Afghanistan vets criticize M-9 reliability, lethality

Stars and Stripes ^ | 20 December 2002 | Mark Oliva

[ASA Vet]

Earlier this century

Would that have been in 2001?

[ASA Vet]

If the m9 is so bad all come it defeated all the others in testing.
It is no worse then the others and better then a lot

I don't believe the complaints are about the pistol its self, as it is a sound design,
but rather the underpowered euroweenie caliber forced on us.
The competitive tests were of various companies models all
chambered for the 9mm, in order to throw a bone to the euroweenies.

[wildbill]

The problem may be in the fact that the ammunition required by the Geneva Convention requies a non-expandable full metal jacket. No dum-dums allowed.

[185JHP]

There was a thing in NATO to back up the choice of the 9mm - "Rationalization, Standardization, Interoperability." Same caliber other militaries use, blah, blah, blah. But facts are stubborn things, and as was learned when the Moros were shot with .45s, they are reliable fight-stoppers. And anyone who can't shoot a .45 accurately shouldn't be in a job requiring carrying a pistol. That includes women and girly-men.

[harpseal]

The Diallo shooting occurred in New York City and the police there carry full metal jacket rounds because politicians there decided that hoolow point rounds inflicted too much damage on an human being. Of course they ignored the fact that FMJ rounds are more likely to over pentrate and go on to hit an innocent bystander.

Ignorant people setting policy.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[Chapita]

I've carried both the .45 ACP Colt and the Browning Hi-Power 9mm. I have all necessary confidence in both!I use light weight, expanding bullets because of the recoil and reacquisition-time on target. Loaded right, both do what they are intended to do!

[harpseal]

The final decision to adopt the Beretta was also very much influenced by the desire to base Pershing Missles in Italy and such would be much easier to negotiate if Beretta an Italian company recieved the contract for the new US Pistol in 1991.

The logic behind the choice of the Beretta was that as a self defense weapon it made sense to use the 9mm becuase the average warsaw pact troop would not continue to fight if wounded by one per the Wermacht experience in WWII. Now the US experience with the Moro's in the Phillipines following the Spansih American war pretty much discredited the .38 cal round of the day (even less powerful than the .38spl) Moros shot did not drop but those shot with the older .45 Colt round dropped.

As a result of this experience the US Army called for designs for a new .45 caliber pistol. Designs were submitted by Colt (John Browning's auto pistol), Savage, and Georg Luger. Tests were then conducted on samples of these pistols. One of the .45 cal Luger pistols that was submitted for testing disappeared after the tests if anyone finds it please Freep-mail me and we will sell it split the profits and bothe be millionaires.

In any case John Moses Browning's design won the competion and the contract. The result was the model 1911. following WWI some minor design changes resulted in the Model 1911-A1 which is what most people think of as the traditional military sidearm. I note the original pistol design was for .38acp. I further note that John Moses Browning subsequently designed the Hi-Power in 9mm Luger. A number of companies have subsequently come out with variations on this later design in .45acp.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[185JHP]

Thanks. BTW do you know the trick where you grab a Beretta pointed at you and take the top off of it? I know a guy who teaches CCW classes and demonstrates the technique - "nonplussed" is a good description of the guy who's now holding something that won't shoot. FReegards

[harpseal]

I am familiar with the trick but not proficient with it. My response to the person pointing a beretta at me is rapid fire of 185 gr silver tip hollow points hitting the target in the thorax and cranium. It seems a whole lot more reliable to me.

For a 9mm my favorite is a CZ-75 but I sledom carry anything other than my 10 shot .45acp.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[harpseal]

Once more if anyone has that .45acp Luger from the tests please please contact me we will both make a fortune the one that is know sold about 15 years ago for over a million and what price the second would bring now is only to be guessed.

One other point. While the .45acp was designed to stop with ball ammunition a hollowpoint round such as the 185gr sthp will usually give a better chance of a one shot stop. The problem is many 1911 style pistols have a problem feeding hollow points. Some of the new designs do not need the adjustment the many 1911's require to reliably feed such hollow points.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed

[harpseal]

I too have carried a 9mm and a .45acp, I have also had occaision to use both in combat situations and have survived those situations (admittedly many years ago). The 9mm allows one to carry more ammunition for teh same weight which can be a vital consideration. Sometimes most of the weight one will carry will not be firearms but some other equipment such as explosives and comm gear.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[185JHP]

I lke cranio-ocular shots, too. A low miss, you might hit the spine. The brain has 30-45 seconds of blood in it, after the heart stops. CNS hit = game over. Silver tips are fine bullets. If you shoot a water-filled soda can with a .357 Silvertip, the can explodes, and it's like a special effect - it looks like the can disappeared. Stay well & safe.

[Travis McGee]

Given a choice between a pistol or two extra 30 round mags of 5.56mm, it's a no brainer.

[Travis McGee]

What's the 10 shot 45 you carry?

[yarddog]

Several of my loading manuals have the formula but it is easier to just use the table in the Speer manual.

Interestingly I have gone to the trouble of calculating the energy by the formula and it often varies by a foot pound or two from the table.

[yarddog]

I like them both too.

The .45 auto fits my hand well but the Browning HP feels like it were designed just for my particular hand. Put a set of Hogue grips on the Browning and you improve on perfection.

For some unknown reason, the Browning HP has always been easier for me to hit with despite its only fair trigger.

[yarddog]

You are dead on right about the Beretta grip being too large. In fact it is one of the worst feeling grips, at least to me personally.

Despite that, I do like the pistol. I bought one of the first ones to be imported. It had the old frame mounted safety and mag release on the bottom left of the grip frame. I actually like it better than the later ones.

[Batrachian]

So I like to live in the past.

[strela]

The 9mm is just a .45 set on "stun."

Line of the Day. Beautiful (all the more so because it is true).

[Jimmy Valentine's brother]

“I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds."

That's what I call gun control.

There's been complaints about the stopping power of the M-16 in Afghanistan as well. I suspect that the 9mm and the 5.23mm are easier on the ladies.

It's worth noting that the FBI SWAT teams carry the 45 cal.