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Top cops aided plot to acquire AK-47s: seizure of 1,500 machine guns, Yak-B "aircraft cannon"
St. Louis Post-Dispatch ^ | 11.19.02 | PETER SHINKLE

Posted on 11/19/2002 7:50:04 AM PST by rface

Edited on 05/11/2004 5:34:01 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Federal agents raided the Lincoln County property of James Carmi in October 2000 and seized a stockpile of 800 machine guns.

The event, which remained undisclosed to the public for two years, has spurred a massive investigation into how Carmi - a convicted felon - could get a federal firearms permit from the U.S. Treasury's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and then acquire so many strictly controlled weapons.


(Excerpt) Read more at stltoday.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Ohio
KEYWORDS: machineguns
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ATF confiscated 372 automatic weapons
from a Ohio gun dealer charged in trying to smuggle them
past federal restrictions.

Ashland, Missouri
1 posted on 11/19/2002 7:50:04 AM PST by rface
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To: rface
This fellow's gonna be on the inside looking out for a long time.
2 posted on 11/19/2002 7:54:49 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: rface
Powder..Patch..Ball FIRE!

This guy lived in Elsberry up Hiway 79 where I misspent part of my youth. Sounds like he had a pretty good scam going, but where did the guns go? HUMMMMM???

3 posted on 11/19/2002 7:57:44 AM PST by BallandPowder
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To: rface
A NASA spokesman confirmed the agency uses machine guns at some of its sites ...

To me, this is the biggest surprise in the article. Who knew that NASA needs machine guns? Are they mounting them on space probes for defense against alien ships...LOL...

4 posted on 11/19/2002 8:00:13 AM PST by freedomcrusader
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To: rface
gee whiz--you'd think there would be machine guns showing up in crimes all over, wouldn't you?
5 posted on 11/19/2002 8:03:21 AM PST by rellimpank
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To: freedomcrusader
A NASA spokesman confirmed the agency uses machine guns at some of its sites ...

A couple of years ago I was mighty suprised to see a big, burly, "NASA" employee brandishing a MP-5 at the boarding station for the bus tours. It was the first time I'd seen security personnel armed with automatic weapons since passing through the Brussels, Belgium train station some 25 years ago.

6 posted on 11/19/2002 8:07:57 AM PST by Sangamon Kid
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To: Sangamon Kid
I would have guessed that other agencies provided for NASA's security. I would have guessed wrong...
7 posted on 11/19/2002 8:10:12 AM PST by freedomcrusader
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To: rellimpank
Personal protection, just in case the cannon misfires.
8 posted on 11/19/2002 8:10:50 AM PST by billhilly
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To: rface
I wonder if ther really were any "machine guns" since the meida can't be counted on to know the difference beteen a bb gun and a bazooka. To them, if it LOOKS like a machine gun, it must be a machine gun.
9 posted on 11/19/2002 8:10:58 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: Sangamon Kid
gee whiz--you'd think there would be machine guns showing up in crimes all over, wouldn't you?

Good point! The implication here is the increase of gun-control over the average Joe. See the quote below:

Doug Dawson, a spokesman for ATF, said the agency does not have the authority to control the weapons a police department uses. "How are we to know if it's an Andy Griffith department or it's a large department? Nowhere in the law does it say it's up to the ATF to scrutinize these requests."

He added that Congress may need to revisit the 1986 law that banned the weapons and established a system for regulating their importation, possession and sales.

10 posted on 11/19/2002 8:12:18 AM PST by Sangamon Kid
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To: Blood of Tyrants
I know I wouldn't trust the newspapers to know the difference between a BB gun and a machine gun, but I supect that they are talking full auto here...

I will e-mail the reporter and ask.

Ashland, Missouri

11 posted on 11/19/2002 8:14:34 AM PST by rface
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To: freedomcrusader
I would have guessed that other agencies provided for NASA's security. I would have guessed wrong.

Your guess is as good as mine. I didn't bother to ask him who his employer was. I was just suprised to see him there.

12 posted on 11/19/2002 8:17:46 AM PST by Sangamon Kid
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To: rface
Pretty sensational...and what great timing....
13 posted on 11/19/2002 8:18:57 AM PST by joesnuffy
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To: freedomcrusader
Who knew that NASA needs machine guns?


14 posted on 11/19/2002 8:36:31 AM PST by Sangamon Kid
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To: rface
Funny how they don't mention the fact that all these machine guns were registered post-samples and, as such, could only be legally sold to LE/Mil agencies or other licensed Class III dealers. I doubt anyone would go to the trouble of getting an FFL, registering imported post-samples, and then sell them illegally. Doing something that stupid would make a compliance audit...interesting.

The only real crime these men committed was getting the license fraudulently and bribing cops. Even so, the press turns this into a terrifying "gun" crime, when this kind of government graft and fraud happens everywhere all the time.

15 posted on 11/19/2002 8:54:11 AM PST by Trailerpark Badass
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To: rface
I suspect this is something more than a firearms dealer who got a bit above himself.

As for armed NASA personnel, there were several articles posted here back in the 90s indicating that clinton and Reno had a major program of arming all sorts of unusual folks in the government. Remember the firepower that INS brought to pull Elian out of his closet? I think clinton was making various end-runs around the usual restraints on law-and-order.

I simply don't belief that BATF was ignorant about this. I think it's likely that there was a corrupt faction within the organization, and that these weapons were going somewhere strange--maybe to Saddam's security people at OKC, or something like that. Can anyone believe they would accidentally overlook a small-town police department's order for 90,000 machineguns? I thin we are lucky that there were still a few honest people in BATF.
16 posted on 11/19/2002 9:25:48 AM PST by Cicero
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To: joesnuffy
Pretty sensational...and what great timing....

Don't forget, all this hanky-panky happened during the klinton administration. At the same time, BATF put 90% of legitimate FFL holders out of business. They claimed they "didn't have enough manpower" to check them all out.

My guess is that this is timed to pressure Bush into going along with more restrictions on honest gun owners, and prevent the sunset of the "assault weapons" law.

17 posted on 11/19/2002 9:46:02 AM PST by 300winmag
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To: 300winmag
My guess is that this is timed to pressure Bush into going along with more restrictions on honest gun owners, and prevent the sunset of the "assault weapons" law.

When it was the BATF that apparently issued a machine gun dealers license to a convicted felon? Seems to me this case is great evidence for the futility of trying to keep guns out of the hands of criminals by infringing upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Such restrictions, as was known by Thomas Jefferson, only restrict the law abiding, the criminals don't care about breaking one more law.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater … confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment (1764).

18 posted on 11/19/2002 10:04:02 AM PST by El Gato
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To: Cicero
....there were several articles posted here back in the 90s indicating that clinton and Reno had a major program of arming all sorts of unusual folks in the government.

Like his 100,000 new "police officers"? Remember all those bozos, bozoettes, and other assorted clowns at the Elian seizure? I wonder how closely monitored those firearms are now? Part of a plot to create and blame "right wing militia groups" for the terrorist activites he was studiously avoiding to address? Regardless, I would rather firearms in the hands of right wingers than leftists and their terrorists compatriots anyday.

19 posted on 11/19/2002 10:05:37 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: Blood of Tyrants
reporter's response from my e-mail:

They were machine guns. That, as you appear to know, means they were fully
automatic.

20 posted on 11/19/2002 11:31:25 AM PST by rface
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