Archbishop in Newark bans group Organization formed following sex scandal

New Jersey Star Ledger ^ | October 11, 2002 | DAVID GIBSON

[ultima ratio]

Why then do you keep posting to me? I suggest you check your own postings. They invariably are condescending, and reveal a self-importance that is ludicrous at times--such as this request that I not post to you. If you can't handle a difference of opinion without getting upset, why not just get off the site?

[sinkspur]

We are in a struggle against worldwide Islam.

I wonder if John Paul II agrees with you.

[sinkspur]

VOTF is an evil, subversive group.

There is absolutely no evidence that VOTF is "evil." It's also too early to tell whether they are "subversive" or not, but by outlining elimination of abusing clerics as their number one issue, they make the bishops look hysterical in their reactions.

Myers did the right thing.

The bishop who followed Myers in Peoria immediately suspended five priests who had abusive pasts. One has to wonder if Myers wasn't among those ecclesiastics who covered up wrongdoing.

[Texbob]

Yeah, I am dumb, I don't think Queers should run the church and I doubt you are wide awake.

[wideawake]

Whether the Holy Father is entirely cognizant of the enormity of the situation is immaterial. As a purely practical matter, Catholic missionaries are hard at work in territories like South Asia and Africa - areas which Islam has targeted for expansion.

St. Gregory VII was an excellent Pope, but his successor Bl. Urban II was a more astute judge of the Church's external historical situation than his predecessor.

When the next Lepanto arrives, God will provide His Church with a much-needed St. Pius V.

[wideawake]

No one here is arguing that sodomites should run anything. Focus on some remedial reading comprehension.

[american colleen]

I don't understand why the VOTF folks go and form their own church?

VOTF is all over the news here (Boston) all the time - my 13 year old was watching a news story on them intently the other day, and she said "why don't they just make up their own church? It seems like that's what they want to do." --- of course, she's been exposed to the picketing and yelling and disgusting signs outside of the Holy Cross Cathedral, Cardinal Law's parish.

[Campion]

You forgot homsexual priests

No, I included it in "committed gay relationships". The ECUSA has already ruled that can find no "core doctrine" preventing them from ordaining openly active homosexuals. (cf the heresy trial of a priest named Walter Righter).

VOTF is part of the crowd that would like to turn the Catholic Church into a clone of the Episcopalians.

[ultima ratio]

It's not been demonstrated that VOTF is anything but a grass-roots organization which attracts liberals and conservatives alike. It seems to me--until proven otherwise--like a polyglot outfit made up of angry lay people from all walks of life. If conservatives don't like its make-up--then let them organize on the right. This they won't do because they won't buck the system but make excuses for it ad nauseam.

[Desdemona]

Sinky, I know people who are chomping at the bit to get one of these started here. They are not friends either. They're plain and simply leftists who want they're own way.

Every archdiocese had clean-up. Even mine. John May, our previous archbishop was a good man, but there were some administrative messes when he died.

[sinkspur]

They're plain and simply leftists who want they're own way.

OK. But I think it's harsh to call them "evil" because you don't agree with them.

[Desdemona]

But I think it's harsh to call them "evil" because you don't agree with them.

You don't know these people.

[arthurus]

The "dissent" involved here is from more-or-less protestants who wish to retain the "Catholic" label. They are not orthodox and not faithful to the tenets of the Catholic Church. It is the same dissenters and liberals who have tried for more that 30 years to democratize and pretty much dissolve the Church. They think they see an opportunity in the sex scandals to seize control of the American church from Rome and the Roman bishops.

[yendu bwam]

This group is basically one which includes all sorts of people who are (rightfully) disgusted by what has happened within the Church with regard to the homosexual abuse of teenage boys. However, a huge contingent of this group is, as Myers contends, interested in shoving aside Catholic belief and in running things the way it wants. Myers is right to shun this group. However, when ANY concerned group has good ideas with regard to this situation, and which do not run counter to Catholicism, then the archbishop should consider them. But I say, good for Myers. He has some guts. Now he needs to use them to weed out his diocese, and but good.

[arthurus]

which attracts liberals and conservatives alike.

At first it attracted some conservatives but those conservatives mostly bailed or simply did not adhere after the first hour or 2.

[ultima ratio]

Okay--I'll take your word for it. I know they've been accused of having a liberal bias--but I'm still waiting for a comparable conservative response to the recent scandals. It took EWTN an eon to get up the gumption to even mention them critically. Conservatives respect authority and that is all well and good in normal times. But these are not normal times. Wolves in sheep's clothing are prowling about--and they roam the halls of the Vatican as well as the Bishops' Conference Building in Washington.

[arthurus]

I'm still waiting for a comparable conservative response

You should read "The Wanderer" or "Crisis" or "New Oxford Review" or any number of conservatie Catholic publications, some of which have been on this for 20 years. The "mainstream" Catholic periodicals are mostly far left and anti-magisterium or they are middle-of-the road and fear to speak on the issue lest the leftists speak bakly of them.

[american colleen]

There is absolutely no evidence that VOTF is "evil." It's also too early to tell whether they are "subversive" or not, but by outlining elimination of abusing clerics as their number one issue, they make the bishops look hysterical in their reactions.

I'm not gonna call them "evil" because I think a lot of well-meaning Catholics belong to the group (that has been my first-hand observation, anyway). But the members are terribly naive if they haven't noticed CTA, Corpus, Leonard Swidler, Womans Ordination Conference, We are Church, etc., etc., are being welcomed by the hierarchy of VOTF with open arms. Take a look at the speakers at the July convention. Up until yesterday you could view their "recommended reading" page... but it's been removed. It formerly contained books by nuns like Joan? Chittsler (sp)and the "Catholic Constitution" by Anthony Massimini and had no mention of anything written by anyone other than lefties (for lack of a better term), and nothing written by the Catholic Church (like the catechism) now, after a lot of people here in Boston cited the reading list, its been pulled and only a link to the documents of Vatican II is there (which wasn't there before).

How have they outlined their own plan for removing abusing clerics? What has been mentioned is the democratic election of bishops and lay-boards run by VOTF members to screen priests being sent by the hierarchy to parishes.

The latest problem is the VOTF hierarchy wanting to circumvent the Catholic hierarchy in matters of money.

I find it amusing and tellling that the chat room on the VOTF site was pulled because people were asking for a clarification of VOTF's goals and asking how VOTF could be centrist with the list of invited speakers at the July convention.

[gcruse]

I don't think Queers should run the church

I hadn't hear that the bishops were homosexual.

[sinkspur]

How have they outlined their own plan for removing abusing clerics?

They've advocated that the bishops follow their own guidelines.

What has been mentioned is the democratic election of bishops and lay-boards run by VOTF members to screen priests being sent by the hierarchy to parishes.

The latest problem is the VOTF hierarchy wanting to circumvent the Catholic hierarchy in matters of money.

It's called pressure. Polycarp and his fellow protesters put pressure on Bishop Adamec last weekend over the Jose Hobday appearance.

Gov. Frank Keating hasn't gone to the VOTF extreme, but he has recommended financial pressure if a bishop is recalcitrant in upholding the guidelines.

What options do lay people have in dealing with obstinate hierarchs? They either organize and raise hell (something VOTF is doing), bring financial pressure, or leave.

You'd rather they leave, but they are not going to leave.

I haven't seen VOTF take any stands on anything other than the abuse crisis. When they do, if they advocate something contrary to doctrine, I'll be right alongside you. But things like optional celibacy, popular election of bishops, and more consultation on non-doctrinal matters are perfectly acceptable topics of discussion, since they are not items of faith.