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Army's secret 'people zapper' plans
The Observer (U.K.) ^ | 11/03/2002 | Antony Barnett

Posted on 11/02/2002 5:08:18 PM PST by Pokey78

Britain has been involved in secret talks with the United States over the development of so-called non-lethal weapons, including lasers that blind the enemy and microwave systems that cook the skin of human targets.

The Observer has established that British and US military leaders met at the Ministry of Defence HQ in London to discuss the operational benefits of such technology when used as a 'persuasive tool' against people from enemy regimes.

Documents obtained under the US Freedom of Information Act detail talks about battlefield uses of the weapons and whether they could be used to back up economic sanctions against target countries. The weapons include lasers that can blind and stun an enemy and cut through metal to disable vehicles.

Another weapon discussed was a system that uses microwave beams to heat the water in human skin in the same way as a microwave oven cooks a meal. The third category of weapons was the use of gases similar to those deployed to end the terrorist siege in a Moscow theatre, which killed more than 100 hostages.

The disclosures prompted demands last night from opposition politicians for a full statement on Britain's involvement in developing such weapons. Opposition MPs and campaigners believe the fact that the military is considering developing and using these weapons in war or as a tool to threaten other states breaches a number of international arms and humanitarian treaties.

Menzies Campbell, foreign affairs spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, called on the Government to 'come clean' on Britain's involvement and will demand Foreign Secretary Jack Straw gives details.

'These reports have serious implications,' Campbell said. 'If Britain and American are together seeking to exploit loopholes in existing international arms convention, our credibility will be severely undermined. Suggestions that we use such weapons as part of any sanctions programme is a level of policy which must be discussed on the House of Commons.'

British personnel at the secret meeting with the US military included Vice Admiral Sir Jeremy Blackham and Dr Martin Hubbard, who heads the non-lethal weapons research programme at Porton Down, Wiltshire. US officers included Major General Bice, deputy commander of the US Marines in Europe, and Brigadier-General Richard Zilmer, deputy director of US operations at European Command Headquarters.

The documents reveal the full scope of the new weapons programmes that the US military is developing. The first was high-power microwave technology that cooks an enemy's skin. Its military name is the Vehicle-Mounted Active Denial System (V-Mads), but it has already been nicknamed the People Zapper. It works by harnessing electromagnetic power to fire an invisible pulse of energy at light speed towards a target. The beam causes the water molecules under the skin to vibrate violently, producing heat and discomfort. Scientists believe the system could heat a person's skin to about 130 degrees in two seconds.

The US delegation admits there might be problems with legal claims by victims.

The documents reveal that both the British and US military believe laser beams have a 'number of potential applications and desirable attributes as a non-lethal weapon'. They are impressed that laser guns can be 'tunable' either to stun or kill. Although laser weapons that permanently blind are banned under international law, the documents show officials are studying low-energy lasers that blind temporarily and others that produce a stunning effect.

The classified document, which is an 'assessment report' of a meeting that took place on 30 November 2000, admits the term 'non-lethal' was inaccurate.'


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 11/02/2002 5:08:18 PM PST by Pokey78
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To: Pokey78
Would you like your Osama with fries?
2 posted on 11/02/2002 5:17:08 PM PST by Lurking2Long
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To: Lurking2Long
Only if he's cooked over a long, slow fire.
3 posted on 11/02/2002 5:20:03 PM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: Pokey78

4 posted on 11/02/2002 5:21:25 PM PST by TheRedSoxWinThePennant
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To: Pokey78
Another weapon discussed was a system that uses microwave beams to heat the water in human skin in the same way as a microwave oven cooks a meal.

Can someone point out a meaningful distinction between biological and chemical weapons and the above?

5 posted on 11/02/2002 5:21:56 PM PST by independentmind
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To: Pokey78
It's simpler to just kill your enemy.
6 posted on 11/02/2002 5:24:36 PM PST by demlosers
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To: independentmind
Yes, I can. It's being specifically designed to be able to be used in a non-lethal fashion.
7 posted on 11/02/2002 5:29:15 PM PST by Senator Pardek
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To: Lurking2Long
Would you like your Osama with fries?

Yes, and can you supersize that?

8 posted on 11/02/2002 5:30:05 PM PST by john in missouri
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To: Senator Pardek
I see. Don't kill 'em, just burn 'em all over their bodies. And no doubt, all with the push of a button.
9 posted on 11/02/2002 5:34:38 PM PST by independentmind
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To: independentmind
[Can someone point out a meaningful distinction between biological and chemical weapons and the above?]

I don't see any. If you plan to blind me or cook me - save yourself some money and just shoot me. By the way a microwave doesn't necessarily cook the from the outside in (at least mine doesn't) The inside is cooking at the same time the outside is.

10 posted on 11/02/2002 5:38:43 PM PST by nanny
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To: independentmind
Bioweapons are generally living viruses and bacteria. Many can continue to multiply and spread well beyond the intended target population. Chemical weapons are generally poisons whose targets are in a limited area. The chemicals do not "reproduce" in a "contagious" fashion, but the effects may linger in an area for periods of hours to days. The microwave weapon is directed at a specified target. It hits the target and ceases to have additional effect when the device is turned off. Troops attending to a microwaved soldier will not be poisoned or infected with a disease.
11 posted on 11/02/2002 5:41:22 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin
Oh, so the problem is that biological weapons can have unintended victims? The weapons as described above seem to have a strong similarity to something civilized nations have frowned upon for quite a while--torture.
12 posted on 11/02/2002 5:43:57 PM PST by independentmind
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To: nanny
I've seen purported pictures of individuals hit by a microwave weapon. The skin surface looked like a piece of chicken breast left on the grill too long. Lots of black charred areas. The soldier's clothing was completely unaffected.
13 posted on 11/02/2002 5:44:43 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: independentmind
The weapons as described above seem to have a strong similarity to something civilized nations have frowned upon for quite a while--torture.

Perhaps, but then a smile is just a frown turned upside down.

14 posted on 11/02/2002 5:56:45 PM PST by Jeff Chandler
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To: Jeff Chandler
You might not be so glib if Saddam had the microwave weapons, no?
15 posted on 11/02/2002 5:58:12 PM PST by independentmind
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To: independentmind
Depends on their range.
16 posted on 11/02/2002 6:04:56 PM PST by Jeff Chandler
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To: Pokey78
Installing these zappers along our borders may be the only way to stop illegals. Cross into to the U.S. at any place other than an official entry point and you don't get in. Smugglers, Mexico, NY Times and demoncraps will raise hell, so it be a good idea.
17 posted on 11/02/2002 6:06:19 PM PST by Waco
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To: independentmind
But seriously, does this sound so much worse than flamethrowers, napalm, hand grenades, mortars, rockets, cannons, rifles, daisy cutters, FAEs, etc., etc., etc.?

Have you considered the possibility that this weapon may be used to repel an enemy without permanently injuring him? That it could, in fact, end up being more humane than current weaponry?
18 posted on 11/02/2002 6:10:43 PM PST by Jeff Chandler
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To: Waco
Alien al Carbón?
19 posted on 11/02/2002 6:13:03 PM PST by Jeff Chandler
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To: Jeff Chandler
But seriously, does this sound so much worse than flamethrowers, napalm, hand grenades, mortars, rockets, cannons, rifles, daisy cutters, FAEs, etc., etc., etc.?

Don't bother trying to explain what is so obvious. In a large demographic segment of humanity (which I will not name), emotion always trumps logic.

20 posted on 11/02/2002 6:14:17 PM PST by Senator Pardek
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To: independentmind
The weapons as described above seem to have a strong similarity to something civilized nations have frowned upon for quite a while--torture.

Our rulers apparently don't see anything wrong with that.

21 posted on 11/02/2002 6:14:49 PM PST by Korth
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To: Waco
Installing these zappers along our borders may be the only way to stop illegals.

Pish posh. Hook up a couple hundred M60s to motion sensors and drop them randomly along the border. Plant signs all along the border that say:

WARNING: IF YOU PROCEED YOU MAY BE SHOT TO DEATH BY ROBOT GUNS. CONTINUE AT YOUR OWN RISK. THE NEAREST LEGAL BORDER CROSSING IS X MILES THATAWAY. PLEASE TURN AROUND. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

22 posted on 11/02/2002 6:18:31 PM PST by Jonathon Spectre
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To: independentmind
The weapons as described above seem to have a strong similarity to something civilized nations have frowned upon for quite a while--torture.

Have you seen what a human abdomen looks like after a guy's been shot in the gut with a .223 bullet?

What they're describing is something that could be used to convince somebody to go away, before you get to the point of having to shoot.

23 posted on 11/02/2002 6:19:43 PM PST by SauronOfMordor
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To: Senator Pardek
Emotions aren't always a bad thing, Pardek. But I think I'll forgo the pleasure of further discussion this evening.
24 posted on 11/02/2002 6:20:49 PM PST by independentmind
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To: independentmind
Does it kill thousands of people indiscriminately? No? then it isn't a WOMD.
25 posted on 11/02/2002 6:22:11 PM PST by Darksheare
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To: Senator Pardek
I used to be in an artillery unit. I wonder how many of the WIMPS here would like to see what a good salvo of HE can do?
Doesn't matter if it's 105mm or 155mm. It's better to make the bad guys all nice and toasty warm and comfy in the dark. (Blind 'em and cook 'em. Trust me, it's more humane.)
If we had these weapons in actual field use, it would save alot of our soldiers lives. Bet the WIMPS haven't thought oif that one. Or do they, like the Democrats, like the thought of dead US soldiers?

I agree with ya here....
26 posted on 11/02/2002 6:26:59 PM PST by Darksheare
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To: Senator Pardek
In a large demographic segment of humanity (which I will not name), emotion always trumps logic.

I think I know who you're refering to. Hmmm, let me see... has this demographic segment been known to squat when they pee?

27 posted on 11/02/2002 6:28:52 PM PST by Jeff Chandler
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To: Myrddin
I've seen purported pictures of individuals hit by a microwave weapon. The skin surface looked like a piece of chicken breast left on the grill too long. Lots of black charred areas. The soldier's clothing was completely unaffected.

I can see where this weapon would facilitate the mass confiscation of firearms in the future. Gun owners are fighting against the door to door searchs for illegal guns? Just fry them with this weapon. It can be done with a clear conscience; after all, it may horribly disfigure them for life, but it is non-lethal.

28 posted on 11/02/2002 6:29:12 PM PST by Korth
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To: independentmind
There is a school of thought that these futuristic types of weapons are O.K. for us to use, but criminal if anyone else uses them. If some foreign country used such a weapon against American soldiers or civilians, those who are supporters of our having this type of weapon would be horrified and would demand punishment for the weapon's users.
29 posted on 11/02/2002 6:32:46 PM PST by Korth
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To: Pokey78
pbbbbbbt!

EMP bursts, followed by sonic weapons, are the way to go if you want to disable an enemy in a fairly non-lethal fashion. Anyone flying or operating heavy machinery when the bursts go off is toast, of course, but everyone else can lie on the ground soiling their pants and unable to move until hostilities cease.

J
30 posted on 11/02/2002 7:02:55 PM PST by jedwardtremlett
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To: Jeff Chandler
Isn't it amazing the intolerance that some people show for the use of certain weapons when people aren't going to be shooting at them, 'just' at other American citizens?

I suspect that that intolerance fades dramatically when you're the shootee instead of the one sitting back in your living room watching the war on CNN/FOX.

Godspeed

31 posted on 11/02/2002 7:43:07 PM PST by America's Resolve
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To: Pokey78
Several years ago I saw a fascinating TV show on one of the "info" cable channels (TLC, TDC, PBS, I forget which). Its topic was non-lethal weapons, both existing (e.g. pepper spray, rubber bullets, etc.) and experimental/theoretical.

One of the points the show made was very profound: It said that the good news was that with such weapons people could be deterred without having to kill them. The bad news was that since you're *not* killing them (and in some cases causing no lasting harm at all), governments would be far more willing to use them, since they wouldn't have to worry about the backlash that simply mowing down a crowd would cause.

The reason this is troubling is because it would encourage governments to use oppressive measures to "keep the peace" or simply suppress dissent whenever it arose. It's easy to picture a government developing a "if anyone causes trouble, zap 'em until they quiet down" policy. It makes the slippery slope towards a police state and/or dictatorship that much steeper and more slippery.

32 posted on 11/02/2002 9:05:21 PM PST by Dan Day
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To: Pokey78
Army's secret 'people zapper' plans

I believe the admin moderators are already employing such a weapon:


33 posted on 11/02/2002 9:51:39 PM PST by Diddle E. Squat
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To: Jeff Chandler
"Have you considered the possibility that this weapon may be used to repel an enemy without permanently injuring him? That it could, in fact, end up being more humane than current weaponry?"

Yes, one can consider that, but these non-lethal weapons are technologies for political control. You might be interested in the following article. Yes, it was prepared by the Scientific and Technological Options Assessments for European Parliament, but it also includes what the U.S. has come up with as far as torture weapons and who makes them here. Names names, IOW. BTW, these weapons are not in the planning stage, many are in use as we speak.



34 posted on 11/02/2002 9:58:58 PM PST by JusticeLives
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To: JusticeLives
Heh heh I hope this link still works. This article has been taken down from the net too many times to count and the URL gets longer each upload:

http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/te/1393/s1.html
35 posted on 11/02/2002 10:05:02 PM PST by JusticeLives
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To: demlosers
It's simpler to just kill your enemy.

Perseus had the Medusa's head. All I have is this:


36 posted on 11/02/2002 10:05:07 PM PST by strela
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To: strela
 
"Ho, ho, ho, ho, hoooo.. your Jedi mind control tricks don't work on me."

37 posted on 11/02/2002 10:44:41 PM PST by Jeff Chandler
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To: Dan Day
...."slippery slope towards a police state and/or dictatorship that much steeper and more slippery."....

You stole my thunder. I saw the same show. I believe it was on TechTV. At first, I thought, ...how cool! Then, they talked about a police state. I thought of what it would be like if Barbra Boxer or Hillary were in power. You might protest their policy a time or two, but then you might think long and hard about protest again after suffering through these "Non-leathal" weapons. Most people would just submit after a time or two, convinced that giving up the 2nd amendment ain't so bad. Who cares if you pay 80% taxes, after all its for the children. We would be just mindless robots for them to control. Any resistance would just be met yet again, with "minimal force." If they can get "Hate Crime laws" passed, they can make everything illegal.

38 posted on 11/02/2002 11:01:33 PM PST by chuckles
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To: Korth
I don't think the example I saw was non-lethal. The power levels were high enough to turn the man into a crispy critter without doing any damage to his clothing. The non-lethal power level plants a first degree burn on the surface of your skin that stings like a very bad sunburn.

I saw some descriptions of infrasonic weapons as well. Relatively low technology devices that blast the hell out of their targets. No radiation. Very focused destruction.

39 posted on 11/02/2002 11:01:49 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Waco
Re #17

How about the underground tunnels ?

40 posted on 11/03/2002 2:15:37 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: Lurking2Long
"Would you like your Osama with fries?"

Can I substitute fried Pork Skins?

Semper Fi

41 posted on 11/03/2002 2:29:10 AM PST by river rat
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To: Jeff Chandler
Have you considered the possibility that this weapon may be used to repel an enemy without permanently injuring him? That it could, in fact, end up being more humane than current weaponry?

That would be fine. But have you considered the possibility that after the military have tested and validated these weapons, the government may allow law enforcement to use these things in situations where they would not be allowed to use conventional weapons? For example, during a political demonstration which looks like it might turn nasty. Also these sorts of things could easily be used as implements of torture.

Here in Britain, the Police use batten rounds and tear gas on unlawful marchers, if they deem it appropriate. A batten round can kill or maim, although its supposed to be 'non-lethal'. Plenty of people have been killed by them and that 'non-lethal' gas in Moscow killed at least 116 people. I wonder how safe a laser which causes temporary blindness actually is, personally I would prefer to be dead than permanently blinded. Also a microwave which cooks the skin could probably make a man sterile. If non-lethal weapons could be used in warfare without causing permanent disabilities then fair enough, but its a short step from there to using them to control undesirable political demonstrators etc.

42 posted on 11/03/2002 10:11:01 AM PST by David Hunter
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43 posted on 11/03/2002 10:17:43 AM PST by KneelBeforeZod
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To: Myrddin
[I've seen purported pictures of individuals hit by a microwave weapon. The skin surface looked like a piece of chicken breast left on the grill too long. Lots of black charred areas. The soldier's clothing was completely unaffected]

Yes, I can put paper towel or dishcloth over food - but it is not just cooking from the surface in - it is cooking the middle, interior or whatever. When the exterior of something in my microwave is charred or even done - the interior is pretty close to being 'done' also. What kind of damage is that doing to internal organs - As I said, just shoot me!!! It is more humane and I don't see a difference in that and some chemical and biological warfare. Just my opinion.

44 posted on 11/03/2002 1:16:17 PM PST by nanny
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To: Pokey78
Black Bird

C. J. Coley

A Deadly New Beam Weapon and a Challenge to Freedom

45 posted on 11/04/2002 2:07:17 AM PST by SteveH
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To: Pokey78
Black Bird

by Craig J. Coley

1995

http://www.coleygroup.com/commrepairdepot/Blackbird.PDF

An investigation of the mysterious April 15, 1995 crash
of a presidential helicopter near Washington, D.C.
in which the victims suffered radiation-like burns
and which was sparsely covered by the local and
national media.

46 posted on 11/04/2002 2:14:04 AM PST by SteveH
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To: SteveH
The previously posted work is fiction, but it is based on a real account of a helicopter crash in the Washington, DC area in 1993 in which the victims had strange burn marks on their skin, etc.

Frank Owens investigated the crash. His web site is here.

47 posted on 11/04/2002 8:30:27 AM PST by SteveH
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To: SteveH
More on the apparently microwave directed energy weapon related helicopter crash. From the Clinton Body Count list (Geoff Metcalf website version, at http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/397.html):

Staff Sgt. Brian Haney
Clinton bodyguard
Marine Sgt. Tim Sabel
Clinton bodyguard
Maj. William Barkley
Clinton bodyguard
Capt. Scott Reynolds
Clinton bodyguard

died: 5/19/93 - All four men died when their helicopter crashed in the woods near Quantico, Va. - Reporters were barred from the site, and the head of the fire department responding to the crash described it by saying, "Security was tight," with "lots of Marines with guns." A videotape made by a firefighter was seized by the Marines. All four men had escorted Clinton on his flight to the carrier Roosevelt shortly before their deaths.
48 posted on 11/04/2002 12:19:07 PM PST by SteveH
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