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Giant Planets 'Formed In Hundreds Of Years'
Ananova ^ | 11-28-2002

Posted on 11/28/2002 4:41:17 PM PST by blam

Giant planets 'formed in hundreds of years'

Giant planets like Jupiter were formed in just a few hundred years, not several million as was previously thought, according to scientists.

The research completely contradicts the widely held assumption that it takes at least one million years for gas giant planets like Jupiter and Saturn to evolve.

Two years of work by scientists using a greatly refined mathematical model produced results that they say explain just how quickly such planets form.

Astrophysicist Thomas Quinn, from the University of Washington, said the disk of matter which spins round a young star begins to break up and congeal into planets more quickly than earlier thought.

The gravity of the resulting clusters of matter pulls in surrounding gas that makes up the vapour shrouds around giant planets like Jupiter, he told the journal Science.

"If a gas giant planet can't form quickly, it probably won't form at all," he said.

Scientists believe gas giants to be quite common, after finding evidence for about 100 planets of up to 10 times the size of Jupiter around other stars.

According to the research, the new mathematical model also explains why Uranus and Neptune do not have gas "envelopes".

The research team argued that when these more distant planets were formed, the solar system was still part of a star cluster and other nearby stars moved away, causing whatever gas the planets had to disperse.

Story filed: 19:01 Thursday 28th November 2002


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creation; formed; giant; hundreds; planets; tvf; xplanets; years
Don't know why this is significant.
1 posted on 11/28/2002 4:41:17 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Hey, I know a guy who can get the time down to seven days...
2 posted on 11/28/2002 4:51:44 PM PST by babygene
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To: blam
Scientists believe gas giants to be quite common, after finding evidence for about 100 planets of up to 10 times the size of Jupiter around other stars.

Isn't that close to the size of our sun? In any case 10 times the size of Jupiter is a big-ass planet.

There is some info out there about how much bigger Jupiter would have to be to turn into a star.

3 posted on 11/28/2002 4:51:56 PM PST by X-FID
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To: Physicist; RadioAstronomer; ThinkPlease; PatrickHenry; VadeRetro; Scully; Piltdown_Woman; ...
Something to help you digest the turkey-ping.

One wonders if these results can be extrapolated to the time required for stellar formation.....

4 posted on 11/28/2002 4:52:30 PM PST by longshadow
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To: X-FID
There is some info out there about how much bigger Jupiter would have to be to turn into a star.

Roughly speaking, Jupiter is 300 times the mass of the Earth. The sun is 300,000 times the mass of the Earth, or about 1,000 times the mass of Jupiter.

As best I recall, stars don't form unless the mass is at least 0.1 solar masses (and maybe even bigger), so a minimum stellar mass would be about 30,000 times the mass of the earth, which would be 10 times larger than a planet with a mass of ten Jupiters.....

That makes Jupiter too small to be a star by a factor of about 100....

Objects that are slightly too small to initiate fusion reactions and become full fledged stars are called "brown Dwarfs"... a google search will probably tell much more than I can about them....

5 posted on 11/28/2002 5:07:07 PM PST by longshadow
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To: X-FID
10 times the size of Jupiter

Sloppy journalism here. What is meant? 10 times the MASS? 10 times the DIAMETER? I'm guessing mass; diameter wouldn't probably reach 10 times Jupiter's without increasing the mass past the "brown dwarf" threshold.

Excluding the Sun, Jupiter contains the majority of known mass in the Solar System. But it still is way too small (low-mass) to have initiated fusion in its core: it's only .001 solar masses! The estimates vary; I've heard that Jupiter would have to be around 80 times its current mass to "turn on" as a very small red dwarf. Anything 10-70 Jupiter masses would be a "brown dwarf", glowing in the visible spectrum from residual heat.

6 posted on 11/28/2002 5:16:36 PM PST by petuniasevan
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To: longshadow
I have been around for a few years now, and re-establish my love for FR by the occasional info post such as yours. Thanks...makes it a great place.

SR

7 posted on 11/28/2002 5:18:39 PM PST by sit-rep
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To: X-FID
Even as "small" as Jupiter is, it's big enough to be very hot inside. It glows brightly in the infrared portion of the spectrum.


8 posted on 11/28/2002 5:21:05 PM PST by petuniasevan
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To: X-FID
"Isn't that close to the size of our sun? In any case 10 times the size of Jupiter is a big-ass planet."

I see a career as a high school science text book writer in your future.
...Cleo

9 posted on 11/28/2002 5:27:11 PM PST by VMI70
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To: babygene

10 posted on 11/28/2002 5:43:02 PM PST by Paul Atreides
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To: sit-rep
There otta be a law that every article like this declares just like the writing on a cigarette pack that the findings of the authors are their best guesses based on the knowledge at hand and that it is just a good damn guess. There will be a new idea somewhere down the road that turns this "knowledge" into trash. That you can count on.

Care to prove global warming anyone?

11 posted on 11/28/2002 6:01:22 PM PST by Thebaddog
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To: blam
Don't know why this is significant.

The problem with fast condensation is where the kinetic energy of all the original primordial particles in the condensing cloud goes. The usual model says that you have to radiate it away slowly as particles fall into the gravity well and heat things up.

At any given time, you have a near-equilibrium between the pull of gravity on the masses and the outward pressure of the hot gas. This "equilibrium" is dynamic and allows further collapse as the residual heat shines itself away. The usual thinking says that if you somehow force the cloud together faster than it can get rid of the energy in this way, it just blows apart again.

The article doesn't really say why the fast collapse works and how the primordial energy is dissipated. I certainly can't guess.

12 posted on 11/28/2002 7:04:26 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: babygene
YEC bump! and dittoes, me too
13 posted on 11/28/2002 7:29:32 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: VMI70
I see a career as a high school science text book writer in your future. ...Cleo

Well..okay then..., so what's your point?

14 posted on 11/28/2002 7:34:46 PM PST by X-FID
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To: Thebaddog
My favorite junk phrase from the pop-science publishing crowd: "We now know."

It's used this way: "At one time, people believed that [insert old theory here]. We now know that [insert new theory here]."

Makes you wonder, what are we going to "know" tomorrow that will change what we "now know" into what we "once believed"?

15 posted on 11/28/2002 7:41:53 PM PST by Oberon
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To: petuniasevan
Excluding the Sun, Jupiter contains the majority of known mass in the Solar System. But it still is way too small (low-mass) to have initiated fusion in its core: it's only .001 solar masses! The estimates vary; I've heard that Jupiter would have to be around 80 times its current mass to "turn on" as a very small red dwarf. Anything 10-70 Jupiter masses would be a "brown dwarf",

I have heard the same petuniasevan.

16 posted on 11/28/2002 7:42:05 PM PST by X-FID
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To: longshadow
Why are you here? I thought your primary interest was the un-name-able Planet Seven.
17 posted on 11/28/2002 7:53:40 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Oberon
Makes you wonder, what are we going to "know" tomorrow that will change what we "now know" into what we "once believed"?

KAY: Any given time, around fifteen hundred landed aliens are on the planet, the majority right here in Manhattan. Most aliens are decent enough, just trying to make a living.

EDWARDS: Cab drivers?

KAY: Not as many as you'd think. Humans, for the most part, don't have a clue. Don't want one, either. They're happy. They think they've got a pretty good bead on things.

EDWARDS: Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it.

KAY: A person is smart. People are dumb. Everything they've ever "known" has been proven to be wrong. A thousand years ago everybody knew as a fact, that the earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, they knew it was flat. Fifteen minutes ago, you knew we humans were alone on it. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

EDWARDS: So what's the catch?


18 posted on 11/28/2002 7:54:21 PM PST by dread78645
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To: VadeRetro
A recent edition of Discover or Sci Am has an article that deals with this very topic, the formation of our star and gas giant planets. If I were at home (instead of on the road for T-Giving) I could look it up for you. Sorry.
19 posted on 11/28/2002 7:57:02 PM PST by MHGinTN
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To: sit-rep
I have been around for a few years now, and re-establish my love for FR by the occasional info post such as yours.

Blush....

You're too kind; I'm just marking time with my post until some of the big guns drop by to really fill in the details.

20 posted on 11/28/2002 8:24:13 PM PST by longshadow
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To: VadeRetro
>....and how the primordial energy is dissipated.<

Carried away by "photon fairies"?

21 posted on 11/28/2002 8:27:07 PM PST by longshadow
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To: PatrickHenry
I thought your primary interest was the un-name-able Planet Seven.

Well, truth be known my primary interest is in threads about vibrating stimulation devices, but there's only so much you can say about that subject and not get arrested for public indecency.

So I bide my time on science-releated threads until another juicy "D*ldo Madness" thread pops up.....

22 posted on 11/28/2002 8:30:40 PM PST by longshadow
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To: babygene

Six Days!


23 posted on 11/28/2002 8:31:42 PM PST by Chemnitz
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To: blam
Gee, maybe in another hundred years they can the time
down to a few decades....
24 posted on 11/28/2002 8:32:04 PM PST by hosepipe
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To: Paul Atreides
That's not a moon, it's a space ship. What do you figgure, billion years to form that quivering heap of trash?=o)
25 posted on 11/28/2002 8:47:54 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Thebaddog
"There otta be a law that every article like this declares just like the writing on a cigarette pack that the findings of the authors are their best guesses based on the knowledge at hand and that it is just a good damn guess."

Well, friend, it is assumed that science progresses from best guesses based on knowledge at hand, being as to how that is the way it works. Luckily, science does not claim to be ungrounded 'found' knowledge such as one discovers in religious myth. Were it to be a priori, there wouldn't be anything left to learn, since all is known.
26 posted on 11/28/2002 8:54:26 PM PST by gcruse
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To: Chemnitz
Well, if you want to get technical about it, it was only ONE day.
27 posted on 11/28/2002 9:21:04 PM PST by babygene
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To: X-FID
...10 times the size of Jupiter is a big-ass planet.

My point is that your succinct (and accurate) description of the size of Jupiter would catch the eyes of our school children, and they would remember it. Then, when asked where Jupiter is, they won't say "Florida".

28 posted on 11/28/2002 9:21:38 PM PST by VMI70
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To: blam
Don't know why this is significant.
Me neither. I do know it's useful to physicists. It helps pry loose the next NAS grant. It gets tenure. And invitations to conferences.

My brother is at the fore of this type of research, into planet formations. He's an expert on black holes, and he is interested in dust particles. Don't ask me. We don't talk about this stuff at dinner. Tonight over turkey, for example, the closest we got to serious phsyics was the story that when Farraday was asked what in his life he might do differently, could he choose, he replied, "I'd learn algebra."

That wasn't much consolation to a moron like me, but it's nice to know that one of our greatest scientist punted the x's and y's, too.

My brother has made a career of the Hubble, Las Alamos & Harvard labs, and that really big computer in California. Or so he tells me. He's pretty good at math, too, which means that he's taken many a bath on the stock market. While phsycists can't figure out the universe (hell, they're still trying for some "unified" theory -- I've got a dozen of those), they think they can manage the cumulative output of the millions motivated by greed, taking advice from brokers motivated by greed, and buying stocks inflated by greedy CFO's. I hope that when they get their "unified" theories together they can account for human nature.

Meanwhile, it's kinda cool to think that Jupiter was formed in a few hundred thousand years. Time, as I understand it, aint' what it seems. But it's been a long time since my brother last tried to explain the theory of relativity to me. I couldn't get past the fare of those trains. And I could never figure out which way the wind was blowing, even though the smoke from the electric train was heading south...

I dunno. You tell me. I ain't gonna ask my bro.

29 posted on 11/28/2002 9:42:43 PM PST by nicollo
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To: gcruse
Science and religion are colliding and tending to merge in astrophysics. There is no question about the basis of scientific progression. It's the false certainty found in the hubris of the writers of the articles and in the lesser scientists that grate.
30 posted on 11/29/2002 5:56:38 AM PST by Thebaddog
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To: blam
Hey, I just recently read that Venus is only 3500 years old (wink).
31 posted on 11/29/2002 6:09:57 AM PST by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: MissAmericanPie
LOL!!
32 posted on 11/29/2002 8:12:35 AM PST by Paul Atreides
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Warning, from nearly FIVE years ago.
 
Catastrophism
· join · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post new topic ·

33 posted on 08/05/2007 6:53:04 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Thursday, August 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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