Posted on 10/26/2002 9:55:06 PM PDT by Pyro7480
I'd like to repeat a quick point I made on the DC Chapter Patriots' Rally On C-Span (11:20 p.m. ET) thread (and I know I'm going to get flamed for this, so the flame-proof suit is ON!). This development (the kill Saddam Iraqis who joined the DC Chapter Patriots Rally this past day), which I was amazed to see, has made me think. I think we should try to keep the Islam/Arab-bashing (the unwarranted kind) to a bare minimum. Many of these Iraqi freedom fighters have now heard about FR and may visit our site. These brave Iraqis show us that there may be hope for Islam. The enemy is ISLAMISM, which is a more recent phenomena, developed by radical Muslims, starting with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. These fanatics are focused on the destruction of ALL non-Muslim influences in the world, not just the West. I have studied the writings of one Islamist, Sayyid Qutb, and the insight that it gave me was amazing. We should dispose of Islamism in the dustbin of history, along with communism and fascism.
Someone on the other thread resonded and said the following:
The members of the religion of Islam are the only people who can separate and deliniate these radicals. They have done a poor job up to today.
They need to get passionate and angry as these folks appear to be.
I said the following "The problem is is that they largely CAN'T. The situation is similar to our situation here in the U.S. Many people are either apathetic or have lives to live (especially in their countries because most have barely enough to eat). Even WORSE, their tyrannical regimes and the thugs that support them will KILL anyone that stands up against them. But we do have people like the brave students in Iran who are speaking out and standing up to the radical mullahs. What we need to do is support movements that will liberate these countries and bring them up to civilization. Before that, we need to wipe out the Islamist movements. Any less than this, and we will be dealing with this problem until kingdom come."
FReeper Stultis also responded and said the following, which is exactly what I was thinking:
"It should be added that many sincere and pious Muslims, whose traditions or convictions are incompatable with the violent, murderous, nihilistic, puritanical, fanatical, utopian and fascistic hyper-particularism of the islamists, are most definitely classified by the fanatics as non-Muslims, and are slated for destruction.
Nor should we forget that some of the most relentless, dedicated and effective (if usually unsung) soilders of the half-century long struggle with the "evil empire" were indigenous victims of or escapes from Communist totalitarianism. There was a very effective government program (name escapes me at the moment) to recruit and employee these brave warriors. I fervently hope that it, or its like, has by now been resurrected."
This is a great dialogue that has started. We should give thanks to the Iraqi group for joining us and expressing their anti-Saddam sentiments. We should give these freedom fighters our support.
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I'm concerned that in too many cases 'apathy' is half-hearted sympathy with the terrorists. I sure hope not. I know plenty of muslims who wouldn't hurt a fly and have nothing but kind, pro-american things to say, but...I think the burden is on american muslims to take the lead in condemning this nonsense. When I see that I will be encouraged indeed. Until then, I still think of the 'religion of peace' in quotes.
I think that is what Pyro is advocating; using terminology and rhetoric that reflects some distinctions, and allows for the recognition and recruitment of the victims and indigenous targets of Islamism (a.k.a. islamofascism, a.k.a. radical islam, a.k.a. Middle Eastern gangsterism and thuggery, a.k.a. etc, etc) who are willing to FIGHT, speak or conspire against it. We should not abandond these people. We should not needlessly turn them away and dispirit them.
I just thought that needed to be repeated.
It is, Muslims have been totally passive in this, and that is as far as I will go in condemning Islam. The fanatics who have been operating under cover of Islam don't represent Islam. Muslims have to speak up, speak out against terrorism, and so far it has been very quiet.
Perhaps the Nation of Islam can show other Muslims the way to go. Farrakhan said today that he is willing to boot the Beltway Sniper from the Nation of Islam because of acting in a manner opposite to the practice of Islam. All the terrorists should be booted from Islam. It's the Christian thing to do.
I look though in many ways at the leadership who does little to no condemning of the scums who claim to be part of their faith. All we see is them coming out and saying not all muslims are bad, time and again. Well duh. What we are not hearing is that those perpetrating the acts are useless and going to hell for their evil deeds (or something similar). It reminds me of the democrats - no matter how bad one of their own do it is not their fault, they are good people, etc and so on.
I believe that in their religion they have branches much like christians/jews/etc do. Some are radicals, some liberal, moderate, and so on. If a group of christians, say Sect X, were doing these things the other branches would be yelling about it, and the press would be showing that were a cult of some kind, etc.
I have been friends with many over the years who were muslims, in both california and ohio. Most think the radicals are simply crazy - but many more want to sympathize with them and not attack or condemn them - there fore we (folks here in general) view them as suspect.
The problem is hatred of america - by muslims, democrats, blacks, and the socialists. And I am seeing few stand by the country when attacked. We hear we deserved it from the left and muslims.
If they want to turn the tide of opinion then they should be leading the effort to do so, not hindering it. If we get some on here who are taken aback of our views I will endeavor to explain why we view it that way, but stressing that we as a whole accept individuals as who they really are.
Christianity has gotten a bad rap on here too, and people who are christians are depicted by some as mindless who want to destroy their rights. I understand their view, fine by me, but I will stick up for myself while listening to an open mind about their concerns. My hope is any muslims, iraqi's, etc who come on here do the same.
Platitudinous and ambiguous general statements against terror just won't cut the mustard anymore.
I hear Muslims say that they love America but I have never heard one extol the virtues of our political and social system in general or the Constitution in particular.
Generally what I have heard from them are either whining complaints of an imaginary anti-Muslim backlash or hectoring lectures about the supposed shortcomings of American foreign policy.
While I am aware that there have been some Muslims here in the U.S. who have proven their loyalty and bona fides as good Americans, for the majority of them the jury is still out, at least in my estimation.
As for Iran, there is nothing that the denizens of Free Republic can do to help or harm their cause except support President Bush in his policy vis a via Iraq.
Once we are established there the whole complexion of the Middle East will change.
Those who wish to criticize Islam, even if in very blunt or controversial fashion, should be free to speak within applicable FR guidelins. Indeed, legitimizing the concept of freedom of thought and speech regarding religion is a key part of our struggle against the absolutists of radical Islam. It must also, however painfully in some cases, be made clear to much of moderate Islam that they must also conform themselves in the West to this principle.
We can, however, legitimately propose and advocate that such religiously or broadly philosophical controversialism regarding Islam be relegated to the Religion section of FreeRepublic and/or The Smokey Backroom.
All three of my friends would back up what I am saying. I know this, because we talk about it often. Islam is not a religion with a commitment to feedom. It is a religion that teaches its spread by military means. The percentage of the Muslims here on student or work visas who have complete sympathy with Al-Queda is much higher than most people realize, it seems to me.
It is not an accident that Latin American culture is based on Catholicism plus local Indian superstitions, North America is based on a peculiar brand of non-Popish Christianity with its cradle in Great Britain, India is based in Hinduism, and the Middle East, Central Asia, and parts of Africa and Southern Asia are based in Islam, etc. Religion is the base of ideas, and ideas are the base of the history of a nation. These things are not random. Islam, in all its forms, is not friendly to the ideals articulated by James Madison. It is based on a completely different worldview. For that matter, Oprah Winfreyism is not compatible with those ideals, either.
As I always say, one of the big causes of 9/11 is the widespread and increasingly unchallenged, irrational idea that no culture is any better than any other culture.
We can admit this, and still condemn persecution of Muslims amongst us. It is not Christian, or American, to act with malice towards American who are Muslims. We don't have to lie to ourselves and to the public at large about the origins and ideals of Islam, and pretend it is something it is not, in order to hold to this precept of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all Americans.
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