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Moscow Counter-Terrorist Raid (Novel tactic used).
CNN ^ | Saturday, October 26, 2002. | Avril Stephens

Posted on 10/26/2002 1:55:34 PM PDT by spetznaz

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Russian special forces carried out a "novel" attack to end the Moscow theatre hostage crisis -- but incurred a high death toll in its execution, a military expert says.

About 750 people were saved in the dawn raid by Russian forces on Saturday, but 67 of the hostages died in the operation and a further 42 were taken to hospital, apparently suffering from gas inhalation.

A sleeping gas was used to confuse and disarm the 50 Chechen rebel hostage-takers during the storming of the building, in which all of the 75 non-Russians and 25 children are believed to have been freed unharmed.

Jim Condon, a military expert for UK security company AKE, told CNN: "Russian special forces had no option but to carry out the attack after the hostage-takers were reported to have begun carrying out their threat of killing the captives.

The use of a sedative gas was a unique and well-planned idea, put into place early on in the three-day siege.

"I have not seen a sleeping gas used before in such a situation," Condon said.

"It seems it was in the Russian arsenal and they had planned to use it. They could not have got it into place so quickly on Saturday morning otherwise. It was part of their repertoire and they were working to a plan."

The Russian special forces faced a unique situation, with so many people having been taken, being held in a such a small building and with so many well-armed terrorists around them. It would have been easy for the rebels to have killed all the hostages, Condon said.

Television footage showed Russian troops calmly approaching the building before the raid.

"They knew the gas would have been used and that there would be minimum resistance, and they did not want to cause any unnecessary disturbances," Condon added. The elite Alpha force, part of Russia's former KGB, had carried out other preparational work such as getting people into the theatre, to ascertain who was in the building, the numbers involved, and how well armed they were.

The building was reported to have been booby-trapped, with mines at the entrances and exits as well as passageways and on the seats. Some of the women hostage-takers had explosives strapped to their waists and a huge bomb was in the centre of auditorium.

It is not clear how many of these went off, if any. Special forces searching the building after the operation said they found 30 devices.

The Russians knew what they were up against in the character of the hostage-takers, having been faced with previous Chechen attacks, Condon said.

The biggest was in a southern Russian hospital in 1995 when 1,000 patients were held captive at Budyonnovsk, near the border with Chechnya.

Russian troops unsuccessfully stormed the hospital twice, and more than 100 civilians, police and soldiers died in the gun battles.

Seventy-eight people, including police offices, soldiers and civilians, were killed in a separate incident six months later when another group of Chechen rebels raided a hospital in the southern Russian town of Kizlyar, taking hundreds of hostages and using them as human shields.

"The Chechens have acted extremely brutally in the past. They are willing to die, there is no doubt about that," Condon said.

"We know they are absolutely committed to their cause. The use of women in the crisis is a political statement saying that the entire community is involved in their campaign."

They had used a Russian anniversary this weekend to highlight their cause on the international arena.

The crisis was proving to be the sternest test faced by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Anna Matreeva, of the London-based security organisation Safer World, told CNN Putin's options were not looking good, but that he was "forced to do something under public pressure and with all the international spotlight on him."

But the death of 67 hostages was a high toll.

"It is a success, but it has been tainted by the fact that so many innocent people have lost their lives," Condon added.

"Russia has proved that it is determined not to give into these Chechen rebels."

It is not clear how many of the captives were killed by the hostage-takers and how many were caught in the cross-fire with Russian troops.

"We have to find out through an autopsy on how the hostages died," Condom said.

(Excerpt) Read more at europe.cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Free Republic; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: chechnya; fsb; russia; spetsgruppaalfa; spetznaz; terrorists
Since it seems the media has not found it fitting to report on the events in Moscow (apart from brief sporadic reports on the hostage crisis quickly followed by hours on the plane crash and then more hours of 'talking heads' saying how the snipers were caught) i decided to post this.
1 posted on 10/26/2002 1:55:34 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
Putin rocks.
2 posted on 10/26/2002 2:00:19 PM PDT by ChadGore
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To: spetznaz
The biggest was in a southern Russian hospital in 1995 when 1,000 patients were held captive at Budyonnovsk, near the border with Chechnya.

So CNN recognizes a border between Russia and Chechnya?

3 posted on 10/26/2002 2:05:01 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter
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To: American72; PsyOp; VaBthang4; weikel
An excerpt showing the operation in Moscow to rescue the hostages from the Chechnyan terrorists (or maybe, like NPR, i should call them 'Chechnyan students,' or maybe Chechnyan rebels ....but never terrorists! Hmph). Anyways here is the excerpt:

“We think everything was done professionally, as it is fixed in the operative instructions. It is really very important that we were a success in the psychological war. There was leakage of information saying that the storm would start at 3:00 a.m. The terrorists pricked up the ears, but no storm followed. Then they started firing. It is quite natural that as a consequence of it, the terrorists relaxed. We started the storm at 5:00 a.m. Sleeping gas was let into the theatre hall through the ventilation, several grenades were fired right in the hall. We managed to liquidate the female kamikaze: soldiers penetrated into the hall through special crawlways and shot the sleeping terrorists point-blank. Right at the temple. I agree that it’s cruel, but when you see a man with two kilograms of plastid strapped to the body, there is no other way to neutralize him

Now that is the way to deal with scum! When you know the terrorists are going to kill people no matter what i guess the only choice is to go ahead!

I am sad that around 90 Russian hostages had to die, but considering the numbers saved (around 750 hostages rescued) i have to say that was much better than every hostage being killed by the Chechnyan terrorists. The FSB controlled spetsgruppa al'fa spetznaz teams did a great job in all respects.

As for the captured terrorists (around 50 were killed in the counter-terrorist strike and the remainder captured) i feel very sorry for them! The Russian Gulag prison system is not very condusive for human beings who want to stay healthy, and thus these kooks will face conditions that are going to make them scream out for Allah! They will probably wish they could be transferred to Gitmo since at least over there liberal politicians in DC would ensure they get better care than many people in 3rd world countries. However these guys will face a 'Russian wlecome' that they will not soon forget.

I read someplace that Russian special operatives used to practive their unarmed combat skills (a mix of what is known as 'systema' that is used for silent unarmed kills, plus combat sambo) on prisoners in the Gulag prisons. After all practicing full speed blows on human subjects is better than hitting a bag and breaking wood (after all Bruce Lee did say 'Boards do not strike back). I wonder if they still practice on prisoners, and if they do i wonder if these Chechnyans will be on the receiving end of some Mad Ivans with a score to settle.

4 posted on 10/26/2002 2:05:53 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
A novel tactic indeed: minimal doses of Novichok-33 binary nerve gas. The toll of deaths among the hostages is now reported by ABC and Reuters as 90 or more, with one account by the Mayor of Moscow listing 130+, and that with 30 or more hostages still in critical condition suffering from the aftereffects of their gassing.

And even at that, the numbers of losses suffered may be as low as could possibly have been managed with 700 lives at stake, and it appears that none of the children hostages or any of the foreigners held by the terrorists were among those killed or hospitalized- including the three Americans.

But it would certainly be much more appropriate to gas the Chechyen terrorists in locations where no innocent bystanders or hostages will be harmed. Unfortunately, it may not be possible for that ideal to be realized, but it would be a nice gesture.

-archy-/-

5 posted on 10/26/2002 2:06:46 PM PDT by archy
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To: Straight Vermonter
I think the West makes a big mistake when they allow ANY information out about counter terror operations. Next time the Chechens or other Islamofascists simply show up with gas masks. Then what do we do?
6 posted on 10/26/2002 2:07:01 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter
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To: spetznaz
Did you catch this article? Woman killed trying to help free hostages

Sounds like something California readers would find thrilling. Kum-bay-yah alert...

Her mother said, "She could not stand when people were mistreated, and this is what I think drove her out of our apartment that night. Olga told me that she wanted to go talk to the terrorists and tell them that holding so many innocent people . . . was a wrong thing."

I'm sorry the little peace-nik got killed, but give me a break!!! Hasn't she learned yet that terrorists aren't interested in peace?

7 posted on 10/26/2002 2:10:32 PM PDT by lsee
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To: Straight Vermonter
I wonder if CNN recognized a border with Chechnya and the Russian province of Gagestan. The Chechen jihad filth do not.
8 posted on 10/26/2002 2:14:48 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
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To: spetznaz
I read someplace that Russian special operatives used to practice their unarmed combat skills (a mix of what is known as 'systema' that is used for silent unarmed kills, plus combat sambo) on prisoners in the Gulag prisons.

That, and the efficient use of their field spades/entrenching shovels, a dandy close-quarters and nearly silent sentry removal tool and crowd-control device, at least equal to the *Alabama lie-detectors* in use by US police riot control forces.


9 posted on 10/26/2002 2:15:35 PM PDT by archy
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To: archy
Novichok - Recently developed choline sterase inhibitor (U.S.S.R.). May affect human genes and thus damage could be genetically transmitted to offspring.

NOWHERE CAN I FIND INFORMATION THAT THIS AGENT CAUSES SLEEPING.

10 posted on 10/26/2002 2:18:02 PM PDT by seeker41
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To: Straight Vermonter
There are reports that in afghanistan Soviet forces used a gaseous agent that dissolved gas masks in tandem with nerve agents.

However i do agree with you that at times information on tactics is released in a rather imprudent manner.

11 posted on 10/26/2002 2:25:59 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: seeker41
It is a nerve agent that when imbued by the human system causes it to simply shutdown. I would say that it probably causes loss of conscious skeletal muscle movement, although reports of people dying from drowning in their own vomit probably indicates some smooth muscle loss of control.

As for it inducing sleep i guess the reason the media said so is because they saw imobile people, hence the conventional thought is 'sleep gas.' A similar example is when someone buys in a public store 'Pepper Spray' and automatically thinks he is buying 'Mace' when in reality there is a big difference between Pepper Spray and Mace. However not as big as the difference between sleeping gas and a nerve agent.

One will knock you to sleep, the other could very well put you to sleep. Subtle but profound.

12 posted on 10/26/2002 2:30:50 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
I wonder if that's the same gas the polyaki use to rob tourists on the Berlin-Petersburg express every now and then.
13 posted on 10/26/2002 2:31:22 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: spetznaz
From Pravda:


14 posted on 10/26/2002 2:35:02 PM PDT by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: struwwelpeter
Lol ....good one. Could be, but i wonder where they might have gotten it. It is as dangerous to the user as to the usee.
15 posted on 10/26/2002 2:35:07 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
Thanks for that information.
16 posted on 10/26/2002 2:35:50 PM PDT by seeker41
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To: seeker41
If it is what was used and is a cholinesterase inhibitor it does not cause sleepiness, but a lack of nerve-to-muscle communication.

They had a lot of better choices, surely, and I cannot imagine they would use this. If they had it seems like a lot more people would be dead. Many many more.

17 posted on 10/26/2002 2:36:30 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
Me neither, too dangerous. I'm looking around for a suitable agent that perhaps was used to cause "sleeping".
18 posted on 10/26/2002 2:38:25 PM PDT by seeker41
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To: seeker41; MarMema
Me neither, too dangerous. I'm looking around for a suitable agent that perhaps was used to cause "sleeping".

I think the reason they opted for this agent is due to the rapid onset of its effects. A more conventional agent, like your run of the mill 'sleep gas' would induce sleep, but the speed of onset would be slow enough to make some terrorists become aware of what was going on and detonate the devices. However the use of a binary nerve gas like sterase inhibitor is something that will conk everyone very fast. Meaning that by the time a terrorist discovers something is amiss he no longer has the ability to channel nerve impulses from his mind to his muscles. He wants to blow up the theater but he is basically petrified.

That is why ...i think ....they used the agent. Using a less potent substance would have led to at least over a dozen of the terrorists to notice there fellow comrades are falling asleep, and they would have rushed to detonate the explosives lining the theater. Carnage would have ensued and scores would have died.

However add a binary agent and suddenly you have everyone in the theater getting turned off like a switch almost simultaneously.

As for the sleeping part i think it was the media seeing limp people scattered around. The most orthodox thought is 'a sleeping gas' when it was probably a nerve agent immobilizing them.

19 posted on 10/26/2002 2:47:29 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Jeff Head; swarthyguy; Poohbah; wardaddy
Ping.
20 posted on 10/26/2002 2:48:56 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: seeker41
Novichok - recently developed choline sterase inhibitor (U.S.S.R.). May affect human genes and thus damage could be transmitted to offspring.

NOWHERE CAN I FIND INFORMATION THAT THIS AGENT CAUSES SLEEPING.

See following account, particularly regarding tests of Novochok-33 in low doses, and various interesting effects, including reported IMPROVED marksmanship ability with small arms, in some instances. But I suspect the *sleeping* it causes is of the permanent variety, as per the effects noted in the photos of the dead terrorists without visible bullet wounds, who had nevertheless evacuated their bowels and bladders [per stained carpets beneath them] upon exposure to the *sleep gas.*

We'll see; look for numbers of the gassed hostages who become casualties soar into the 150+ range over the next week. But I bet the bargaining of supplies of 2-PAM or Atropine for the captured terrorists makes for an interesting bargaining chip during their interrogations, particularly as they watch others so exposed expire.

-archy-/-

21 posted on 10/26/2002 2:50:40 PM PDT by archy
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To: seeker41
Let me know what you find out. I am very interested. Reporting now that about 340 people in the hospital, and some critical. The death toll will probably rise, but overall it was not just the gas.
Lack of food and water for three days was not helpful and many people were going downhill before the gas. Then the gas was the final straw for some perhaps.
22 posted on 10/26/2002 2:50:45 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Straight Vermonter
Bingo!! It's not surprising though. Remember the way the media carried on on 9/11 when Bush left Washington? They wanted to broadcast his itinerary and were ticked when they didn't get it.

There are some things the leftist media does NOT need to know.
23 posted on 10/26/2002 2:51:52 PM PDT by Jaded
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To: Hank Kerchief
a novel ping to you!

Btw there was a chechen on a chechen board who also predicted correctly. She said, the day before it happened -
"It will end this way. British and American special forces will render anyone inside the building unconscious. Then Russian forces will move in and shoot every raider to death.."

24 posted on 10/26/2002 2:53:02 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: archy
Your point about the speed needed is a good one. Cholinesterase inhibitors decrease breathing function and movement of skeletal muscle. They are particularly cruel, however, in that mental awareness is clear and unchanged. They simply don't allow muscles to work. Mental changes are from the lack of oxygen when the chest cannot rise and breathe.

There is a rare deficiency among some people to produce cholinesterase, enough at least, to recover from surgery, in which the inhibitors are used to paralyze the patient. I have seen the terror in the eyes of those who could not move and were fully aware, although breathing was being done for them. Thankfully fresh frozen plasma is a quick solution.

It is my hope that much fresh frozen plasma was on-hand for the hostages, if indeed a cholinesterase inhibitor was used. It could explain the numerous requests for help in the Russian media before the rescue operation - they were gathering and stocking plasma.

25 posted on 10/26/2002 3:02:41 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: spetznaz
There are reports that in afghanistan, Soviet forces used a gaseous agent that dissolved gas masks in tandem with nerve agents.

Yep, *Molniya,* dissolving gas masks and human skin, among other things. But it's not a derivitive of nitrogen mustard, and is odorless and tasteless, as are most nerve agents.

26 posted on 10/26/2002 3:03:45 PM PDT by archy
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To: Straight Vermonter
You aske:Next time the Chechens or other Islamofascists simply show up with gas masks. Then what do we do?

If it was anesthesia, gas masks would do.Nerve gas, however, will go thru clothing and thru skin. They would have to wear MOPP suits or something similar to protect themselves. And then, as the Russians are well aware, all you have to do is add a chemical to make the MOPP suits deteriorate quickly, so that they allow the gas to penetrate protective gear.

MOPP suits were used in the old cold war era, presumably there are new suits to protect our GI's against Sadamm's gases.
http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/HomePage/WhatsNew/MedAspects/contents.html
27 posted on 10/26/2002 3:16:40 PM PDT by LadyDoc
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To: MarMema
They are particularly cruel, however, in that mental awareness is clear and unchallenged.

Well, depends on method of ingestion [skin contact absorption or inhalation/ingestion] and dosage. But see the MSDS *here* for effects from US nerve agent VX: [at addendum *A*]which may have similar results, if differing chemically from Russian chemical agents.

*Exposure to high concentrations of nerve agent may bring on incoordination, mental confusion and collapse so rapidly that the casualty cannot perform self-aid. If this happens, the mabn nearest to him will give first aid.*

Effect of Russian agent, delivered via unknown means, into enclosed area, particularly affecting those near doorways and in open areas [thereby less diluted by being spread among several individuals] might be very different. But note also MSDS comments regarding repeated dosages to those afflicted. Not a problem for recovering hostages...but captured terrorists may have such a problem. And training videos made of such things would be nice morale boosters.

-archy-/-

28 posted on 10/26/2002 3:18:48 PM PDT by archy
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To: MarMema; All
It is my belief that the agent used was 3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate (BZ) (now called QNB) developed during the Cold War.

The chemical warfare agent 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate (QNB, BZ) is an anticholinergic agent that affects both the peripheral and central nervous systems (CNS). It is one of the most potent anticholinergic psychomimetics known, with only small doses necessary to produce incapacitation. It is classified as a hallucinogenic chemical warfare agent. QNB usually is disseminated as an aerosol, and the primary route of absorption is through the respiratory system. Absorption also can occur through the skin or gastrointestinal tract. It is odorless. QNB's pharmacologic activity is similar to other anticholinergic drugs (eg, atropine) but with a much longer duration of action.

29 posted on 10/26/2002 3:22:01 PM PDT by seeker41
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To: MarMema
It is my hope that much fresh frozen plasma was on-hand for the hostages....

Yes. Likewise HI-6 or 2PAM, as used for treatment of those exposed to organophosphorous insecticides in agricultural and industrial accidental overexposures. The U.S. military first-aid response is atropine, usually from spring-loaded hypodermic auto-injectors.

But that's also a good reason for the large numbers of troops in the area, already blood-group typed and ready for donations, should one of the hostages with a less common blood group require serological replenishment. Such treatment usually requires several weeks to several months duration, assuming, as in this case, no further exposure to the agent. ChemWar traetment may have been immediately available for all concerned [would help explain reported hypodermic marks on the dead terrorists] with transport to advanced treatment being carried out immediately upon rescue. Good chance for high numbers of recoveries of those minimally dosed, but also unfortunate liklihood that many of the seriously affected will not pull through.


30 posted on 10/26/2002 3:32:33 PM PDT by archy
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To: Jaded
There are some things the leftist media does NOT need to know.

You wish to go inside and film the action? And interview the *freedom fighters?* Why certainly, Mr/Ms leftist *journalist*- go right on in ahead!

Kerchoo! [Followed by blurred eyes and runny nose...then, other things!]

31 posted on 10/26/2002 3:36:25 PM PDT by archy
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To: Straight Vermonter
They claim it is much like the border between, say, Illionois and Indiana.
32 posted on 10/26/2002 3:43:57 PM PDT by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark
They implied there was a border between Russia and Chechnya. One would not say there was a border between the US and Illinois.
33 posted on 10/26/2002 3:53:14 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter
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To: seeker41
From FReeppost *here*

Vasilyev, the deputy interior minister, said none of the 67 initial victims died from gas poisoning. He said nine died because of heart problems, shock or lack of medicine. At the same time, doctors at City Hospital No. 13, where more than 320 freed hostages were taken, said none of those hospitalized had gunshot wounds, Moscow's TVS television reported.

That sound consistant with BZ/ QNB usage to you? I'm not very familiar with it. If hallucinations were a byproduct result, treatment for seeming psychological symptoms might be ongoing, understandably.

The Spetznaz guys came in and killed the terrorists...great big pink bunnyrabbit Spetznaz razvedki guys with GREAT BIG teeth, and claws....

34 posted on 10/26/2002 3:55:13 PM PDT by archy
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To: archy
You know I'm thinking it may be a modified version of BZ, it caught my interest due to it's incapaciting effect and it is not deadly like some of the other agents. It does cause nausea and reactions similar to what I saw on the photos of the survivors. Inability to walk etc... Guess we'll have to wait for the survivors to tell us of the exact effects.
35 posted on 10/26/2002 4:01:09 PM PDT by seeker41
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To: archy
I'm really impressed that so many of you know so much about these gasses.
36 posted on 10/26/2002 4:02:16 PM PDT by blam
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To: archy; All
Please note the gas mask.


37 posted on 10/26/2002 4:14:29 PM PDT by seeker41
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To: LadyDoc
If it was anesthesia, gas masks would do.Nerve gas, however, will go thru clothing and thru skin.

It was reported that one of the Chechen terrorists WAS wearing a gas mask!

38 posted on 10/26/2002 4:18:20 PM PDT by F-117A
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To: Straight Vermonter
You're right... Quark just likes to cause trouble!
39 posted on 10/26/2002 4:23:48 PM PDT by F-117A
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: spetznaz
How do you say, "Let's roll" in Russian?

D@mn reporters can't bear to admit that regular civilians are capable of defending themselves from evil preditors like these Chechen terrorists. They have to paint them as "panicked" and "desperate."

I say these brave Russian citizens deserve medals. I suspect Russian President Putin and the members of the
Duma will agree.
42 posted on 10/26/2002 5:44:48 PM PDT by anymouse
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To: MarMema
Lack of food and water for three days was not helpful and many people were going downhill before the gas. Then the gas was the final straw for some perhaps.

Lack of food and water may actually have been beneficial. You are less likely to aspirate your stomach contents into your lungs if there's nothing in your stomach. Such is why you don't eat before undergoing general anesthesia.

Interviews with the hostages should shed light on the nature, if not the specific identity, of the gas used. If it was just a paralyzing agent they'll have been conscious and will certainly remember the experience. If it was just a sedative they'll probably not remember anything until waking up. There were too many hostages, including non-Russians, to keep such hostage stories out of the press.

43 posted on 10/26/2002 7:38:49 PM PDT by JohnBovenmyer
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To: JohnBovenmyer
If I were the Ruskie planners, I would pump a large volume of carbon dioxide into the theater and keep the level high, causing drowsiness. Then, I would pump a large volume of ____ ___ into the same air system and storm the place to kill the terrorists and save the hostages whose repiratory system had been severely compromised. There are several gas agents (non-nerve type) that will induce unconsciousness very quickly, especially if there is a high concentration of carbon dioxide in the blood gas mix.
44 posted on 10/26/2002 8:03:21 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: Straight Vermonter
The Chechens had gasmasks the gas worked so fast they had no time to put it on.
46 posted on 10/27/2002 6:22:11 PM PST by Destro
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To: MHGinTN
a large volume of carbon dioxide into the theater and keep the level high, causing drowsiness

high CO2 levels would produce a feeling of suffocation, with attendant panic- when we hold our breath, it's the build up of CO2 in the blood that generates the urge to breathe.

On the other hand, a gas like nitrogen could be used to displace the oxygen in the air, leading to hypoxia and unconciousness without the subject's awareness. The problem there is if the subjects stop breating entirely, you would only have a few minutes before death/brain damage ensued.

47 posted on 10/28/2002 7:19:49 AM PST by fourdeuce82d
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