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Europe's nations fading to the left
The Washington Times ^ | December 5, 2002 | Paul Craig Roberts

Posted on 12/08/2002 5:51:24 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe

Edited on 07/12/2004 3:59:34 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Europe as we have known it is disappearing. Soon there will be no France, no Germany, no Italy, no Austria, no Spain, no Denmark, no Belgium, no Netherlands, no Greece, no Ireland, no Great Britain. Every country will be gone. In their place will be the European Union.


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Germany; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: eu; interdependence; sovereignty

1 posted on 12/08/2002 5:51:24 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Imagine there's no Europe, it's easy if you try........
2 posted on 12/08/2002 5:55:19 PM PST by TD911
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To: Tailgunner Joe
The EU only works because of US money and weaponry.

When the day comes that we pull our troops out of there, you will see this "union" collapse like a house of cards, looking for individual protection deals with the US.

The EU is such nonsense, I expect Canada to apply for membership soon.

3 posted on 12/08/2002 5:56:43 PM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: Tailgunner Joe
They've invalidated their own roots and cultures...
nature abhors a vacuum...get ready for sharia law
in Europe.
4 posted on 12/08/2002 6:01:56 PM PST by crypt2k
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To: BuddhaBoy
Ditto, BuddhaBoy. I usually agree with Roberts, but not this time. The EU is inherently flawed and unworkable, based as it is on the failed model of command economy. It's all academic anyway, since most of the continent will be controlled by muslims within a generation.
5 posted on 12/08/2002 6:07:17 PM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Yes, all of this is true. But it's a question whether it will work. China is a real threat, because it is a real country with a united people. Whether Europe can achieve that kind of common culture is extremely questionable.

The United states was built from the bottom up, by the consent of the people. Europe is being built from the top down, on a very shaky foundation.
6 posted on 12/08/2002 6:08:54 PM PST by Cicero
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To: Tailgunner Joe
This amazing diversity is to be replaced with an artificial creation that has no history and no language.

If only the eurotrash were struck mute. I'm tired of hearing them whine.

What is the European Union but a centralized bureaucracy with a monetary unit?

I'll bet the EU has trouble finding their monetary unit with a magnifying glass and tweezers.

7 posted on 12/08/2002 6:09:50 PM PST by LibKill
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To: Tailgunner Joe
There's no way that all of these European countries would ever blend into a "United States of Europe". The Germans will never like the French who will never like the English, etc. They're trying an economic union, and I'm not so sure that will work.
8 posted on 12/08/2002 6:10:05 PM PST by speekinout
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To: Tailgunner Joe
BUMP
9 posted on 12/08/2002 6:13:35 PM PST by RippleFire
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To: speekinout
Europe has this multicentury history of almost constant war except for the last 57 years under American domination.

They have a choice - only one choice in fact - reject diversity to have peace, freedom and prosperty.

Or, embrace diversity and have war, tyranny, and possibly a Moslem takeover.

10 posted on 12/08/2002 6:15:25 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Tailgunner Joe
The sovereign countries of Continental Europe and Great Britain are products of unique histories and rich cultural distinctiveness. Each country's language, art, literature, philosophy, music, architecture, cuisine, and mores reflects the uniqueness of each country's history.

This amazing diversity is to be replaced with an artificial creation that has no history and no language.

This pretty much sums up what happened to our ancestors when they emmigrated to the United States. Most of us descend from continental Europe, but after a couple of generations, our ethnic identities have been subsumed into American mass culture, which, I suppose, could be described as "an artificial creation that has no history and no language". But was it such a bad thing?

11 posted on 12/08/2002 6:16:28 PM PST by Lessismore
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To: RippleFire
Aren't major European cities now, for all pratical purposes, Muslim? For example, isn't Paris a Muslim city already? I mean the number of believing, abiding, mosque-going Muslims outnumber the number of Church-going Christian believers. Can someone verify this and post such numbers? I am willing to bet that many of the following cities can now be declared Muslim by the same criterion:

London, Manchester, Stockholm, Hamburg, Amsterdam, Marseilles, Barcelona.

So regardless of the stupid EU coming into existence or not, their misguided immigration policies, and leftist attitudes have already ensured their cultural demise.

12 posted on 12/08/2002 6:26:10 PM PST by nwrep
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To: Tailgunner Joe
The EU is a monstrosity that is being created largely against the wishes of the people of the member nations. Most of the referendums on its existence and expansion were rejected by the people, but the elites have gone right on plotting and have always gotten their way (so much for the concept of "self-government").

One of the big differences between the Europeans and Americans is that americans believe in self-government. That is, that the right to govern descends from the voluntary permission of the people. Europe is just the opposite. It has always been a group of societies where some big-shot rules the masses by some form of "divine right". The big-shots may change, but the overall idea remains the same.

Ayn Rand said it best "Europeans may rebel against their government, and may even hate it. But they never question government's right to rule over them. When they rebel, it is rather like a dependent slave who hates and flees from one master, only to seek a better master somewhere else."

13 posted on 12/08/2002 6:30:31 PM PST by quebecois
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To: Lessismore
The key word is assimilated. Most of the European immigrants came here for a better life and to get away from the problems they left. They assimilated and rejected the systems they left to make a better future for themselves and their children.

Our newest immigrants refuse to assimilate because they come here to work the system and have no respect for the ideals of the American dream. They reject the laws because they came here in defiance of the law and continue to have no respect for a nation that does not uphold their own laws.

14 posted on 12/08/2002 6:31:41 PM PST by meenie
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To: Tailgunner Joe
" Soon there will be no France, no Germany, no Italy, no
Austria, no Spain, no Denmark, no Belgium, no Netherlands, no Greece, no Ireland, no Great Britain.
Every country will be gone."

The problem is, these people cannot get along as separate entities never nams as a union!
15 posted on 12/08/2002 6:34:15 PM PST by lawdude
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To: nwrep
their misguided immigration policies, and leftist attitudes have already ensured their cultural demise.

You forgot their contraception and abortion. "Ethnic" Europeans of all nationalities run about 1.5 fertility rate, or less. Moslems run about 6.

Demographics is history!

16 posted on 12/08/2002 6:35:43 PM PST by Tax-chick
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Europe as we have known it is disappearing. Soon there will be no France, no Germany, no Italy, no Austria, no Spain, no Denmark, no Belgium, no Netherlands, no Greece, no Ireland, no Great Britain. Every country will be gone. In their place will be the European UnionEurabia.

That's more like it.

17 posted on 12/08/2002 6:40:35 PM PST by adx
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To: Tax-chick
"Ethnic" Europeans of all nationalities run about 1.5 fertility rate, or less. Moslems run about 6.

Sounds like the ratio of white Americans to hispanics.

18 posted on 12/08/2002 6:49:02 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Yes, it does. I speak Spanish, do you? :-)
19 posted on 12/08/2002 6:50:33 PM PST by Tax-chick
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To: meenie
The key word is assimilated. Most of the European immigrants came here for a better life and to get away from the problems they left. They assimilated and rejected the systems they left to make a better future for themselves and their children.

The reason that they assimilated is that there are cultural similarities among the Europeans that cut across traditional national boundaries. In fact, those boundaries have not always been where they are currently. Germany and Italy were unified in the late 1900's. Austria-Hungary was broken up in 1918. The United Kingdom is a union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Some ethnic groups like the Latvians and Estonians have usually not had nation states. Today, there are smaller ethnic groups in the Baltic area who do not have nation states.

Our newest immigrants refuse to assimilate because they come here to work the system and have no respect for the ideals of the American dream. They reject the laws because they came here in defiance of the law and continue to have no respect for a nation that does not uphold their own laws.

Europeans who come to the US still assimilate pretty well. The phenomena you cite mostly applies to immigrants from Latin America, and especially Mexicans in the southwest. Second generation Americans from most other areas are pretty fully assimilated unless they observe some weird religious orthodoxy.

20 posted on 12/08/2002 6:57:36 PM PST by Lessismore
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To: Tailgunner Joe
bump from the right
21 posted on 12/08/2002 7:15:02 PM PST by foreverfree
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To: Cicero
"The United states was built from the bottom up, by the consent of the people. Europe is being built from the top down, on a very shaky foundation."

Which is why, at some point, resistance will be put down by force and coercion.

22 posted on 12/08/2002 7:15:35 PM PST by Tench_Coxe
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To: Tailgunner Joe; All
Anybody here read about the Velvet revolution? Is Poland not a figure?
23 posted on 12/08/2002 7:31:07 PM PST by cornelis
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To: muawiyah
Europe has this multicentury history of almost constant war except for the last 57 years under American domination.

This is true. Americans have always been a varied group of people who share similar values, but have not much background in common. Europeans typically care more about their shared background than their current values.
I think that's one of the reasons that the US has such bad press in other countries. Americans just can't understand why ethnic background matters, but the growing number of illegal immigrants is sure changing that.

24 posted on 12/08/2002 7:37:30 PM PST by speekinout
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: Tailgunner Joe
Bump
26 posted on 12/08/2002 7:48:45 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: Tailgunner Joe
"Soon there will be no France, no Germany, no Italy, no Austria, no Spain, no Denmark, no Belgium, no Netherlands, no Greece, no Ireland, no Great Britain."

And they won't be missed. Except for the last two. :)

27 posted on 12/08/2002 7:56:33 PM PST by Pyrion
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To: nwrep
London, Manchester, Stockholm, Hamburg, Amsterdam, Marseilles, Barcelona.

Well. Here's this link showing Muslim population breakdown by country- http://www.iiie.net/Intl/PopStats.html. Now this is put out by "The Institute of Islamic Information and Education", so I would assume if anything these figures are "optimistic" but let's assume for a moment they're fact.

London has a population of over 7 million. According to the link there are 1.5 million Muslims in the entire UK. Even if they were all in London (which they're not) they would only amount to about 20% of London's population.

Also according to this link: http://populations.com/Country.asp?ID=197&CityID=8046- There are Anglican 27 million, Roman Catholic 9 million, Muslim 1million, Presbyterian 800,000, Methodist 760,000, Sikh 400,000, Hindu 350,000, Jewish 300,000 in the United Kingdom. So we're looking at about 37.5 million various Christian faith people compared to the One million Muslims.

The number of Muslims in France is a bit cloudier. I've come across various claims. The original link I provided by the Muslim Institute... cites the figure of 1.7 million. Some assorted "scare monger" type sites cited figures as high as 8- 10 million. The following link cites a breakdown of where the Muslims in France come from so let's go with that- source- http://www.brook.edu/dybdocroot/fp/cusf/analysis/islam.htm#foot%201- it cites 4.1 million Muslims in France or I believe about 10% (or less) of the population of France.

The following link- http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0858211.html cites Roman Catholicism as being the number one religion in France with 80% of the population claiming to be Catholic. But I believe in Marseilles the Muslim population is very large- perhaps as large as 50%. I've seen figures that show that certain teenage- young adult demographics in Marseilles are 50% Muslim.

Barcelona. Spain is also heavily Catholic. This link here http://www.bcn.es/estadistica/angles/dades/anu98/i0201078.htm shows population by nationality in Barcelona. It looks to me like there are more Germans, French, Italians etc than Muslims in Barcelona's 1.5 million population.

Hamburg's population is about 1.7 million, 150,000- 200,000 of which are Muslim.

Amsterdam. Several sources I read stated that the Muslim population in the Netherlands' major cities was roughly equal to the native born Dutch population. You could probably get some better info from knighthawk if you feel like giving him a ping.

? I mean the number of believing, abiding, mosque-going Muslims outnumber the number of Church-going Christian believers.

I don't think this is a good criterion to be judging whether or not a city is Muslim or not. I mean, just because you're not Christian doesn't mean you're Muslim. I'm not a Christian but I'm certainly not to be found praying to Allah. There are Hindus, atheists, people who believe in God but who reject Christianity etc etc. At any rate- the picture is nowhere near as bleak as you speculate but the picture is worrying. Something must be done to stem Muslim immigration in Europe soon or in the next decade or so we might actually see your description of "Muslim cities".

28 posted on 12/08/2002 8:29:53 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: Prodigal Son
Very interesting facts. I bet that the numbers are lower since the info is from a Islamic site. No matter how many there truely are in Europe, they are still a threat to western civilization.
29 posted on 12/08/2002 9:08:55 PM PST by JohnnyRidden
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To: Lessismore
Middle and Upper class Latin Americans tend to assimilate as well, as most of European ancestry anyway. Jews held out for a long time, now even they are intermarrying 55-60% of the time. Some ethnic groups, such as Hindu Indians, have not yet fully assimilated through intermarriage, but have generally adapted themselves fairly well.

None of this changes the fact that most immigrants I meet from Asia and Eastern Europe are to the left of the average American...

30 posted on 12/08/2002 9:15:09 PM PST by Clemenza
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To: Pyrion
Eh..hem... The heads of government (Berlusconi and Aznar) of Italy and Spain are pro-American. Besides, without Italy alone, Europe would lose 70% of its beautiful women and 100% of its best food and wine.

If we lost Ireland, the worst that would happen would be no Guinness. Wait a second, THAT WOULD BE A TRAGEDY!!!

31 posted on 12/08/2002 9:18:50 PM PST by Clemenza
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To: Tailgunner Joe
A single currency and the elimination of trade barriers was a great idea for Europe. If the EU had stuck to these two issues, it would have been a great benefit to Europe. What has happened in Europe however shows just how badly a good idea can be screwed up when government bureaucrats are involved.
32 posted on 12/08/2002 9:48:16 PM PST by Badger1
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Europe's nations fading to the left

Earth to the Author: Europe invented the "left" and has never strayed from that path since socialism became "legitimate."

33 posted on 12/08/2002 10:19:26 PM PST by Demidog
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To: muawiyah
Europe has this multicentury history of almost constant war except for the last 57 years under American domination.

LOL. America has been at war without a break since 1941. Since 1941, the US has had military operations somewhere in the world.

34 posted on 12/08/2002 10:23:13 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Tailgunner Joe
"Something's rotten in the state of Denmark"...and England, and France, and Germany and...
35 posted on 12/08/2002 10:27:17 PM PST by texasbluebell
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To: Tailgunner Joe
This is nonsense. It's based on the false premise that there was one French, German, Italian, Spanish (etc.) culture that was the sacred trust of the national government. Anyone who has ever been to Europe knows that within each of these 'nations' are AT LEAST 5 or 6 sub-groups who have managed to maintain distinct identities notwithstanding the presence of a homogenizing national bureacracy.
The EU is isn't a threat to European civic or political culture and the shift to the left will eventually be corrected by a shift to the right. Yes, even in Europe political trends are cyclical.
36 posted on 12/08/2002 10:52:07 PM PST by Pitchfork
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To: Lessismore
"The phenomena you cite mostly applies to immigrants from Latin America, and especially Mexicans in the southwest. "

Unlike you, I live in the Southwest. Immigrants from Latin America generally assimilate, in following generations.

I have many friends who are second and later generations, and they are Americans first, ethnic heretige second. Just exactly like the descendants other immigrant groups.

I will concede that the large illegal immigrant population, appears to not assimilate. But I believe you are judging from the first generation.

My 2 cents worth.
37 posted on 12/09/2002 12:41:25 AM PST by truth_seeker
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Adam Weishaupt must be chuckling in his grave.
38 posted on 12/09/2002 4:10:05 AM PST by Imal
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To: Cicero
The United states was built from the bottom up, by the consent of the people. Europe is being built from the top down, on a very shaky foundation.

Good point, thats why they are using bread and circus's for the time being , whent they crack down on all the liberalism thats when the sheeple wake up and realize they just lost their liberty.
39 posted on 12/09/2002 4:17:47 AM PST by John Lenin
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To: Tailgunner Joe; All
Does this mean that they will all lose their votes in the UN and there will be just one EU vote ...

... or does this mean that each of our 50 states will be given seats in the UN (and in the security council)?
40 posted on 12/09/2002 4:33:09 AM PST by BlueLancer
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To: Tax-chick
I lumped all of that under "liberal attitudes". But you are correct in identifying that as a major contributing cause.
41 posted on 12/09/2002 5:43:54 AM PST by nwrep
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To: Prodigal Son
I hate to say it, but here in Munich the picture IS bleak.
42 posted on 12/09/2002 5:44:18 AM PST by MissouriForBush
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To: Tailgunner Joe
bump
43 posted on 12/09/2002 7:28:35 AM PST by Sam Cree
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To: quebecois
You're exactly right. I've not met many people in Europe who even like the idea of the EU other than the common currency, and that's from traveling in 11 of the countries since the advent of the Euro.

The pro-EU leaders are stacking the deck against the citizens of Europe. The people are being made to vote repeatedly on issues of conceding power to the EU. Last year, Ireland rejected by overwhelming numbers an expansion of the EU to include Turkey. That vote was effectively nullified when the issue came up for a vote again this year. The outright propaganda aimed at the uninformed led to the expansion's passage on the second time around. Had the issued failed this year, no doubt it would have come up for another vote next year, and every year after until it did pass.

EU expansion is a battle of attrition. Those who disagree are being steamrolled and exhausted into conceding.

44 posted on 12/09/2002 7:36:16 AM PST by tdadams
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To: BlueLancer
Does this mean that they will all lose their votes in the UN and there will be just one EU vote ...

... or does this mean that each of our 50 states will be given seats in the UN (and in the security council)?

Exactly. This is going to be a big issue pretty soon. It could effectively be the thing that makes us withdraw from the UN. In no way can anybody claim it is fair that as the EU inches inevitably nearer to becoming one nation they should keep all their UN votes as well. We should either get 50 or they should get one.

This will surely have huge ramifications. The UK and France are both permanent members of the UN Security Council. One can easily see the thorny problems that raises for those two nations. Would they be both ejected from the Council? Surely you couldn't say the EU should be a permanent member when Germany was never allowed to be- this would upset the whole original intent of "permanent member status".

There are many other thorny issues as well. Despite all our differences with Europe, they are still more or less part of what we refer to as "Western Culture". If suddenly the two biggest bastions of Western Culture had only two whole votes between them (US and EU), it is not too hard to imagine that the Islamic world would soon band together and vote to transfer all our technology over to the Arabic states and the African nations would vote to take our wealth.

I've given this quite a bit of pondering and I firmly believe something very good will come out of the EU- the dissolution of the UN. Seriously. This would make a good topic of further discussion on a thread by itself.

45 posted on 12/09/2002 2:32:56 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Witness the extraordinary fact that European Union law exists prior to the existence of the European Union state.

EEC law started in 1950. Economic solidarity is inseparable from political solidarity.

46 posted on 12/09/2002 2:40:48 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: muawiyah
Europe has this multicentury history of almost constant war except for the last 57 years under American domination.

There's good and bad in that. Bad because the last time they brawled, they shoved a lot of innocent people into ovens. Good because Western arms and military organization were developed in that shark tank called Europe over the span of a few hundred years, and proved so successful that most militaries worldwide attempt to pattern themselves along those lines.

47 posted on 12/09/2002 2:49:49 PM PST by adx
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Fortunately, there will still be a Switzerland.
48 posted on 12/09/2002 2:57:54 PM PST by BlazingArizona
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To: Demidog
American involvement in "war" has mostly been in somebody else's country. European involvement in "war" has mostly been in their own country.

Then there's their "spillovers" into even more places.

49 posted on 12/09/2002 3:12:40 PM PST by muawiyah
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