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Police spotted suspects' car 10 times during sniper spree (PC killed more innocents!)
Washington Post via Mecury News Link ^ | 26 Oct 2002 | Craig Whitlock and Josh White

Posted on 10/26/2002 7:14:35 AM PDT by Grampa Dave

``We were looking for a white van with white people, and we ended up with a blue car with black people,'' said Washington, D.C., Police Chief Charles Ramsey, whose department ran the Caprice's license Oct. 3, just hours before a fatal shooting in Washington that has been tied to the sniper suspects, John Allen Muhammad, 41, and John Lee Malvo, 17.

(Excerpt) Read more at bayarea.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Front Page News; US: District of Columbia; US: Maryland; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: johnallenmuhammad; johnleemalvo; pckills; pcmoose
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Because the cops were looking for dangerous White Male Christian Gun Nuts, the real killers were stopped 10 ten time and released.

Just more proof that Political Correctness can kill innocent people and waste million of $'s with police profiling and look for evil whites due to their bosses ignoring solid leads.

Since the original came from the Washington Post, you will have to go the link to read the entire article.

1 posted on 10/26/2002 7:14:35 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Admin Moderator
Since this was on the front page and was breaking news for the Mercury, I posted this in breaking news.

It may be time to move even these front page stories re the Snipers to Extended News. It is up to you to make the call.
2 posted on 10/26/2002 7:16:40 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
And everyone was marveling at how easily these people just disappeared into thin air after each shooting. That notion led to even more misinformation, such as the snipers must know the area like the backs of their hands, etc.


3 posted on 10/26/2002 7:19:11 AM PDT by randita
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To: Grampa Dave
It's almost like these snipers, while creeping around after murders with their headlights off, had moles working on the task force pushing the "White Man White Van" theory for them.
4 posted on 10/26/2002 7:22:02 AM PDT by spycatcher
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To: Grampa Dave
And the silence of the libs and Dems is deafening. You know they were salivating, primed to start blaming Bush, talk radio, etc. if the sniper was "the angry white male".
5 posted on 10/26/2002 7:22:26 AM PDT by lds23
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To: spycatcher
It's almost like these snipers, while creeping around after murders with their headlights off, had moles working on the task force pushing the "White Man White Van" theory for them.
Almost. </sarcasm>

Not explicitly in cahoots, but "enemy of my enemy" de facto.


6 posted on 10/26/2002 7:27:06 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: Grampa Dave
Anyone else notice how often these guys and "YMCA" come up in the same sentence? Both in this article and others about their life near Seattle they hang out at the Y.

Funny rumor from another post too that they weren't really "sleeping" at the rest stop either.
7 posted on 10/26/2002 7:28:10 AM PDT by spycatcher
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To: Grampa Dave
An interesting headline. PC kills!

Is it me or is there a lack of English acumen in today's media. The cable news weenies report that Sen Wellstone was KILLED in an airplane crash. Did he DIE or was he KILLED. I see a difference but today's crop of news editors don't.

Is it me?

8 posted on 10/26/2002 7:30:00 AM PDT by Young Werther
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To: Grampa Dave
How hard is it to search a car for a rifle? A 34" long rifle? Where could you hide it?

But, of course, that would be an "unreasonable search" and would require a search warrant - according to our courts.

Given that they were checking the car's plates for violations, a serach for a rifle would take LESS time. Remember: these two were pretty dumb - (just not as dumb as the DC cops).

9 posted on 10/26/2002 7:31:16 AM PDT by RossA
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To: spycatcher
The reason the people got away was because cops were looking for a white van. Everyone was programmed to look for a white van with a ladder rack. Profiling the suspect as white was standard. But it was not the cop's fault these guys were not taken to task. NOBODY saw them shoot anyone.
10 posted on 10/26/2002 7:31:39 AM PDT by merry10
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To: Grampa Dave
I noted with interest your comment a while back about how police sometimes interviewed teachers, either active or retired, in order to see if they recognized the handwriting of a criminal's note.

And now we find out that the police did indeed go to the high school in Bellingham, WA, to get samples of Malvo's handwriting. Though they did so after the fact, the principle is the same as the one you pointed out. You were right.
11 posted on 10/26/2002 7:32:01 AM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: randita
Once the evidence got out of control and censorship by the Politically Correct Crowd, the case was rapidly solved.

Rita Cosby (I hope that is her name) broke the news about the license plate and the car's description. That got out on more news. The brave truck driver heard the car description and saw the plates and blocked the exit from that rest stop.

One of the ladies at a dinner party we went to last night, said that he tried to call the police about the car and got shuffled around. He gave up and called a radio station. Then when he called again, he got a response. It would be interesting to see the time line on his calls, responses if any and what he had to do to insure that the killers did not leave.
12 posted on 10/26/2002 7:34:52 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: merry10
But it was not the cop's fault these guys were not taken to task. NOBODY saw them shoot anyone.

Hindsight is 20/20, but the cops did have two opportunities to nail the snipers:

1. The tipline received an anonymous call suggesting John Malvo be checked out. The tip was disregarded due to his age.

2. There was a witness who described a brown or burgundy Caprice leaving one of the crime scenes, but for some reason that vehicle never received the notoriety of the "white van/box truck".

In context, both may have been a bit thin at the time.

13 posted on 10/26/2002 7:36:22 AM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: spycatcher
I don't know about moles. However, they had a Politically Correct Moose doing what he did in Portland, Or and why he got the job in Montgomery County. Nothing goes out about rainbow suspects. Only evil white guys get a Bola warning.

This was standard practice in Portland after the PC moosing of the police department was accomplished.
14 posted on 10/26/2002 7:37:42 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
The thing that amazes me is the most suspicious car seen leaving the shootings.... slowly with its lights out is hardly mentioned by police.....and this was the one!!

And worst yet it was early in the shooting spree.

There is no doubt police methods will be reformed by this killer. While the public is grateful, the killer was caught, the sloppy police activities make one wonder if the police or the killers were more incompetent.

15 posted on 10/26/2002 7:37:45 AM PDT by oldcomputerguy
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To: spycatcher
Funny rumor from another post too that they weren't really "sleeping" at the rest stop either.

hehe..
yeah..you know what these "rest stops" are famous for. Especially for islamist terrorists murdering thugs.

16 posted on 10/26/2002 7:38:03 AM PDT by evad
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To: Young Werther
Blame me for the PC add on comment.

However you are correct. Whenever a gang banger is shot down in an urban area. The headlines will often state "Victim killed by gun!"

My favorite is undocumented worker or persons.

Good pick up on this.
17 posted on 10/26/2002 7:40:32 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: RossA
But, of course, that would be an "unreasonable search" and would require a search warrant - according to our courts.

Of course! We need to get rid of all that bill of rights stuff right away! We need a safe society, not a free one. After all, if the police had unrestricted search and seizure powers, we could search everyone all the time. At home, in thier cars, their businesses, bank accounts, financial and personal papers. For no reason at all, just to be sure they weren't committing some crime. I'm sure you wouldn't mind. after all if you have nothing to hide why would you object?

18 posted on 10/26/2002 7:42:32 AM PDT by templar
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To: Grampa Dave
Maybe the killers should have painted a sign on their car telling the police they were the killers.
19 posted on 10/26/2002 7:44:05 AM PDT by nmh
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To: Grampa Dave
"We were looking for a white van with white people..." said Washington, D.C., Police Chief Charles Ramsey,

"containing the killers of Chandra Levy."

Just rubbing it in.

20 posted on 10/26/2002 7:44:31 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets
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To: Young Werther
The cable news weenies report that Sen Wellstone was KILLED in an airplane crash. Did he DIE or was he KILLED. I see a difference but today's crop of news editors don't.

hmmmmm....what makes you think it was an error? [I'd add more speculating but would be accused of tin-foiling.]
21 posted on 10/26/2002 7:45:00 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: evad
Especially for islamist terrorists murdering thugs.

An assumption. Just like an assumption about white guys in a white van. Assumptions are dangerous things, they get people killed.

22 posted on 10/26/2002 7:45:10 AM PDT by templar
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To: Grampa Dave
Political correctness is the ultimate example of the old story about "the emperor's new clothes". The liberals have imposed a social belief system on america for which there is no rational defense...thus in order to maintain the system, they must rely of the creation of social taboos. This allows them to avoid ration discussion, and simply utilize social ostracism.

This results in some truly amazing things. Namely, those of us outside the matrix of PC mind control watch with our mouths agape as otherwise intelligent persons talk and behave as though they don't recognize facts which everyone knows exist around them. Its like a self-imposed game of mental pretend.

23 posted on 10/26/2002 7:45:42 AM PDT by quebecois
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To: lds23
We went to a dinner party last night. Two of the men attending, collect older firearms as a hobby. I think one may have had a speeding ticket in the twenty+ years that we know them.

I broke up the party when I said that I was glad that they weren't arrested for the sniping since they were evil/vile White Christian Gun nuts. That went into a conversation about how the good street cops in the DC area were miss lead by their PC supervisors and had contacts with the Caprice and these two murderers. At that time we thought that it was only 3 contacts. Now we find out that it was at least 10 times.

I'm sure that some Politically Correct/Pink Panty Diversity Queens in the DC metro police force are still looking for my two white Christian Conservative Friends who collect guns with zero crimes in their lifetime.
24 posted on 10/26/2002 7:46:49 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: lds23; Grampa Dave
And the silence of the libs and Dems is deafening. You know they were salivating, primed to start blaming Bush, talk radio, etc. if the sniper was "the angry white male".

The media at large is deperatley attempting to omit the Islamic Calypso Louie link. The Fresno Bee's headlines, on the morning after the arrests, implied that we should feel sorry for this Islamic sniper, cause life was not fair to him. Plus the front page had a largepicture of the Bushmaster rifle, as if it was the real suspect.

Grampa Dave, you were well ahead of the curve by pointing out the pc dilemma in this investigation. Good Work!

25 posted on 10/26/2002 7:47:06 AM PDT by Clovis_Skeptic
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To: Grampa Dave
EXACTLY!!! It is "police" like Moose who are giving law enforcement an even worse name! he needs to go teach a class at PSU on how to live life in a purple dinosaur suit!
26 posted on 10/26/2002 7:47:19 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: oldcomputerguy; All
Check out www.chiefmoose.com
27 posted on 10/26/2002 7:47:59 AM PDT by LiveFreeOrDie2001
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To: Grampa Dave
Locator ^
28 posted on 10/26/2002 7:49:18 AM PDT by backhoe
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To: RossA
Apparently, it took 3 hours to get a warrant from a judge to search the Caprice after the two Nation of Islam Serial Killers were arrested.

Can you imagine a good street cop during the sniping trying to get a warrant when the PCers were insisting that evil White Guys in evil white vehicles were the killers? It would never happen, and that cop would ended his/her career in that PC ruled police department.
29 posted on 10/26/2002 7:49:45 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
I don't blame you for the headline. I believe that your use of the verb "to kill" is semantically accurate while the Wellstone headlines would be D- if I were correcting their essays!
30 posted on 10/26/2002 7:49:48 AM PDT by Young Werther
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To: nmh
As it is, the graphic Moose had of the "white van" was wrong.

Moose didn't bust this case; the FBI did.


31 posted on 10/26/2002 7:51:00 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Grampa Dave
Interesting article. But, was it just me or does anyone else remember a press briefing where Moose was asked about the "dark car"? (Early in the snipings) In which he responded we need to concentrate on the white van. I'm pretty sure I saw it but I would like someone else who saw it confirm that for me.( Just to prove to me I havent lost my mind!)
32 posted on 10/26/2002 7:52:25 AM PDT by Madcelt
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To: LiveFreeOrDie2001
What a crock! It has to be humor. There is no way someone could be that stupid.
33 posted on 10/26/2002 7:52:31 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
If you want to kill someone and not be get arrested.

You kill someone like a Foster or a Chandra Levy in DC or some other Goron voting inner city/urban area ruled by left wing mayors, city councils, the ACLU, left wing DA's and of course only pc left wing news organizations rule the media.
34 posted on 10/26/2002 7:52:56 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
Whenever a gang banger is shot down in an urban area. The headlines will often state "Victim killed by gun!"

How'd you like it when Moose kept saying how glad he was that the murder weapon was off the streets??!!

I kept yelling at the TV, "I'm glad the PERPS are off the streets!!"

35 posted on 10/26/2002 7:54:34 AM PDT by alley cat
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To: RedBloodedAmerican; All
On www.chiefmoose.com, there's a post thread.

IT'S A LOVE FEST !!!

IS IT TIME TO FREEP IT...???

36 posted on 10/26/2002 7:55:21 AM PDT by LiveFreeOrDie2001
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To: templar
Assumptions are dangerous things, they get people killed.

Actually my comment was somewhat "tongue in cheek" but you point about assumptions can actually go both ways.

At any rate, I'm not going to second guess the police work in this case or assume that it could or couldn't have been better. I will say that solving this unique case that didn't fit any previous patterns in 22 days sounds pretty good to me.

This unprecedented cooperation between departments (local, state & Federal) along with unlimited resources may have set a new standard.

Now, if I could feel as confident about our court system...

37 posted on 10/26/2002 7:57:38 AM PDT by evad
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To: Devil_Anse
Thanks for this comment: And now we find out that the police did indeed go to the high school in Bellingham, WA, to get samples of Malvo's handwriting. Though they did so after the fact, the principle is the same as the one you pointed out. You were right.

My mother is a retired school teacher. The good cops whenever they got a hand written note from a possible perp would got to the teachers in the areas to see if they recognized the writing, the use of words and phrases. The good teachers often would remember.

Glad to hear the Bellingham police did this even if it was after the fact.

Most of our cops are good men and women and if not harassed by PC chiefs and protocols will get out in the street, schools, market areas and places of employment to talk to good people. This is good police work. The PC maggots hate this type of police work as they have no control over the evidence and flow that can take place if this is allowed.

38 posted on 10/26/2002 7:58:22 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
But they're "pur heroes in blue"!

They are our "government protectors"!

The snipers were caught because of "good old fashoied cop shoe leather, dogger police work"!

The sniper was caught because he WANTED to be caught and/or was so stupid he unintentionally turned himself in, essentially confessing all the needed facts in a telephone call that connected him to a robbery where he left his fingerprints, which had been taken and recorded by the INS when he was in custody as an illegal alien. It helped that neighbors in Tacoma told police that he was a suspect.

So, the cops ran the fingerprints, and identified the guy, and were able to use ordinary DMV databases to ID the car so that a citizen to find it. Where is the brilliant detective work here?

More telling is how our "government protectors" had the snipers in their grasp, but let them drive away. Was there evidence to suggest that transients living in their cars might be suspects? Especially when a witness to an early shooting described the Caprice at the scene? Perhaps this is hindsight, but it makes on wonder whether our government "protectors" failed us. Will the families of the later shooters sue the cops for letting the killers go?

Also, our sniper bought the rifle in spite of the prohibition on restraining-ordered people from doing so, somehow getting past the leaky sieve of our government's background check process. Again, our government "protectors" failed.

The younger sniper is an illegal alien, who was in custody of the INS, who released them for no apparent legal reason. Would the killings have occurred if the shooter lacked a trusted driver with a hatred of America? Did our government "protectors" make the killings possible?

Yet this and all other safety and security issues seem inexorably to lead to more government power, and fewer citizen liberties.

Do we really need to pat the cops on the back for being lucky enough to catch killers only because they essentially turned themselves in? Bare competence is hardly cause for accolades.

Another thought: there may have been some voice scrambling employed, but if not, those various calls must have provided the politically incorrect probability that it was a black man's voice on the line. If so, was this critically useful piece of information withheld from the public for political reasons?

Please let me know if any of my factual assumptions are wrong.
39 posted on 10/26/2002 8:00:04 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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To: alley cat
What you posted is the typical Bravo Sierra verbiage from a PC police chief"

How'd you like it when Moose kept saying how glad he was that the murder weapon was off the streets??!!

I kept yelling at the TV, "I'm glad the PERPS are off the streets!!"

Forget the Nation of Islam serial murderers who had been caught, the evil gun was off the streets!

Thanks for bring this back up.

40 posted on 10/26/2002 8:01:26 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: quebecois
..those of us outside the matrix

OOOOO..an analogy to "The Matrix".

I like it...can I use it?

41 posted on 10/26/2002 8:03:19 AM PDT by evad
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To: quebecois
"ration discussion"?

Is this a vittles topic? .. or just more food for thought?

42 posted on 10/26/2002 8:06:15 AM PDT by Young Werther
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To: oldcomputerguy
When you look at the PC driven investigations, the good evidence/reports is often buried or trashed in the first 2 or 3 days. That way their PC agenda of who the probable Perps might be set into motion.

It was so bad that the killer couldn't even talk to those collecting the data.

When Moose stood up and had a mail in tip address with a corrected zip code in today's world of emails, faxes, phones and voice mail, we knew that they were not interested in tips. How slow is the mail in that area? What if someone in Tacoma, Washington or in Alabama had a tip and mailed it in?
43 posted on 10/26/2002 8:07:34 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: nmh
No one would have believed them if they spray painted with International Glow Orange on the Caprice: WE ARE THE SNIPERS! PLEASE ARREST US AND STOP FROM KILLING!

They were Black and driving a dark colored Caprice not white guys in a white van. So they would have been dismissed as kooks.

44 posted on 10/26/2002 8:10:34 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
what gets me is that the car seems to have been physically altered to be a shooting platform - a cut-out in the trunk, and a rear seat removed so that the shooter could lie down - and the police did not notice this.

also did they enter all the license plate numbers of the cars they stopped? yes, because they know they had stopped this car 10 times. so where is the search that pulls up all the plates that show up twice, thrice, five times, ten times?

45 posted on 10/26/2002 8:14:52 AM PDT by heartwood
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To: Beelzebubba
None of your assumptions are wrong!

Most good police work is not brillant. It is hard work to find linking data/facts that leave a trail to the bad guy.

I still believe that most street cops want to do this dirty work to find the bad guys. However in many cases their PC police chiefs don't want the bad guys caught.

I'm reposting part of your comments with no comments from me, except to say, you probably are not the first to raise this question: "Another thought: there may have been some voice scrambling employed, but if not, those various calls must have provided the politically incorrect probability that it was a black man's voice on the line. If so, was this critically useful piece of information withheld from the public for political reasons?"
46 posted on 10/26/2002 8:16:39 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Beelzebubba
Thanks yours is the best summary yet. I am glad that they were caught but the cheek kissing is killing me...
47 posted on 10/26/2002 8:18:38 AM PDT by Afronaut
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To: Grampa Dave
Part of my job is doing statistical analysis, looking for trends in what seems like chaos. Databasing the license plates of all the car that were stopped at the roadblocks set up after each shooting would have been childs play. I am stunned that this was not being done.
48 posted on 10/26/2002 8:19:25 AM PDT by Straight Vermonter
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To: Clovis_Skeptic; ladyinred; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shermy; Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks, I wondered how the Fresno Bee would handle the reality that a member of the Nation Islam was a black serial killer of innocents. However, I could have written the headlines and cover story they and others will use.

Hey, isn't it great news as PC Moose noted, "That evil Bushmaster gun is off the streets. That evil gun can't kill anyone."

A sidebar, John Muhammed, the Nation of Islam body guard and serial killer, lived in Pinole, Ca. and served in the Monterey area while in the army.

I have to wonder if any of his frequent flyer trips from Bellingham, Wash. involved a trip to the former al Fuqra encampment in Clovis that you exposed just about a year ago.
Maybe he gave graduate school lessons in how to be a sniper and to kill innocent Americans to some of the great people in that former al Fuqra encampment.

Thanks for your links of Moose to Jake Reno and Bill the Clintoon.

49 posted on 10/26/2002 8:24:01 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
If I were a family member of one of the later victims, I'd sue the racist bastards.
50 posted on 10/26/2002 8:26:06 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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