSNews.com; Published: May 20, 2002; Author: Alan Caruba

Why Islam Can't Join the Modern World
Source: FrontPageMagazine.com; Published: May 16, 2002; Author: Jamie Glazov

It's The Attitude, Stupid [re: Palestinians]
Source: Toogood Reports; Published: May 14, 2002; Author: Philip Safran

Reports of Moderate Islam's Existence Have Been Greatly Exaggerated
Source: CNSNews.com; Published: April 22, 2002; Author: C.T. Rossi

It's time to snap out of Arab fantasy land {Steyn}
Source: National Post; April 19 2002; Author: Mark Steyn

Islam Vs. The World
Source: Toogood Reports; Published: December 2, 2001; Author: Alan Caruba

Arab World Poverty -- Whose Fault?
Source: Capitalism Magazine; Published: 11/18/01; Author: Larry Elder

Will the Real Islam Please Stand Up!
Source:Van Jenerette Editorial Comment, Various Publications;
Published: October 14, 2001; Author: Van Jenerette

Civilization Envy
Source: National Review Online; Published: September 28, 2001; Author: Jonah Goldberg

Terror's Homebase, All Over The Map -- Jihad: The Trail of Political Islam
Source: Wall Street Journal-- Book Review; Published: | March 29, 2002; Author: Adrian Karatnycky

They Live to Die (Islam Martyrdom)
Source: Wall Street Journal; Published: April 7, 2002; Author: Reuel Marc Gerecht

20 Suppressed Facts About Israel, Islam
Source: Koenig's International News; Published: April 9, 2002; Author: Jim Bramlett

HOROWITZ: A MIDDLE EAST HISTORY PRIMER
Source: News and Opinion.com; Published; April 10, 2002; Author: David Horowitz

Arafat Must Go!
Source: CNSNews.com; Published: April 10, 2002; Author: Alan Caruba

Netanyahu speaks before US Senators
Source: http://netanyahu.org/netspeacinse.html; Published: April 10, 2002; Author: Benjamin Netanyahu


27 posted on 09/18/2002 8:45:10 AM PDT by Stand Watch Listen
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To: KellyAdmirer
I never said I had any idea of what a final Israeli victory would look like. In fact, I think the whole notion of a "final" military victory is ridiculous. That appears to be what the author of the piece suggests the US has deprived Israel of achieving. I think that implication is obnoxious.

And I think you're mistaken. Not mistaken with regard to your comment on "final victory", etc., but with the implication you have derived from the article. Let's look at the sentence you originally commented on....

Israel was time and again forbidden the fruits of victory to secure her sovereignty.

There's no implication of a "final" victory.....now, you could question what the "fruits of victory" are necessary to secure sovereignty and how the US prevented Israel from achieving them.

It is historical fact that the US/UN has bailed out the Arabs once Israel started winning the whichever war the Arabs started. Whenever the Arabs attacked, neither the US nor the UN said anything. It was only once the tide turned against the attackers that the US and the UN intervened to prevent any more loses on the part of the Arabs.

Perhaps, "fruits of victory" could be simple translated as preventing the attackers from ever again launching an attack by making them formally surrender and demilitarizing. Simply put, the Arabs have never been forced to surrender to Israel. They never been made to realize that they "lost" a war. And that's very important from an Arab point of view.

You are, of course, free to persist in your view that "final victory" and "fruits of victory" are exactly the same thing without defining what that is. However, I don't think you can support that with any facts.

28 posted on 09/18/2002 8:52:07 AM PDT by BenF
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To: BenF
I always enjoyed Immanuel Winston. Always interesting to read him. Nice post.
29 posted on 09/18/2002 9:07:09 AM PDT by Nachum
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To: BenF
And I think you're mistaken. Not mistaken with regard to your comment on "final victory", etc., but with the implication you have derived from the article.

Well, that's the great thing about the US, everyone is free to express an opinion.

Let's look at the sentence you originally commented on....

Israel was time and again forbidden the fruits of victory to secure her sovereignty.

There's no implication of a "final" victory.....now, you could question what the "fruits of victory" are necessary to secure sovereignty and how the US prevented Israel from achieving them.

There is every implication of a possible final victory. You can't have fruits of victory without a victory. You can't have a victory at all unless the author thinks one is possible. In fact, the author straight out says not only that victory was possible, but that Israel actually achieved one, not just once, but several times:

In each war that Israel won, the Americans, Europeans and the Soviets would step in to insure that there was no final surrender by the Arabs.

How's that for facts?

It is historical fact that the US/UN has bailed out the Arabs once Israel started winning the whichever war the Arabs started.

LOL, is that right? That's not my recollection, but if you wish to try to prove it somehow, go right ahead.

Whenever the Arabs attacked, neither the US nor the UN said anything.I don't see any facts backing this up.

It was only once the tide turned against the attackers that the US and the UN intervened to prevent any more loses on the part of the Arabs.

Again, no facts. Since Israel would not be able to survive without massive US subsidies, the burden of proof is on those challenging US motivations.

Perhaps, "fruits of victory" could be simple translated as preventing the attackers from ever again launching an attack by making them formally surrender and demilitarizing. Simply put, the Arabs have never been forced to surrender to Israel. They never been made to realize that they "lost" a war. And that's very important from an Arab point of view.

So, victory entails ensuring the survival of the Israeli state. Pretty much what I said originally, though I question the utility of forcing the Arabs to acknowledge "defeat" in a latter-day Treaty of Versailles situation. "Defeat" as you define it would not stop terrorism one iota and perhaps only give it more impetus. "Demilitarizing" the Arabs would not solve the terrorism problem, either, and Israel has not been attacked in a major land war in almost 30 years.

You are, of course, free to persist in your view that "final victory" and "fruits of victory" are exactly the same thing without defining what that is. However, I don't think you can support that with any facts.

I don't need to supply any more facts than I have. I have given textual support for my questioning of the author's unsupported and biased attack on the US. But thanks very much for the permission to think what I like.

30 posted on 09/18/2002 9:18:44 AM PDT by KellyAdmirer
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To: BenF
Not only did the Americans not assist Israel in 1948 but America, along with Europe, embargoed arms shipments to Israel. [Emphasis added.]

Flatly not true.

Ben Gurion et al. ran away with the mandate and proclaimed the Israeli state as an explicitly Jewish state, and the leadership of the American Jewish Congress was in Harry Truman's office like a shot, to demand that Truman recognize Israel over and against the advice of the State Department. They proceeded to remind Harry of the very tight race he was facing, and basically told him that if he wanted another term as president, he'd either do what they wanted, or all the Jewish political money in America would be going to back Tom Dewey. That got around at the time (I think Margaret Truman was the source of the story) and made some people unhappy with the bareknuckle politics of it, but the AJC got what they wanted.

As for the people at State being supposed "Arabists" and sneaky anti-Semites, a) one wonders how they could be both pro-Arab and anti-Semitic, and b) I'm from the South, and I've never had any friends up there at State, either -- so what? The State Department has always been a WASP club, and they've always been snotty about letting other people in their treehouse. I can't remember the last Irish Secretary of State, can you?

The article, in summation, is a bit of a drone, full of self-righteous sorrow for oneself that doesn't help carry any of the essential points the writer wanted to make.

As for the arms embargo, the new Israeli state managed to get enough practical help to arm and field a force sufficient to defeat the Arabs, and there were an awful lot of contributions from American Jewry and other Americans that reached Israel, official arms embargo or no official arms embargo (on both sides? or just on the Israelis? -- the author doesn't say).

31 posted on 09/18/2002 9:22:59 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: KellyAdmirer
Israel has not been attacked in a major land war in almost 30 years.

Are you saying that all those scenes of carnage at Israeli bus stops, pizza parlors, bar mitzvahs, and discos are all imaginary?

32 posted on 09/18/2002 9:24:05 AM PDT by Alouette
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To: BenF
Final Victory Scenario.

Damascus a demil trading post straddling the borders of Turkiye and Israel. WestBank & Gaza, the "so called occupied territories" to quote Rumsfeld, part of Israel.

A democratic Iraq, a rump Saudi and a ProUS regime in Baghdad.

Howszat?
33 posted on 09/18/2002 9:24:15 AM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: Alouette
No, terrorism attacks are all too real. But there has not been an attempted invasion of Israel by ground forces since 1973. Terrorist attacks are not done with tanks and jet bombers and artillery which would be the subject of demilitarization. Demilitarizing the Arabs would not stop terrorist attacks imho.
34 posted on 09/18/2002 9:31:36 AM PDT by KellyAdmirer
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To: BenF
All the Terrorists in the last 10 years at least have been Arab Muslims.

Exagerration does a just cause no good, especially when a compelling case can be made without it. "Arab Muslims" are by no means the only terrorists, or sources of terrorism, within the last tens years. Non-Arab Muslims also have a role. The mullahtocracy of the Persian nation, Iran, probably edges out the Arab state, Syria, as the number one terrorist supporting government. Among non-Muslims we have narco-terrorists in Columbia and elsewhere, and extreme left groups like the Red Brigades still operating, and killing people, in Europe. Although it has yet to become deadly, eco-terrorism has caused significant property damage in the American West.

35 posted on 09/18/2002 9:38:58 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: KellyAdmirer
But there has not been an attempted invasion of Israel by ground forces since 1973.

So, is this supposed to be a good thing or a bad thing?

36 posted on 09/18/2002 9:39:54 AM PDT by Alouette
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To: Alouette
Well, I think the absence of war and related casualties is always a good thing. Unfortunately, demilitarization seldom works as a preventor of war, or there'd be a lot more of it going on.
37 posted on 09/18/2002 9:46:17 AM PDT by KellyAdmirer
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To: KellyAdmirer
I think the absence of war and related casualties

What is this? The senior prom?


38 posted on 09/18/2002 10:15:10 AM PDT by Alouette
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To: KellyAdmirer
I don't know what the author thinks an Israeli "victory" would look like.

Well, how about a negotiatiated peace treaty ending the war, recognizing Israels right to exist, and recognizing its borders for staters. Then they might consider promising to renounce terrorism. All that would have been available to the Israelis but for the intervention of the UN and the West after it's victories, when it would have been submit or die for the Arab governments involved.
39 posted on 09/18/2002 10:18:35 AM PDT by Kozak
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To: BenF
Arab leaders have no incentive to modernize or install democratic reforms

Actually, the Arab nations closest to the Democratic Republic ideal (and remember "close" is a relative word) are those with little tangible resources, specifically oil, i.e. Bahrain, Jordan, Tunisia, etc. Maybe more like benign dictatorships, but with some semblance of representation and law.

Take away the oil money, and these countries are no different than Benin or Cameroon (worse actually). Forced to produce "something" , as opposed to "nothing", they are more susceptable to external (ie WTO, etc.) pressure.

Complete energy independence would be nice but is not going to happen soon, but if we can take Iraq and Iran out of the "producing nothing but oil" categories, that will dry up money for PLO type intransience. This may not happen soon, but it MAY happen. Thats all Israel can hope for, unfortunately.

40 posted on 09/18/2002 10:25:33 AM PDT by Nonstatist
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To: KellyAdmirer
The major increase in terrorism really began with the Madrid talks. When the average Arab in the street saw that their violence got them concessions, it increased impetence to the call for random violence. The primary key was the continued offers of negotiations by Israeli leaders to the PLO, culminating in the Oslo talks. The Arabs saw that the Jews themselves would give them arms and training.

This final assault on Jews with homicide bombers is the result of the negotiations come to fruition. The only answer to it is to simply terminate all negotiations and annex all the land currently under Israeli control. All the leaders, including religious Islamic ones, who preach murder must be incarcerated, mosques demolished, and all murderous literature destroyed.

There is much more, but this is the only way to stop the bloodshed. When we came into Germany with Patton's army, we made the Germans do exactly the same. There can be no compromise with absolute evil. It must be rooted out and destroyed.

41 posted on 09/18/2002 11:09:02 AM PDT by Nachum
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To: KellyAdmirer
" Demilitarizing the Arabs would not stop terrorist attacks imho."

Well it certainly INHIBITED the Germans and the Japanese.

The arab world needs to be overrun, demilitarized occupied for a century, have the oil sucked out of it to pay for it's reconstruction and massive re education projects, and when that's done, perhaps some people's grandchildren wont be as bullheaded and moronic as you.
42 posted on 09/18/2002 11:31:26 AM PDT by Yehuda
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To: KellyAdmirer
It was only once the tide turned against the attackers that the US and the UN intervened to prevent any more loses on the part of the Arabs.

You said: Again, no facts. Since Israel would not be able to survive without massive US subsidies, the burden of proof is on those challenging US motivations.

There seems to be some cognitive dissonance in your response. Before '73 particularly, Israel functioned, as most small and new nations without a lot of natural resources do, on grants, loans, etc. to help in their economic growth and national security. What preceded '73 was a consistent threat of intervention by World powers if Israel pushed the envelop and secured a victory unequivocally. In 1967 Israel could have gone to Amman, Damascus, and Cairo if necessary to make the issue of victory fully demonstrable. Israel was threatened by both superpowers and this was particularly evident in '73 when again Israel in turning the tide of the war was prepared to achieve unequivocal surrender by marching into anyone of those Arab cities noted above.

While you were quick to point out the U.S.' help to Israel, more related to the point of the Yom Kippur War and forward (since as noted above Israel functioned without "massive U.S. subsidies" before the '73 War) you concurrently forgot to mention the massive amount of strategic and military aid the Soviets were pouring in to both Egypt and Syria. It is undisputed that the U.S. specifically intervened to stop Israel's progress in the War of independence, the 1956 War with Egypt, the '67 and '73 Wars. The latter two wars particularly the U.S. used Israel as a international pawn in its strategic Cold War against the Soviets. And one of the reasons for Egypts indebtedness to the U.S. and that which started the U.S. on its course of of buying the status quo in that region is the U.S.'s specific intervention in the Sinai in stopping Sharon from destroying the Egyptian Third Army thus saving Egypt's face in the Arab world. And of course this is partly the reason for the U.S.' straightjacket on Israel oil and their influence in the Arab countries.

43 posted on 09/18/2002 12:09:29 PM PDT by Lent
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To: Terriergal
Wow, what a great article. Thanks a million for the flag.
44 posted on 09/18/2002 12:16:00 PM PDT by BOBTHENAILER
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To: dennisw; TopQuark; Alouette; OKCSubmariner; veronica; weikel; EU=4th Reich; BrooklynGOP; ...
The Arab nations continue to whine and complain that America has unfairly deprived them of their victory over Israel since 1948. Somehow, in their fertile imagination where Arabs wander about in their fantasy land, they believe they are not to blame for losing six wars of intended annihilation to their hated enemy, the Jews. They claim that "It wasn't the Jews who met each attack with courage and fighting skills that beat them on the field of battle." Clearly, 'they' didn't lose to the despised Jews who, for centuries the Arab Muslims had designated as lowly habitants of most Arab lands. If it wasn't the Jews, who in the Arabs' fables and imagination were weak and cowardly, it must have been America, who they call "The Great Satan" that defeated them.

Middle East list

If people want on or off this list, please let me know.

45 posted on 09/18/2002 2:32:00 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: spodefly
Thanks for the ping.
46 posted on 09/18/2002 2:34:49 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: BenF
There are lies, and there are damned lies.
Islam is built on the latter.
47 posted on 09/18/2002 2:55:56 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: Alouette; BenF
Since an attack on Iraq appears more likely than six months ago, this might be worth re-reading. Though I often don't like his conclusions, van Creveld is a renowned military historian.

Sharon's plan is to drive Palestinians across the Jordan

48 posted on 09/18/2002 2:58:59 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: BenF; knighthawk
Bump for a great ping (and some rather heated discussion!).
49 posted on 09/18/2002 3:09:22 PM PDT by facedown
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To: sinclair
I bet there are several of us waiting to pounce. ;-)
50 posted on 09/18/2002 3:18:59 PM PDT by FreedomPoster
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