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Minister: I suspected Muhammed was a TERRORIST.(read down in article--where'd he get travel bucks?)
UK News of the World ^ | Oct. 27, 02 | UK News of the World

Posted on 10/26/2002 11:53:26 PM PDT by churchillbuff

Claims of warnings about the pair to police BEFORE the killings started were piling up last night.

The Rev Al Archer, who runs the Lighthouse Mission Centre in Bellingham where the pair once lived, said he suspected the Gulf War veteran was a terrorist after September 11.

He said Muhammad distributed pro-Islam brochures, made anti-American slurs and also threatened to kill cops. He added: "If he'd been stopped at that time, a lot of people would be alive who are now dead."

Mr Archer revealed that Muhammad, who was existing on handouts, started travelling extensively by air. Harjeep Singh, who knew the snipers at a YMCA gym, said he was alarmed at their vow to go on a gun-rampage, targetting cops and fuel tankers.

Police and an FBI agent interviewed Mr Singh but no action was taken.

Full article: SNIPER ESCAPE BID FBI agents grab him as he flees

THE 17-year-old Washington sniper made a dramatic freedom bid—by punching his way through the CEILING of an interview room.

John Lee Malvo seized his chance after being left alone by FBI interrogators.

He leapt on a table and quickly smashed the flimsy ceiling tiles with his fists—then began hauling himself up into a ventilation shaft.

Agents dashed into the room, grabbed his flailing legs and wrenched the struggling teenager back down.

Last night the FBI refused to comment on the embarrassing incident at the "secure" and secret federal centre in Baltimore, Maryland.

Malvo and fellow sniper John Muhammad, 41—who face the death penalty in seven different jurisdictions —are refusing to help enquiries into their reign of terror in the US capital.

Posed

One agent said: "Never mind co-operation. They're not even talking."

The pair—who killed ten and wounded three in a 21-day spree— could also be charged with an unsolved murder on America's west coast.

Keenya Cook, 21, was killed in February with a single head shot as she opened her front door in Tacoma, Washington State, where Muhammad and Malvo were living at the time.

The assassins were friends with her family—and even posed for the now infamous picture together on their sofa.

But ex-Army marksman Muhammad, who changed his name from Williams because he converted to Islam, fell out with the Cooks when they befriended his ex-wife.

Claims of warnings about the pair to police BEFORE the killings started were piling up last night.

The Rev Al Archer, who runs the Lighthouse Mission Centre in Bellingham where the pair once lived, said he suspected the Gulf War veteran was a terrorist after September 11.

He said Muhammad distributed pro-Islam brochures, made anti-American slurs and also threatened to kill cops. He added: "If he'd been stopped at that time, a lot of people would be alive who are now dead."

Mr Archer revealed that Muhammad, who was existing on handouts, started travelling extensively by air. Harjeep Singh, who knew the snipers at a YMCA gym, said he was alarmed at their vow to go on a gun-rampage, targetting cops and fuel tankers.

Police and an FBI agent interviewed Mr Singh but no action was taken.

There were also chilling new revelations last night about how Malvo and Muhammad mocked police by repeatedly slipping through dragnets.

Their 1990 blue Chevrolet Caprice— a killing machine with holes in the boot to fire through—was first noted by police on October 3, just 24 hours after the first killing. But it was lost in the system while the entire hunt centred on a white van.

Meanwhile, Muhammad was stopped or spoken to by officers TEN times for various traffic offences.

During a spot-check on October 8, he was parked and asleep at the wheel. But cops failed to look in the boot, where they would have found the Bushmaster XM15 rifle.

The most chilling escape was last Monday when two illegal immigrants in a white van were held in a swoop as they used a phone booth being staked out by cops.

Muhammad and Malvo had given the number of the booth to detectives in a phone call. And just yards away, they were lurking in their blue Chevy, watching every move in the fiasco.

The car was even caught in the background on news footage—and still the jigsaw did not piece together.

Finally, police realised the car they were looking for. But Chief Charles Moose refused to reveal the number plate. It was only when one of his team leaked it that the pair were found one-and-a-half hours later.

© NEWS GROUP NEWSPAPERS LTD, 2001 Terms & Conditions


TOPICS: Breaking News; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: conspiracy; islam; jihadinamerica; pckills; terrorism
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Muhammad was "existing on handouts" --- then suddenly "started travelling extensively by air." Who was footing the bill?
1 posted on 10/26/2002 11:53:26 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
Who was footing the bill?


Other stolen credit cards? Ha!
2 posted on 10/26/2002 11:55:37 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: chnsmok
Last ping of the night. Chilling. PC is going to kill us.
3 posted on 10/26/2002 11:57:47 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma
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To: churchillbuff

4 posted on 10/27/2002 12:00:50 AM PDT by My Favorite Headache
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To: My Favorite Headache
Why close the borders when we are at war?

Sarcasm......

5 posted on 10/27/2002 12:02:31 AM PDT by Joe Hadenuf
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To: churchillbuff
But Chief Charles Moose refused to reveal the number plate. It was only when one of his team leaked it that the pair were found one-and-a-half hours later.

Unfreakin believable. If this is accurate, Moose is an idiot!

6 posted on 10/27/2002 12:08:04 AM PDT by Humidston
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To: churchillbuff
The car was even caught in the background on news footage

I'd sure like to see these pics. If anyone gets them, please post.

7 posted on 10/27/2002 12:15:28 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: churchillbuff
I still want to known why Mohammed suddenly needed a car in NJ around 9/11/2001.
8 posted on 10/27/2002 12:16:37 AM PDT by John Jamieson
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To: churchillbuff; *JIHAD IN AMERICA; Grampa Dave; Clovis_Skeptic; ladyinred; veronica; Travis McGee; ..
Good question!

JIHAD IN AMERICA:

To find all articles tagged or indexed using JIHAD IN AMERICA, click below:
  click here >>> JIHAD IN AMERICA <<< click here  
(To view all FR Bump Lists, click here)



9 posted on 10/27/2002 12:21:09 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Humidston
It doesn't matter. America has a hero.
10 posted on 10/27/2002 12:24:40 AM PDT by chnsmok
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Looks like we have pockets of terrorist's and terorrist enablers. It's going to come down to local police and how sold out they are to the leftists. They are all over the frigging place too.
11 posted on 10/27/2002 12:41:47 AM PDT by John Lenin
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To: churchillbuff
Muslim sympathisers in the US. NOI or Saudi funded jihadi scumbags... Or theft...
12 posted on 10/27/2002 12:49:24 AM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: Humidston
But Chief Charles Moose refused to reveal the number plate. It was only when one of his team leaked it that the pair were found one-and-a-half hours later. <<<<<<< Unfreakin believable. If this is accurate, Moose is an idiot!

Around midnight, Moose announced a Federal Arrest Warrant with no picture (even to hold up, he said we could download it from the FBI site) No New Jersey Plate number, no description of the car. If sources on his team had not leaked it, and if CNN had not announced it starting at 10 pm and Fox about an hour later, the Trucker would not have spotted them at 1 am as they did, in spite of Moose!

13 posted on 10/27/2002 1:11:24 AM PDT by OReilly
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To: churchillbuff
But what's this crap about Homeland Defense, it seems to be only a case of "HOME-BOY Defense" "Chief Bullwinkle refused to reveal the number plate. It was only when one of his team (Rocky) leaked it that the pair were found.......one-and-a-half hours (90 MINUTES) later." //ppppparaphrased//

Why did the Alabama cops not plug this guy at the Liquor Store murder, would that have stopped the murder of 10 more AMERICANS?

14 posted on 10/27/2002 2:06:16 AM PST by iopscusa
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To: Salvation
More than likely, that is the case...coupled with other robbery efforts.
15 posted on 10/27/2002 3:36:18 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: churchillbuff
bttt
16 posted on 10/27/2002 5:47:21 AM PST by piasa
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To: churchillbuff
Anyone know if the cops found the laptop that Muhammad was seen with?
17 posted on 10/27/2002 5:49:09 AM PST by mewzilla
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To: Humidston
PC Moose is not an idiot. He is a very smart black racist who uses Political Correctness to harass whites and to allow black criminals like these two to skate free.

Yesterday I posted an excerpt from the Post which addressed this problem of PC Moose. There are over 160 replies on this thread. It is amazing how many pseudo conservatives still are defending the black racist, PC Moose. (Police spotted suspects' car 10 times during sniper spree (PC killed more innocents!)

18 posted on 10/27/2002 6:03:18 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: Humidston
It's an old COP (citizen on Patrol) trick.

If the good chief had let out the license plate at the news conference - then an AV rated Islamonazi defense lawyer would have used the rules of evidence in a court proceeding to get Islamonazi Snipers out of jail. With the information being leaked, the rules of evidence are not an issue in a court of law - and the chief can say, "release was not authorized".

I know one thing.

I wouldn't have wanted to be in his shoes. I think he did an outstanding job. btw - the tarrot card was released by the same method, to give the chief an opportunity to bang on his chest to the press. He's no fool.

19 posted on 10/27/2002 7:01:21 AM PST by PokeyJoe
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To: Grampa Dave
Wasn't the FBI supposed to be in charge pretty much from the start? If they took orders from Moose, they certainly weren't doing their jobs. I think the FBI is completely to blame, and if they were doing their jobs these Muslim groups and immigrant smugglers would have been closely watched since Sept 11, 2001.
20 posted on 10/27/2002 7:32:25 AM PST by FITZ
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To: FITZ
The FBI was not that involved at first.

Don't let your hatred of the FBI blind you to the actions of the black racist, PC Moose.
21 posted on 10/27/2002 7:34:33 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: Grampa Dave
The FBI had warnings about the sniper when he stayed in some homeless shelter and had airlines calling him. They ignored that tip.
22 posted on 10/27/2002 7:57:36 AM PST by FITZ
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To: Grampa Dave
Also there seems to be quite a bit of immigrant smuggling going on that's been ignored by the FBI even since Sept 11, 2001. I don't see any excuses for immigrants being smuggled into this country and Mohammed seems quite in the middle of all that. Moose didn't have any of the information the FBI had access to.
23 posted on 10/27/2002 7:59:21 AM PST by FITZ
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To: FITZ
The Former Bureau of Investigation gets no approval from me.

However, not focusing on the actions of PC Moose and just blaming the FBI is how these PCers stay in power.
24 posted on 10/27/2002 8:00:46 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: Humidston
Unfreakin believable. If this is accurate, Moose is an idiot!

The local cops did their job well, noticing and recording the activity of this car. The screwup is at the feet of the FBI profilers. Someone at a very high level made a deliberate decision to ignore eyewitness accounts of "hispanic" or "olive-skinned" perps. These descriptions are not bad, in my opinion, considering no one got a really close look.

25 posted on 10/27/2002 8:15:10 AM PST by js1138
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To: Grampa Dave
The FBI was in charge of the investigation. The local cops did their job.
26 posted on 10/27/2002 8:16:33 AM PST by js1138
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To: Route66; Peach; Bella; Pete; areafiftyone; brigette; harpseal; Merovingian; Miss Marple; ...
Ping
27 posted on 10/27/2002 8:18:12 AM PST by Freedom2specul8
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To: churchillbuff
Muhammad was "existing on handouts" --- then suddenly "started travelling extensively by air." Who was footing the bill?

I've been asking the same question. They were getting money from somewhere with no employment or business connections, legal or illegal. A Chevy Caprice is a thirsty beast, and it was getting driven a lot. The whole thing, with the shooting gallery in the car trunk, was too clever by half.

I don't think this story ends with the two dufuses. And it could well lead back to AQ, even with these clowns being nutcases - thinking "outside the trunk", since so many seem to think they have to be either nuts or under strict AQ discipline, but nothing in between.

One way to make war against a nation is to quietly encourage and fund nutcases to do just this kind of thing, maybe bamboozle things a bit so they don't even know who they're doing it for. And if they get caught, so what.

Economy-of-force terror.

28 posted on 10/27/2002 8:26:04 AM PST by pttttt
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To: js1138
You need a little history on PC Moose. If you are interested I can post something from the White House of Clintoon how and why he got his job.

The FBI got involved but not before the first critical day or so when the data on the killers got lost.

The FBI after 8 years of Jake Reno/Clinton became the Former Bureau of Investigation. The DC FBI's if they were hired or promoted from 92-2000 are probably terrible agents and nothing but PC/Diversity queens.

However, to blame the FBI for the track record of the black racist Moose is developing a serious blind spot or an attempt to divert attention from his responsiblity in this fiasco.
29 posted on 10/27/2002 8:26:30 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: churchillbuff
This is also from the same page (maybe a later development):

POLICE SEIZE THIRD MAN

A THIRD man who bought the Chevy killing machine with sniper John Muhammad was arrested yesterday.

Nathanial Osbourne, 26, was at the car lot in Trenton, New Jersey, and his name was entered on the log book as co-owner. The ex-undercover police car was registered to an address where the Jamaican immigrant occasionally lives. The FBI put him on their "most-wanted" website. An investigation source said: "The FBI don't go to such lengths just to talk to someone. This guy could be well implicated."

30 posted on 10/27/2002 8:29:26 AM PST by pttttt
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To: Humidston
Moose may be an idiot.....
But, we know for sure that the INS is an enormously bloated bureaucracy FULL of IDIOTS! That piece of crap needs to be completely dismantled and rebuilt from scratch. Hell, they're probably STILL issuing visas to Saudis who want to go to flight school here!!! (Take-offs, only please.....)
31 posted on 10/27/2002 8:37:37 AM PST by TheGrimReaper
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: PokeyJoe
Makes sense to me!

Still Chief Moose came out of Portland which is steeped in Political Correct Think. and is in Maryland another land of PC!

So maybe he didn't intend for the leak to happen!

33 posted on 10/27/2002 9:37:02 AM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: churchillbuff
US Law Enforcement antiterrror squads and the police have all been asleep at the switch.

The pervasive influence of saudi money and a pc mentality means that a lot of the deaths could have been avoided.

As it is, it took a leaked license plate and an alert trucker to nail these guys.

If this whole episode doesn't make you lose confidence in the whole LE mess.....
34 posted on 10/27/2002 9:52:18 AM PST by swarthyguy
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To: Grampa Dave
" If you are interested I can post something from the White House of Clintoon how and why he got his job."

We're waiting...........

35 posted on 10/27/2002 9:52:45 AM PST by jmax
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To: jmax
Adversity.Net

http://www.adversity.net/MontgomeryCountyPolice/racial_profiling.htm

Law Enforcement News

http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/len/1999/06.15/p&p.html

White House Press Releases, etc...

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/archives/whitehouse-papers/1994/Jul/1994-07-28-President-and-Other-Speakers-at-Crime-Bill-Event
36 posted on 10/27/2002 10:49:15 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks
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To: churchillbuff
I think we all have a pretty good idea who was footing the bill.
37 posted on 10/27/2002 10:52:29 AM PST by ladyinred
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To: Grampa Dave
I will neither defend nor condemn Moose for a few weeks. I feel certain that the feds are responsible for the profile that prevented street cops from knowing the perps fit eyewitness descriptions.

there was no need for Moose to release any info to the public. The perps were suspicious to get their tags traced ten times during the course of the shootings. All it would have taken was someone to put their description into the national crime database. If the person responsible turnes out to be Moose himself, then I'll agree with you. But all the "former FBI" types on TV were wrong, so I assume the feds were the ones in charge of profiling.

38 posted on 10/27/2002 12:12:43 PM PST by js1138
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To: ladyinred
bump
39 posted on 10/27/2002 12:14:10 PM PST by timestax
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To: PokeyJoe
btw - the tarot card was released by the same method, to give the chief an opportunity to bang on his chest to the press. He's no fool.

That was no act... or he should get an Academy Award. HE said as much as, the Portland Police was racist and he fixed it. He was hired in MC because the NAACP alleged that the Police were racist. Millions were spent and the verdict was... the NAACP allegation was false on it's face, and maybe intentionally.

40 posted on 10/27/2002 12:19:01 PM PST by OReilly
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To: mewzilla
Anyone know if the cops found the laptop that Muhammad was seen with?

Do you remember where you heard/read that?

41 posted on 10/27/2002 12:21:38 PM PST by browardchad
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To: churchillbuff
...last Monday when two illegal immigrants in a white van were held in a swoop as they used a phone booth being staked out by cops.

Muhammad and Malvo had given the number of the booth to detectives in a phone call. And just yards away, they were lurking in their blue Chevy, watching every move in the fiasco.

The car was even caught in the background on news footage...

So lets summarize...


42 posted on 10/27/2002 12:36:09 PM PST by Future Useless Eater
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To: churchillbuff
Oh-oh !

Moose didn't want to release the plate number or correct vehicle description.

I wonder how many OTHER people didn't want these rascals found......

43 posted on 10/27/2002 1:12:17 PM PST by genefromjersey
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To: js1138; Grampa Dave
All it would have taken was someone to put their description into the national crime database.

I think you've narrowed in on the crux of the problem. the "national crime database," if there is one, is not working. Information is not shared -- from one jurisdiction to another, from the federal to the local level, and in this case, as even the PC Washington Post reported, it was not even filtered down from the task force to the LEO's on the street in Maryland.

Take just one part of this mess: the murder in Alabama. A local cop got a good look at Muhammad, and Malvo's fingerprint was left on the scene. Now, Alabama LE is decidedly not PC, and wanted this perp badly. Muhammad's photo had to be on file in at least two jurisdictions, since he was arrested in Miami by the INS for possessing false ID and skipped on a court appearance in Tacoma for shoplifting. In addition, neighbors in the California town where he lived when stationed at Fort Ord report that they were questioned about him by the FBI in 1992, and two people in Bellingham reported him to the FBI, in 2001, and as late as July, 2002. The booking picture currently being used on TV is from one of those incidents. Malvo's fingerprints were on file with the INS in Spokane, where he was imprisoned for immigration violations.

These are incidents that have been reported in the last few days from various locations; given Muhammad's background, I would suspect there are many more brushes with the law that may never get reported.

So, given these facts, how did Alabama LE catch up with Muhammad and Malvo? Because Malvo, in a note left at the Ponderosa, and a phone call to a local priest, bragged about the shooting in Alabama.

IMO, this case is the textbook example of what's wrong with our LE and INS system -- the system that terrorists, criminals and illegal aliens have exploited, not because they possess overwhelming intelligence (in fact, many of them are dumb as dirt), but because the system literally invites them to exploit it -- with PC, culturally and racially-sensitive attitudes that have permeated LE from the federal level to the cop on the street.

We keep hearing about the "tremendous resources" the FBI and ATF brought to this case, and we have not one iota of proof of that, unless you want to include the automotive profilers who did such a fine job in identifying the sniper's vehicle, and the probable race of the perps.

We heard the "Rapid Start" tip system authoritatively described on TV by "experts" as a "computerized" method of sorting tips and matching similarities. The Washington Post reported on 10/23, that "Rapid Start" was nothing more than multi-carbon, handwritten forms, often handed out in duplicate, with two or more LEO's wasting their time chasing the same tip at the same time. According to the story, "The system handling the huge volume of leads, dubbed "Rapid Start" in the days after Sept. 11, is anything but that, say some police and FBI sources who have called it "Rapid Stop."

We've heard about the FBI's "terrorist database" -- it's apparently so efficient that at least two cities -- Houston and Boston -- compiled their own databases in frustration with being unable to link to the FBI system.

Mueller moaned to Congress early this year that the database doesn't have a "sounds-like" or alternate spelling feature, so if names (many times Arab names, which are spelled every which-way all over the globe) are not put in with the exact spelling, a match won't be returned. That feature hasn't been fixed.

Does the FBI's apparent computer illiteracy stem from lack of sophistication/funding, or the convenience of using lack of technology to mask their unwillingness to share information with local LE? Since the problem has existed for years, despite millions of dollars allocated for technology upgrades, I think we all know the answer.

44 posted on 10/27/2002 1:32:24 PM PST by browardchad
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To: browardchad
Fingerprints:

Malvo's prints are on a magazine cartridge in Alabama. I believe his prints are also with the INS as well as Muhammed's.

Apparently there is no loop for matching so what's the point.

Again and again, INS is the weakness AND the uncooperative member of the team.

Every immigrant and/or visitor should be fingerprinted. Hearings should be immediate as well as a trip to the docks.

The Computer: One female officer said they had a computer and she could see the blue screen glowing. She didn't think that was unusual??? They hardly looked like businessmen. "No gut instincts"?? She's in the wrong profession.

Moose: Was sworn in on Aug. 2, 1999 at the University of Maryland, Shady Grove Center in Rockville.

He was pinned by Robert Lamb, Jr. of Seattle, Washington.

Earlier in 1999, in Oregon, Moose brought about a resolution against racial profiling. The DOJ officials said it was the first in the nation.

At one point in time during this, Moose said something about suggesting a particular group. I believe he had this in his head and failed to alert "everyone" to his "gut feeling".

We're all glad this is over. We need to learn from our mistakes.

The INS needs a total revamping. They are supposed to be on our side but they keep shooting us in the foot.

I do not think think the $10 mil was part of the original plan and we've lost sight of the possibility of what it really was. BUSHmaster says it all.

45 posted on 10/27/2002 2:20:57 PM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: Sacajaweau
Again and again, INS is the weakness AND the uncooperative member of the team.

I'd amend that to "the most uncooperative member of the team."

I also don't disagree about Moose's attitude -- combined with the equally PC attitude of the FBI, (who, according to reports I've read, did not want to be lead agency) and backed by liberal Maryland politicians, the results were a disaster.

As far as "learning from mistakes," the moment this ended, we immediately began to see denial of mistakes with the full cooperation of the liberal media, who would rather seize the moment to foster gun control and raise the dumbed-down public's "cultural consciousness," than correct the faults which led not only to this slaughter, but to 9/11 and the long laundry list of deaths, both here and abroad, before that.

46 posted on 10/27/2002 2:48:14 PM PST by browardchad
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To: churchillbuff
I don't know but I hope they check out various murders, particularly that one in New Orleans recently (he had some ties to New Orleans - born there I think), having to do with ATM machines. Recently someone was murdered in New Orleans. Should check out other parts of the country. You know he probably didn't come by that travel money honestly.
47 posted on 10/27/2002 2:52:59 PM PST by Aliska
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To: Sacajaweau
At one point in time during this, Moose said something about suggesting a particular group. I believe he had this in his head and failed to alert "everyone" to his "gut feeling".

I remember him saying he would share a profile (or partial) by close of business on that day. After interminal delays, and introduction of geographic, personal, and vehicle composites, Moose said the best minds in law enforcement agreed with him, that releasing a partial profile would paint a group, or cause some minorities to be misidentified... and hence they would not be releasing a partial profile. And he didn't, right up to the end!

48 posted on 10/27/2002 2:54:02 PM PST by OReilly
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To: churchillbuff
I've been thinking that foreign terrorists could do this type of operation better. No finger prints on file and no playing footsie with the police. Sure hope they come up with more effective ways to move in quickly in incidents like this. Someone switching vehicles, etc., would have been a lot harder to catch.

In the end, this pair really gave themselves away; others might be a little smarter.

My only other observation is their getting noticed eight times. A probabilities program would have flagged their vehicle and license, if such exists.

49 posted on 10/27/2002 2:57:37 PM PST by Aliska
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To: Aliska
I've been thinking that foreign terrorists could do this type of operation better.

Like a tutorial for other terrorists? (or were these guys nothing but 'mine canneries' for the people who funded them and paid for their plane tickets?

50 posted on 10/27/2002 3:02:39 PM PST by OReilly
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