Posted on 01/03/2003 4:22:58 AM PST by The Duke
All ROE is strict. I was emphasizing the need to follow ROE - they are orders, not suggestions to lightly set aside.
Let's suppose there was a AAA site with a couple of 57s pumping out rounds. Altitude + horizonatal distance = slant range. At their altitude, moving 2 miles should have put them outside of the horizontal range. At 540 kts, that would take 13 seconds. By the time they saw the AAA & made their radio call, they were out of range - even if there were big guns firing.
In addition, it was night. Turn out your position lights (they did), and no one on the ground will see you. There are no claims of radars - so there was no aimed fire.
Self defense trumps ROE - but ends the moment the immediate threat has been dealt with. In this case, turning out your lights and flying for 10-15 seconds deals with the threat. Now it is no longer self-defense. It is retaliation. Track the folks with your pod and check. Why?
Possibilities:
1. Good guys training.
2. Good guys engaging bad guys.
3. Bad guys shooting in the air.
4. Wedding celebration by civilians.
In one of the 4 possibilities, dropping immediately is an advantage. In 3 of the possibilities, dropping immediately is a crime. Those are bad odds for dropping immediately.
I'll admit this is a pet peeve of mine. In the 80s, we were trained to think. If you are lit up by a radar in clear air, do you dump your ordanance & tanks and do a GLIB 2 (the way an F-15E did over Iraq)? NO - otherwise the bad guys can disarm a hundred planes by firing up one radar site. Do you respond because you see a missile trail? NO - because the missile may not be on you. Is there movement on the canopy? If not, react. If so, it isn't going after you (not a player of course for an SA-8 or other short range missile). I've seen 8 HARMs fired in Iraq for no earthly reason by guys who don't seem to understand this isn't a game. That's why, when I was the package commander, I emphasized discipline and ROE. Drop at the wrong time, and you can kill good guys or give the bad guys a propoganda coup (consider a rushed drop hitting a school or hospital - which the bad guys DO position close to their SAMs and AAA).
If the guy who dropped was a 1LT, I'd call it an accident and blame the flight lead. These guys had a ton of experience - so they have no excuse. At their experience, this should be instinctive. And the guys on the ground SHOULD be able to count on our professionalism!
Actually, once they stop shooting at you, self defense no longer applies. Therefor, you take the time to make sure your retaliation is appropriate. For example, in Iraq we would double check for civilians in the area. Or check to make sure friendlies hadn't just engaged bad guys (to answer another pooint you made). It costs nothing to wait 2-3 minutes. You can monitor the troops on the ground, make sure no friendlies are nearby, make sure no civlians are having a wedding celebration (happens in Afghanistan) - and then stomp 'em good! In this case, a delay of less than 2 minutes would have suffice. Being aggressive is good; being smart is better!
No radar, but who cares? I mean, surely, you must know that most all (over 80%) of our aircraft losses in VN were due to unaimed AAA.
In Vietnam, they flew low level. At 30K feet, it requires barrage AAA from big guns to have an effect. And that effect is limited to within a couple of miles of the ground site. Again, they were not under immediate danger - and we owe the guys on the ground a chance for a double check.
If you are lit up by a radar in clear air, do you dump your ordinance & tanks and do a GLIB 2 (the way an F-15E did over Iraq)?
What? What example are you referring to?
Happened during the summer of 99 over norther Iraq. Actually, the F-15E continued to guide the bomb it had already dropped (did a great job in that!) while dropping tanks and doing a GLIB 2 in response to a missile fired - fired from a LONG way away. The missile was unguided and IMHO was an SA-2 - I could see the trail & I was probably 35 miles away. But we were taught in the 80s not to over-react by dropping ordanance early - something a few guys I knew did the first couple of days of Desert Storm until they learned better.
I've seen 8 HARMs fired in Iraq for no earthly reason by guys who don't seem to understand this isn't a game.<<
Perhaps they did understand it isn’t a game and they wanted to a) kill the SAMs before they were killed
Actually, QC'ing their shot would have revealed the radar site was at twice the range of a HARM. I was in a Navy Prowler at the time, and DIDN'T shoot because the only thing I saw was grossly out of range. (The Prowler has pee-poor ranging, but the unusual radar parameters matched a known site a LONG way away). In debrief, other platforms confirmed no radars were operating anywhere close. For the remainder of the mission, I was the only one with a HARM left in the AOR.
What squadron used WSO's as a package commander?
In peacetime, both F-4G & F-111 squadrons used to. I was too young while in WW, but did a few Red Flags in 111s. In combat, I've got to admit I only was package commander while flying in a Navy Prowler squadron. I've got no idea if F-15Es allow WSOs to be package commanders - if not, the Mud Hens are screwing up. It is easier to keep track of things as a WSO than as a pilot who needs to fly the jet.
Many of these WSOs make fine WSOs, but some are a true study in anger and envy. Let's just leave that out.
Agreed. When DeBellvue (sp?) came back from Vietnam & was forced to become a pilot, the folks I knew who flew with him said he was pissed - that he remained a great WSO & a pee-poor pilot. Personally, I've been a pretty damn good WSO (I find it easy to switch between 2-dimensional radars and 3-dimensional reality), but I would have sucked as a pilot. The skills are different, and not always interchangable.
We will likely never see eye-to-eye on this
I'm sure this is true - but I've enjoyed the exchange! Best wishes to you. I've just accepted the new nav bonus, so I'm in for at least 4 more years...
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