Afghanistan vets criticize M-9 reliability, lethality

Stars and Stripes ^ | 20 December 2002 | Mark Oliva

[SevenDaysInMay]

RE: .40S&W - There seems to be little if any discussion of this as an effective military calibre. For winter clothed urban Hxxx Sxxx CQB moments, .40 is far better than the 9 and nearly as good as the .45. 12+1 in such as a Sig P229 intermediate to 15+1 in full sized pistol makes far more sense, and the girls can avoid the man's .45 issues.

[R. Scott]

“that it was because the women in our AF found the .45 ACP too large for their hands, too much recoil, etc?”

Prior to the adoption of the 9 mm, I saw some of the smaller women carrying .38 revolvers. The propaganda (excuse me, “reasons”) put out by officials was that the 9 mm carried more rounds, and that the .45 was old and outdated – we needed something newer and more “high-tech” and accurate.
I used to teach .45 handgun marksmanship at our company – we had a couple dozen Warrants as well as the Commissioned Officers who needed to qualify with the pistol. After a block of instruction and qualification, none complained about the accuracy of the .45, none complained about the recoil, and all praised it.
The real reasons seems to be that all ammo was to go to NATO standard, and the Europeans used 9 mm – but the Europeans have always considered the officers' sidearm more of a badge than a weapon. I would rather carry a pistol with 6 rounds that meant 6 knockdowns, than carry a pistol with 15 rounds than meant maybe 3 or 4 knockdowns at best.

[SevenDaysInMay]

Kenetic energy in ft# = mass in grains * velocity squared / 450240 (a magic constant)

A bullet's frontal area, mass, and velocity "knockdown power" is a better indicator of a show stopper than K.E. At coffee:30 this morning I can't remember the official K.P. name and equation.

As with many other important activities in life, putting your target down with full penetration is most gratifying. I miss those occasional "triple taps" of my misspent youth.

[ASA Vet]

So I like to live in the past.

Me too, just not quite so far.
And there always seems to an educated rectum around to nit pick. ;o)

[RKV]

Thus endeth the lesson. Fast is good, but its the first hit that counts (particularly so with a stopper round like the .45 ACP). A trained opponent will let you shoot around him or near him all day long and setup to kill you while you are spraying and praying.

Have tried the Paraordinance .45 DA? I enjoyed shooting it quite a bit, and the DA trigger was great. Has the same problem as the Beretta, though, a big grip.

[Teacher317]

LOL!

[Teacher317]

As with many other important activities in life, putting your target down with full penetration is most gratifying. I miss those occasional "triple taps" of my misspent youth.

LOL, I'm feeling guilty because I'm almost jealous. Well, here's to hoping I never need to find out how gratifying it is, and that making nice groupings at the range with my Kimber .45 ACP will be enough. But it is comforting for this novice to know that most here agree that the hollowpoints that I carry have good stopping power.

(hehe... "flying anvils"... I like that, IronJack!)

[harpseal]

I carry an EAA Witness tactical. 10 shots single and double action a 4 lb trigger single action an incredibly smooth DA trigger, Electroless nickle coating, 1911 style safety lever, ported. I saw it in a catalog and had my local merchant of death order me one. Total cost with al the above under $450 icluding sales tax. There is no grip safety and the lines of the grip are almost like a high power's lines. It is originally manufactured by Tanfoglio of Italy and the piece will feed empty resized cartridges if that is the bext in the magazine so every hollow point round one can imagine is good fodder for it.

It required a magazine break in for each magazine of about 250 rounds. Occaisional jams from failure to feed even hardball at first usually when the magazine had 9 or ten rounds in it. Once a magazine is bvroken in it is perfect in reliability. when I am having a good day I can get a 1 inch group at 25 yards with it. I note that I can reliably state it is neither the gun nor ammunition that gives me worse days at the range.

I started carrying it over my Kimber and several other 1911's. It does not experience any corrosion even here in a salt water envirornment. I think it would take a diamond to scratch the electroless nickle as it is a finish that was developed for use on offshore oil rigs.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[Bob]

Of course they [NY politicians] ignored the fact that FMJ rounds are more likely to over pentrate and go on to hit an innocent bystander.

Ignorant people setting policy.

Good point. Thanks for the info. I just couldn't imagine that a cop wouldn't want to carry the best round available.

[harpseal]

If you are carrying .45acp hollowpoints instead of flying anvils you are carrying flying ashtrays that become dinner plates.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[Teacher317]

Ah. What would be an improvement? Again, I am a novice who just happens to have a wonderful FReeper fiancee (she bought the pricey Kimber), and a range membership (practicing about twice per month). All I want is to be able to permanently drop a PCP-mad jackal (basically a human freight train) with a well-placed series of shots (center of mass: 2 to the body, one to the head?).

[Batrachian]

Educated rectum? Who would that be?

[btcusn]

Your statement almost killed a American.
Damn near died laughing.
Great Line!!!
Jack
PS, I carry a govt model, and my 90 lb wife carries a Kimber Compact, and shoots it well.

[yarddog]

I have never owned one of the Tanfoglio clones of the CZ but have played with several.

Some of the more expensive pistols could certainly learn from these gun's double action triggers. They are all really good. If they can do it why can't the others? The Beretta is a really fine pistol but the double action is always heavy.

BTW have you ever tried the trigger on a pre-war Nambu? Probably the smoothest single action trigger ever put on a production gun although not always crisp.

[Polybius]

It's funny how history repeats itself. Earlier this century our boys had trouble stopping Moro tribesmen in the Phillipines with their .38 Colts, which led the military to adopt a .45 later on, and now our boys are having trouble knocking down Muslims in Afghanistan with their 9mm's (also a .38, sort of). Assuming there is any truth to these stories, that is.

They are true. Everything old is new again.

[harpseal]

I am not sure there is anythinbg better than a Kimber stoked with hollow points. A 45acp hollow point will cuase more tissue diruption than even the best hardball ammunition and if your Kimber feeds them reliably you have one of the best personal defense sidearm/ammunition combinations a person could have. I doubt there is any better chance of a one shot stop unless one has a short barreled shotgun.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[harpseal]

Your fiancee sounds wonderful by the way. Hopefully she is with you at the range for that twice a month target practice. There are times when you can not be with you and she should be able to also reliably stop an insane human freight train.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[harpseal]

The only real problem with most of the Tanfoglio clones was they used to be chambered only in 9mm and .41AE. Now there are .40S&W and .45acp clones out there. I own several exellent .45acp's and I often take them to the range. My Kimber CDP is one that I truly love. however, being a frugal New Englander I found an inexpensive .45acp which fits my hand perfectly has almost zero recoil due to the porting which is super acuurate and able to take the abuse a sidearm gets being on my person in a very salty envirornment (winter de-icing salt and salt water and spray both where I live and when I am aboard my boat).

Now my Kimber is admittedly a prettier gun and more than double the price of my Tanfoglio. I do not like surface scratches and even stainless steel will suffer from prolonged exposure to a salt envirornment further there is always teh issue of holster wear.

Stay well - Stay safe - Staya rmed - Yorktown

[harpseal]

BTW have you ever tried the trigger on a pre-war Nambu? Probably the smoothest single action trigger ever put on a production gun although not always crisp.

No I have only fired one Nambu and it had a miserable trigger.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - yorktown

[Travis McGee]

Thanks, I'm going to check it out. Does it have a massive gorrilla grip with a double stack .45 mag?