Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

'Marksman' Or 'Expert' Rating No Big Deal In Army, Soldiers Point Out
Tacoma News Tribune | October 25, 2002 | Michael Gilbert and Eijiro Kawada

Posted on 10/28/2002 12:38:49 PM PST by Stand Watch Listen

Qualifying as an "expert marksman" is no extraordinary achievement for soldiers in the Army.

In basic training and usually once a year, soldiers have to qualify with their service weapon. To earn their "expert" badge, they've got to hit 36 out of 40 targets from distances of 50 to 300 meters, officials said.

Soldiers and former soldiers said it's not a particularly tough test. And they said it shouldn't be read as any indication that D.C. sniper suspect John Muhammad achieved any unusual level of proficiency during his time in the Army.

"This expert badge this guy got is completely meaningless," said Gene Econ, a retired infantry major who trains soldiers in marksmanship. "The public needs to know that in the Army, that's pretty much meaningless."

Shooting a rifle, using camouflage and concealment are among the fundamental skills that all soldiers learn in their nine weeks of basic training, soldiers, veterans and Army officials said.

"You shoot from different positions at different targets," Spc. Vicente Hidalgo said Thursday after a haircut at Bell's Barber Shop II in Tillicum. "You learn aiming, breathing and holding the weapon steady."

He said 95 percent of soldiers pass the basic rifle marksmanship course. Others said about one in five qualify as expert.

"They train you on that a lot," said Hidalgo, who works in the pharmacy at Madigan Army Medical Center. "There are a few people who are too nervous to do it."

After the course, he said, anybody would be able to shoot a target 100 yards away - the range from which the D.C. sniper is reported to have shot his victims.

Don Kell, 63, an Army and Vietnam veteran from Tillicum, agreed, saying he can hit "a nickel or even a dime from 100 yards away."

While in the Army, Kell said, he qualified with several firearms including M-1 and M-16 rifles.

The Pentagon said Muhammad, a combat engineer, qualified expert on the M-16 and with hand grenades. He was last stationed at Fort Lewis in 1994.

Qualifying as an expert marksman and becoming a sniper are "apples and oranges," said Lt. Col. Stephen Barger, the Fort Lewis spokesman.

Sniper training involves a lot more than shooting, officials said. Candidates are put through a five-week course, screened for psychiatric and emotional problems, and must have advanced infantry skills.

Soldiers with disciplinary problems are kicked out of the program, officials said.

Muhammad did not receive sniper training in the Army, the Pentagon said in a news release.

"This guy's ability to point a rifle barrel, hit a 20-inch-by-30-inch target from 100 yards, firing with the barrel stabilized with a tripod ... there's no marksmanship ability involved in that at all," said Econ, who helps train snipers at Fort Lewis. "There is a sick, demented, murdering brain that will never be cured."



TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-54 next last

1 posted on 10/28/2002 12:38:49 PM PST by Stand Watch Listen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
Does anyone know what Moose was referring to by saying "The Duck is in the Noose"?
2 posted on 10/28/2002 12:41:31 PM PST by Bugbear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: Stand Watch Listen
Considering that during a 26 year career I fired for record on 25 meter range at scaled targets in good to excellent conditions from a foxhole supported position its a crock.

The pressure on units to "keep the numbers up" is tremendous. That leads to the use of a .223/5.56 MM pencil all too often.
4 posted on 10/28/2002 12:51:15 PM PST by FRMAG
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
Others said about one in five qualify as expert.

That's about right. The news that qualifying "expert" is somehow a gimme would come as a surprise to a great many soldiers seeking additional promotion points, or the Expert Infantry Badge. 36 of 40 is tough, and usually requires many trips to the range and several hundred rounds.

The DC shooter wasn't a "sniper" - but he was a competent marskman. Every "expert" that climbs on the "my grandma can shoot better" bandwagon is doing a disservice to the training profession.

If it's that easy, we certainly don't need "experts" to train our soldiers or police, they can get all the training they need from reading Soldier Of Fortune.

This article is cr*p.

5 posted on 10/28/2002 12:55:46 PM PST by xsrdx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
That article is partly crap and partly true.

I spent 9 years in the army. I always fired expert. In fact in Basic Training I fired a perfect 40. And I'm mighty proud of it, too. In order to do that I had to hit about 4 (if I remember right) targets that were 300 meters distant.

The part that is true about the article is that the expert badge is meaningless. I know for a fact that there was quite a bit of cheating at the range. Since range scores translate directly to promotion points, a good score is important. And since scoring is done by your buddy, a good score is easily achievable.

But to make a blanket statement that the expert badge is meaningless, bothers me to a certain extent. Many of the expert badges out there are meaningless because they're not genuine. My badge is genuine and therefor I take exception to the comment.

How many are phony? I don't know, but I bet it's a high percentage.

I have a nephew in the army now, he says that some of the ranges have electronic scoring.

6 posted on 10/28/2002 1:00:47 PM PST by sparkomatic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FRMAG
25m alternate qualification requires 38 hits in 40 attempts. Alternate qualification is (supposed to be) utilized only when appropriate 300yd range facilities aren't available. Ft. Lewis soldiers train to the 300m standard.
7 posted on 10/28/2002 1:06:44 PM PST by xsrdx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic
I have a nephew in the army now, he says that some of the ranges have electronic scoring.

I was wondering what you mean by your buddy scores for you. The only time I saw manual scoring was when zeroing ranges were used to qualify.

8 posted on 10/28/2002 1:09:18 PM PST by briant
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic; *bang_list
he says that some of the ranges have electronic scoring.

Active installation qualification ranges should all be automated ERETS (Enhanced Remote Electronic Target System) ranges that count hits/misses automatically, via computerized sensors.

Your score cannot be "doctored" without WILDLY obvious tampering.

9 posted on 10/28/2002 1:10:18 PM PST by xsrdx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
Oh and hitting a nickel or dime at 100 yards is crap, too. The M-16 is not a less than 1 moa rifle. In fact, almost no rifle is a less than 1 moa rifle. I think the M-16 is probably closer to a 2 moa rifle. If a guy shoots a 3 round group there's a pretty good chance the guy can hit the nickel or dime. But he's not going to hit it every time. The rifle just simply isn't that good.
10 posted on 10/28/2002 1:11:59 PM PST by sparkomatic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: briant
I spent almost all of my time at Fort Bragg, NC through the 80's. The qualification ranges were set up so that two shooters go to a lane. I think the ranges had about 40 lanes or something like that. Anyhow, one guy does all the shooting and the scorer (the other guy) records the hits/misses with a pencil. Hence the .223/5.56mm pencil comment the other poster made on this thread. When that shooter has fired all 40 rounds then you switch and the other guy shoots while you score.
11 posted on 10/28/2002 1:16:15 PM PST by sparkomatic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic
I understand what your saying, but, as a fellow soldier (ARNG), I have also shot the gamut from Marksman to Expert.

While, I'll agree that shooting expert (which I've not done all that often) is, by no means, "Not a big deal", it does not indicate mastery of the weapon, techniques, concealment, and mindset to the degree that would equate an "Expert" shooter to a sniper.

12 posted on 10/28/2002 1:24:44 PM PST by freedombird
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Bugbear
This post explains the story behind that:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/775215/posts
13 posted on 10/28/2002 1:29:24 PM PST by Peace4EarthNow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Bugbear
The duck in the noose was the sniper's phrase. It refers a folk tale in which the duck flys off with its captor and drops it from the air. I'm still waiting...
14 posted on 10/28/2002 1:31:09 PM PST by js1138
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
The media, being gun stupid, spreads the stupidity around.

Here's for mandatory firearms training in ALL schools.

It's more important than knowing how to roll a condom on a bannana.

15 posted on 10/28/2002 1:37:19 PM PST by Thumper1960
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
a friend of mine who's marine infantry was laughing about the army's "expert" rating for shooting at 300 meters---the marines have to hit the mark from 500 meters. time for the army to raise it's standards imho...
16 posted on 10/28/2002 1:37:40 PM PST by abraxas_sandiego
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xsrdx
>>36 of 40 is tough, and usually requires many trips to the range and several hundred rounds.

You obviously don't go to the range with the kind of people I do. That bunch will go through a few thousand on a good *day* at the range (single trip).

A thousand rounds of milsurp .223 is only a couple hundred bucks. That's very little for the gov't to spend, and a few range trips are an awfully small price to pay in time, for someone who makes their living as a soldier.

For professional soldiers in combat arms MOS's, the level of shooting ability to obtain an expert badge should be damn near a requirement. Or at least for anyone close to infantry.

17 posted on 10/28/2002 1:39:14 PM PST by FreedomPoster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic
I was trained as a unit armorer while with 1Bn 52nd Inf. Learned there that it is acceptable for a M16 to be as much as a 5 MOA after 2000 rds. Considering the weapon actually rattles when shacken, I would say that your assessment of 2 MOA is kind.

My turn to brag:

My Remmington 700 VS (Varmit Synthetic - closest thing to the M24 on the civilan market) came with 1/2 MOA out of the box and I have since tuned it to 1/10 MOA from bench. I have to shoot at 200 yards to be able to make an accurate measure of the MOA.

The down side is that it leaves me no excuse when I miss 'cause the rifle is far more accurate than I'll ever be.

For those that think my claims to be unrealistic, or those that wish to "tune" their rifle, I highly recommend the following product:

http://rifle-accuracy.com/

While I was not able to acheive the .08 MOA in the product advertisements, It did greatly improved the accuracy of my gun. I had it installed in the above mentioned Rem 700 in .308 and it is now a true tack driver.
18 posted on 10/28/2002 1:39:23 PM PST by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic
,i>...Anyhow, one guy does all the shooting and the scorer (the other guy) records the hits/misses with a pencil...

I only saw the pop-up ranges that were scored electroically (except when 25m zeroing ranges were used. Anyway, people could still cheat by saving some of their practice rounds and adding them to your 30 round magazine that should have had 20 rounds in it. (They usually gave you a pratice session in prone and foxhole positions.)

19 posted on 10/28/2002 1:40:55 PM PST by briant
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic
...Anyhow, one guy does all the shooting and the scorer (the other guy) records the hits/misses with a pencil...

I only saw the pop-up ranges that were scored electroically (except when 25m zeroing ranges were used. Anyway, people could still cheat by saving some of their practice rounds and adding them to your 30 round magazine that should have had 20 rounds in it. (They usually gave you a pratice session in prone and foxhole positions.)

20 posted on 10/28/2002 1:41:59 PM PST by briant
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: abraxas_sandiego
When did my USMC change from yards to meters ??
Did they move the targets back to the correct metered measurement?
Or am I just so old I can't remember correctly?
21 posted on 10/28/2002 1:51:31 PM PST by JoeSixPack1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: taxcontrol
5 MOA? Holy Cow. It's a wonder that someone with that weapon could even qualify. That equates to more than 15 MOA at 300meters.
How, when and where does the army do this? I wasn't even aware that they checked the rifles this closely.

If you can really shoot .10 MOA my question is why? Are you trying to make eyeball shots on prairie dogs at 1000 yards?

22 posted on 10/28/2002 1:52:24 PM PST by sparkomatic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: xsrdx
The last time I qualified, in the spring of 1991, I hit 40 for 40 at Fort Benning. 20 were from the foxhole supported and 20 from the prone position, UNsupported. Meaning you had to balance on your elbows as your bipod. That includes four or five targets at 300 meters. Some ranges have clearly visiable targets and others have targets that are blended into the background somewhat. That day, my 300 targets were blended in. I could see the berm behind where the target was suppose to be, but mostly it was a black spot in the middle of the berm. I fired at the black spot and hit them all. The clouds coming and going caused shadows also. Wind, your breathing, your positioning, all fall into it. But, I never qualified less than expert on any range I ever fired the M16 or M14 on. Does that make me Sergeant York? Probably not, but I can still hit what I shoot at. So, whether his Army training made this guy an "expert" or not may or may not matter. It is the duty of every soldier to shoot expert. You want to do your best. Plus, on most promotion score sheets, you get more promotion points for your level of rifle marksmanship. So, why not get all the points you can when going up for E5 or E6? Plus, I just love to shoot. Period.

In fact, the very range down in Tacoma, Bullseye, which the feds are all over right now about the same of the AR15, is where my wife and I go to shoot our pistols right now. They have a very good indoor range.

23 posted on 10/28/2002 1:52:30 PM PST by RetiredArmy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
There's very little marksmanship ability needed to hit a stationary man-size target at 150 yds. or less - which is what these guys did. And they missed totally at least once - hardly the stuff of "snipers."

My shooting buddy's 16-year-old daughter is a much-better shot at that range - with iron sights - than Muhammad and Malvo were with a scope.

Scandals of antigun politicians - with how-to guide to "outing!

24 posted on 10/28/2002 1:53:09 PM PST by glc1173@aol.com
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic
I found the 5 MOA reference in the supply regs. It had to deal with when it was acceptable to send an M16 back to depot for refub / disposal. If the M16 shot WORSE than 5 MOA, that was reason to send it back - otherwise tough. Lack of accuracy was not a good enough reason.

As for my gun, well I had delusions of being good enough to compete at Camp Perry.
25 posted on 10/28/2002 1:59:13 PM PST by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Hobey Baker
I had a good day on the range and got an expert's rating, but I'm only a fair shot.

That's me, too. If you'll pardon the pun, I tend to be a little hit or miss in my shooting :o)

What I mean by that is that on my up days, I can put 10 for 10 into the X ring at 500 meters. On my down days, I count myself fortunate to hit somewhere in the same time zone.

26 posted on 10/28/2002 1:59:30 PM PST by Poohbah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: taxcontrol
I was trained as a unit armorer while with 1Bn 52nd Inf. Learned there that it is acceptable for a M16 to be as much as a 5 MOA after 2000 rds. Considering the weapon actually rattles when shacken, I would say that your assessment of 2 MOA is kind.

A new, just-out-of-the-box M16A2 will turn in 1 MOA (5-inch groups at 500 yards).

I don't think the USMC accepts 5 MOA, because that translates into a 25 inch CEP at 500 yards, and the (expletive deleted) black on the Modified Baker target is only about 18 inches wide.

27 posted on 10/28/2002 2:06:21 PM PST by Poohbah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
After Basic Training, I was sent to Army Electronics School and then went into radar repair, so I was never sent to the firing range a second time. But I collected an expert badge from my one visit to the range in Basic Training at Fort Dix. I think I did better than some of my barracks-mates, but I don't consider myself an expert shot. And my vision isn't great, either.

20% may be a minority, but it's a fairly large minority. All it takes to qualify as expert is the will power to relax, hold your breath, not to flinch, and to give the trigger a steady squeeze.
28 posted on 10/28/2002 2:08:24 PM PST by Cicero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic
I spent 9 years in the army. I always fired expert. In fact in Basic Training I fired a perfect 40. And I'm mighty proud of it, too. In order to do that I had to hit about 4 (if I remember right) targets that were 300 meters distant.

When did the 40 come along? In 1971 we had to shoot at a hundred and I hit 99.

29 posted on 10/28/2002 2:12:18 PM PST by HoustonCurmudgeon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
A new, just-out-of-the-box M16A2 will turn in 1 MOA (5-inch groups at 500 yards). Well that is a good sign. We still had the old M16A1 (still had the triangular forestock) and had not yet received the new A2s. It was mid 80's and the M16A1s were getting rather worn. I'd like to think that the A2's were made better - hopefully they didn't rattle as much.
30 posted on 10/28/2002 2:17:36 PM PST by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: taxcontrol
They didn't rattle much. Unfortunately, the takedown pins were put in so tightly that you needed a punch and a big mallet to field-strip them for the first six months...
31 posted on 10/28/2002 2:19:50 PM PST by Poohbah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
"one in five qualify as expert"

I qualified as an expert, as would be expected from my earlier scoring. I think any young man who had been a competent hunter before basic could be expected to qualify as an expert.

32 posted on 10/28/2002 2:23:05 PM PST by mrsmith
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sparkomatic
I don't know about every post but I think most use the electronic scoring now. The exception being with the 25m alternate target but when we used those we had to print and sign our names on them and turn them into the training room afterwards (for verification).

There are still ways to cheat- alibi firing. If a range NCOIC allows shooters to shoot "alibi targets" (targets they might have missed due to weapons malfunction) a soldier can basically not shoot at any of the 250 or 300 meter targets and use those rounds on the alibi target which is not more than 150 meters away. It's frowned upon of course- but Joe will figure out a way to cheat if it's possible.

The surest method I saw to "pad" your chances without actually cheating was to not shoot the 300 meter target. There are four in the cycle. You save four rounds that way that you can shoot at targets of lesser range and as long as you hit them all you'll still score expert with 36 targets hit. You're not going to shoot perfect that way but if you're not a great shot, it can help out with the other targets- the worst you'll wind up is sharpshooter using that method.

I think the Army marksmanship is and isn't a good test. On the one hand, they're not judging you for accuracy- you barely nick the target and it'll go down as surely as if you hit center mass- on the other hand it is a pop up range where you have to scan your sector and expect targets at a variety of ranges, aquire the target quickly and take a timely shot before it dissappears. In that sense, I think it is a good test overlaying basic marksmanship skills onto a "realistic" environment.

Another point in the article-- they keep mentioning him being an expert at "grenades". That's even more of a joke. You don't even use live grenades when receiving that qualification. If you can low crawl up to a bunker and toss one in, hit an area target from 25 meters away and manage to lob one into a mortar pit or foxhole from 15 meters- you're goochy. Mostly luck is involved- you get a bad bounce you lose.

33 posted on 10/28/2002 2:23:50 PM PST by Prodigal Son
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: JoeSixPack1
"When did my USMC change from yards to meters ??
Did they move the targets back to the correct metered measurement?
Or am I just so old I can't remember correctly?"



Joe, we are still using yards. 200, 300 and 500 on the KD course. Semper Fi.


34 posted on 10/28/2002 2:27:24 PM PST by SICSEMPERTYRANNUS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
The expert badge is only meaningless if your buddy pencil-whips your scorecard. Before I joined the army, I had never shot anything more intimidating than a BB gun. I now consistently hit 38-39 out of 40 and I am a bandsman for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!!!

Most people here could do what the "sniper" did with a couple hours training unless you shake so much you look like a human earthquake.

--Ear Assault!

35 posted on 10/28/2002 2:35:35 PM PST by GISax
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Stand Watch Listen
I still have my orders bestowing marksmanship badges on my basic training company from February, 1952. The weapon was the M-1 Garand.

Of the 230 shooters, there were:

27 Expert - 11.7%
110 Sharpshooter - 47.8%
85 - Marksman - 37%
8 - Unqualified - 3.4%%

I qualified as Expert and I had fired a .22 rifle only a couple of times as a teenager.
36 posted on 10/28/2002 2:35:51 PM PST by jackbill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RetiredArmy
That day, my 300 targets were blended in. I could see the berm behind where the target was suppose to be, but mostly it was a black spot in the middle of the berm. I fired at the black spot and hit them all.

I have to say I was quite pleased to earn my first expert badge. It was scored by someone I didn't know on a day when I couldn't even see the upright targets at 250-300 meters - only the glint as they came up. But my biggest problem was actualy at 25m - the target was so full of holes that I didn't get knockdowns with two rounds. Went right "through". That lead to a few words out of the side of my mouth.

37 posted on 10/28/2002 2:36:44 PM PST by LTCJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: xsrdx
I was a tanker. Our personal weapon was M1911A .45 cal pistol. the ones we had were old used up pieces of junk. The slides would rattle when you shook the pistol!

The only people that didn't qualify as expert were losers. It was simple. Shooting an M-16 (which we did for familiarization ) was easy too. We had a good old boy sargeant that could hit a plate at 400 yards while in a standing position.

38 posted on 10/28/2002 2:39:40 PM PST by glorgau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SICSEMPERTYRANNUS
Thanks! I thought so!

Semper Fi

or in this case - Semper Gumby :-)
39 posted on 10/28/2002 2:42:59 PM PST by JoeSixPack1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: SICSEMPERTYRANNUS; JoeSixPack1
Joe, SST...

Edson Range at Pendleton is calibrated in meters, and Parris Island is in yards. It takes 4 fewer points to get the various grades on the metric course (186-206 is Marksman, 207-216 is Sharpshooter, 217 and up is expert). 250 is still a possible (and a REE-KROOT supposedly got one at Edson in 1988).
40 posted on 10/28/2002 2:48:17 PM PST by Poohbah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Bugbear
I think and hope the mistakes in this article are from the author. I would hate an instuctor would say a rifle on a "tripod" or a retired veteran would mention he can hit coins with an M-16 with iron sights.

It was a very big deal for my son and I to earn our Expert badges, although earning an NRA badge is much harder. I'm presently stuck at expert and I need at least five more points on my average to become an NRA Master.
41 posted on 10/28/2002 3:10:04 PM PST by Shooter 2.5
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
Ah! leave it to the "RAW"krootes!

I'm an old PI guy. I got both my expert badges so long ago that the weapons I used are now dust. and...........
We didn't get sunglasses like those Hollywood Marines... :-)
42 posted on 10/28/2002 3:14:47 PM PST by JoeSixPack1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: JoeSixPack1
Sunglasses?

We don't know nothin' about no sunglasses...

We don't have any sunglasses...

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' SUNGLASSES!

43 posted on 10/28/2002 3:16:28 PM PST by Poohbah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
ROFLMAO!

uh huh....:-)
44 posted on 10/28/2002 3:26:03 PM PST by JoeSixPack1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
You have to be a Naval Aviator to be issued sunglasses. And a leather jacket, too.
45 posted on 10/28/2002 3:34:21 PM PST by ChicagahAl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: taxcontrol
Thanks you for that product recommendation! It looks like it is worth a try.
46 posted on 10/28/2002 3:36:25 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: taxcontrol
I have a Remington 700 Police special in .308. It is far more the rifle than I am a shooter and at anything under 300 yards it makes me look good. I even got a coyote at 400 yards. I have no idea what the minute of angle is in this thing but it is small in comparison to all my other rifles.

I qualified on a Navy Range north of the NCBC in Gulfport with the M-16 and .45 1911 pistol. I made the expert marksman grade. It was almost too easy. I was accused of being from some other branch of the service other than the USAF.

47 posted on 10/28/2002 3:44:05 PM PST by vetvetdoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: vetvetdoug
According to Remington the Police Specials are 1/2 MOA min out of the box. My local deal says they consistantly come in at 1/4 MOA. They are very nice.

There were only two reasons I went with the VS

1) I hunt in Colorado and the changes in temp / weather / altitude play heck with a wood stock's accuracy

2) I could get it in 28" barrel (the extra 4" adding 200 fps making the balistics of my Federal Match 180 grain BTHP look like 165 grain 30-06 and in left handed.

That extra velocity makes my hunting a bit easier on me. Not uncommon to have a 200 to 400 yard elk shot out here. Due to bum knee and being 1/2 deaf (US Army Infantry) I cant get as close as I used to.
48 posted on 10/29/2002 7:52:56 AM PST by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Beelzebubba
Thanks you for that product recommendation! It looks like it is worth a try.

No problem - I swear by it!

Takes a bit of working with it to get it tuned well. I highly recommend having a gunsmith install it in the forestock.

Once installed be prepared to go through 500+ rounds firing from bench. Use your hunting ammo, not your practice ammo. Different ammo will make a difference. The down side for me is that my hunting ammo is match grade and costs nearly a buck per shot.

After tuning twice I would make the following recommendation. First screw the block in as far as it will travel (don't force) in one direction. Then screw it as far as it will go the other direction, counting the number of turns. Start a chart with the left hand side recording the block position by turn(s) and the right hand side recording the MOA (a good caliper helps). Each chart entry should be measured in whole turns.

Once you have the lowest MOA per whole turn, then try adjusting by 1/4 turns off from the full turn using another chart. This will help find the sweet spot as rapidly as possible - especial the second time you go to do this. This is something I did not do and wish I had.

If you hand load, get a consistant load worked up, work with it till you get the smallest group possible, and then make MINOR adjustments in your loads. You might even be able to get that .08 MOA.

Good luck!

49 posted on 10/29/2002 8:02:31 AM PST by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Prodigal Son
I just remembered. Many of these pop-up targets will go down if you get enough dirt to pepper the target from a too low shot.
50 posted on 10/30/2002 5:45:33 AM PST by sparkomatic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-54 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson