Skip to comments.IRISH TRAVELERS - Experts shed light on reclusive, nomadic clans that roam the country
Posted on 09/25/2002 7:58:25 AM PDT by NYer
DALLAS (AP) _ The tearful testimonial Madelyne Gorman Toogood gave in front of glaring TV cameras after she was videotaped beating her daughter was starkly uncharacteristic of the reclusive, media-shy Irish Travelers culture to which she belongs, experts say. Toogood, who was caught beating her 4-year-old daughter, Martha, in a department store parking lot, said she is a member of the clannish, nomadic culture of Irish descendants, most of whom came to the United States as refugees during the potato famine in the 1840s. ``By nature, they're very reclusive people,'' said Joe Livingston, a South Carolina state investigator who has been tracking Travelers for nearly two decades. ``They tend to shy away from publicity.''
Some law enforcement experts who have studied the culture paint it as a secret society, fond of material wealth evidenced by gaudy jewelry and new vehicles. Police often associate Travelers with scams involving fraudulent home repair that target the elderly. They tend to use aliases, carry bogus identification cards, and avoid contact with non-Travelers, whom they call ``country folk,'' authorities said.
But professors and academics said the reclusiveness is a defense mechanism against stereotypes and the ancient persecution that has haunted nomadic peoples throughout history. Travelers, who may be Irish, English, or Scottish, have no more criminals among them than any other ethnic culture, experts said. ``If there were, they could not sustain their living,'' said Larry Otway, who began studying Irish Travelers in 1977 and has worked as a paralegal and adviser on court cases involving Scottish travelers. What the clans in the culture do share, Otway said, is a nomadic lifestyle, a language called ``Scelta'' with roots in Gaelic and Romani, an almost ``pathologic'' devotion to Catholicism, and an anti-bureaucratic form of self government that he describes as a ``consensus democracy.''
The largest Traveler settlement is a group of 3,000 in Murphy Village, S.C., experts said. Toogood is believed to belong to the Greenhorn Carrolls, a Traveler group in the Fort Worth area. Estimates of the U.S. Traveler population vary from 20,000 to 100,000. Ian F. Hancock, a professor at the University of Texas who wrote the Irish Travelers entry for the Encyclopedia of the South, said a distraught Toogood called him Thursday seeking advice. ``She was scared to turn herself in because she knows very well how the police feel about the Irish Travelers,'' said Hancock, who has a reputation as a sympathizer of the group. ``She didn't think she'd get a fair shake and she knew she'd been rough with the child.''
Toogood, who also has two young sons, remains free on a $5,000 bond and is scheduled to appear in court Oct. 7. If convicted, she faces up to three years in prison. She was scheduled to have a 90-minute supervised meeting with her daughter on Tuesday but the child, who is in foster care, was sick. An attorney for the state said Toogood would be allowed to see Martha on Wednesday if the girl has recovered from the flu.
Hancock and other academics said they believe Toogood's case has been sensationalized by the media because of her ethnicity. ``As bad as what she did, and it's inexcusable, I still think there's an awful lot of profiling going on,'' Hancock said. ``Very much is being made of her ethnic background. If she were German American or Italian American, would that even be an issue?''
Have any of you encountered these people at mass?
They had a decidedly "midwestern" air about them; sort of like offspring of the "dust bowl" immigrants of the thirties. One morning they were just gone. Vanished.
Upon inspecting the "garage" areas, we found thousands of cancelled checks, and unwritten checkbooks, with hundreds of different names. It was very weird.
AP connects the dots:
1) Pathologic devotion to Catholicism = devout Catholic
2) Pathologic devotion to Catholicism = nomadic theif
3) Devout Catholic = nomadic thief.
Arggggh, it has nothing to do with ethnicity! It's the violence, the crime. Duh, Mr. Hancock. Liberal academic types just can't drop their race card mentalities.
Boy, oh boy! Playing the race card. From my tv news sources: CNN, MSNBC and Fox, they all ignored her Irish Traveller connection, except for the past couple of days on Fox.
Of all the scurrilous crap for them to end the story with. If the "case has been sensationalized by the media" it's because it's on video. Any beating on video, especially of an apparent innocent (like, most clearly, a 4-year-old) is going to get a lot of airplay.
Now, because most people have never even heard of her ethnic background (and I would argue that Irish Travelers are a behavioural subset of an ethnicity), it gets some mention. But that's not "profiling." Obviously, she wasn't videotaped because of ethnic profiling or bigotry on the part of the mall, and she wasn't looked for or arrained because of her ethnicity either.
Oh come on. Any nomadic, insular society will have more criminals precisely because such a lifestyle makes detection much less likely. This is the same reason the anonymity of the city allows for more con-men and other criminals who face their victim, whereas stable, non-nomadic, smaller societies will have very few con-men, robbers and other visible criminals, because people know each other, where they live and how to find them.
"Regarding non-Gypsy law: They are obeyed but they are not complied with. Gypsies never fight against constituted authority; they simply agree to do what they are told to do, pretend to accept the assumptions of the stronger party and then, in their time-honored way, they keep on doing what they have always done..."
You are obviously a smart person to have emptied you purse. I don't know enough about either group to say anything other than they have more than their share of Con-Men and Con-Women.
Lots of them showed up with children and NO TOYS or anything to keep the children occupied. The children were expected to sit and not bother. One got out of line, and the mother said to her(pointing at me)"See that woman over there? She is a policewoman and she has a gun in her purse. If you aren't good, she will shoot you."
They were also deliberately vulgar, belching and spitting in the wastebaskets. They tried to make us leave, but as my dad had had heart surgery I wasn't going anywhere.
I think the children live hard lives, and are old at a young age. In our area, we notice that the little girls, as young as 4 or 5, wear full make-up and are dressed very jazzy for their ages.
The Greenhorn Carrolls attend St. Patrick's Cathedral in downtown Ft. Worth. According to the associate pastor there, Fr. Dennis Smith, they are very generous and faithful about attending Mass, but do tend to put the arm on parishioners as they're leaving Mass, asking for "coins" for the bus, then drive away in Cadillas Escalades. Most of the parishioners are on to them, however.
No. Gypsies are originally from the Indus Valley. They were given (10k at a time), by their king, to the Iranians thousands of years ago as servants. As they migrated around, the first encountered by the Europeans had migrated from Egypt. The Europeans wrongly thought that they were Egyptians and called them 'Gypsies'.
Are you actually suggesting that if someone is labeled as a "Devout Catholic" that means they are pro-choice? Are you presenting her two children as evidence that she aborts? Your logic escapes me.
Ack!! I cannot believe I am defending this lousy, childbeating Traveler monster .. but I could not allow your ridiculous conclusion about Catholics, to go unchallenged.
Okay. The answer is still no.
I'm just waiting for someone to make a reference to Libertarians.
Bless the individual who invented the money belt. The European gypsies, I believe, are originally from Romania. They are scattered all over the large cities and often use their children to scam the tourists. Americans are suckers for kids!
Hey, wait a minute. I have a teenager like that!
For instance,their original Gaelic-based language is, in this country, no longer much in use - according to a gentleman who apparently knows them quite well .English,spoken with a Southern accent, is pretty much what you'll hear.
The Travellers are unrelated to the Gypsies. Gypsies are SAID to have originated in India, and speak a language which has "Indo-European" roots. In Ireland,both groups are migratory . In the USA, both groups tend to settle in close-knit communities, and travel to their working areas.
Some say the Travellers are honest tradesmen, whose reputation is spoiled by a few "bad apples". Others say MOST Travellers are bad apples.
My own guess -and it is strictly a guess-is that a society which chooses to keep itself apart, and which is not fond of "outside authority" , will not take it too much amiss if some of its members do questionable things in "the outside world". It may even celebrate the more outrageous "scores" - just as the old Irish clans, in pre-Christian,pre-Roman days , used to celebrate a successful bit of cattle rustling...as long as the activity was not conducted in their own back yards !
I fuc*ing hate Pikeys...
Ha Ha. Sure, until she realizes she needs something from me.
Sounds like something from the X-files. Real life is stranger than fiction.
Apparently, they aren't Gypsies/Roma at all -- they are native Irish who became nomadic long ago.
They were really bad on the Metro. My father had a guy stick his hand in his pants pocket trying to get some money when it was really crowded on the train, but he took the guy's hand away and told him in French to stop. The guy took on the classic "I'm a victim" attitude and we got off the train at the next stop, thankfully.
If you think they are bad in Paris, go to Milan and hang around a city park. Wow. There the kids do most of the dirty work while the adults lounge around and watch for the police. They will come up to you in groups of 6-8, mostly girls about 8-10 years old, and one or two will distract you trying to point out something in a day-old newspaper or something while the others are swarming around you trying to find your pants pocket or valuables in a backpack. Then POOF! as soon as the Carrabinieri turn the corner to patrol the park the kids and adults both disappear like a mist. It's amazing. They work really hard at stealing, if they just took up a normal line of work they would probably have an easier life.
Also, I think the Travellers in this country don't bother with pesky little things like paying taxes and such. That's why the law is usually after them, aside from the con artist aspect.
Anyone who commits fraud and theft (not to mention beating her own child) yet goes to mass weekly (perhaps accepting reconciliation weekly too) is in no way a true Catholic.