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China's position on North Korea and their strategic goals for Asia (China) (Korea)
my brain | maui_hawaii

Posted on 01/09/2003 8:59:42 PM PST by maui_hawaii

A recent article found here made the wheels turn in my head.

I have not spent the time to research this specific theory, hence I am writing off the cuff.

What are China’s long term strategic goals? What do they fear? What is the nature of Chinese leadership? Who runs China and how? Why do they do what they do in regards to North Korea?

{map}

Historically China has been run by a faction of one sort of another. Those factions had/have their fundamental ways of thinking that brought them to power. In China’s case, it was the lure of Communism, as well as anti-West and anti-Japanese thinking. Now they are trying to hang on to power. When I speak here I want to emphasize the utter importance of thinking. It is the core, fundamental foundation of thinking that brought them to power. That foundation of thinking is being challenged namely by US influence of creating open societies with free presses, etc. China is antagonized by the US because we do things differently that they see as threatening to their power.

Thinking is why the Chinese police the internet. That is why they squash dissent. There is a core fundamental theory that must remain intact for the CCP to remain in power. And, absolutely NO, it is not hardcore communism. Really it is not. It has nothing to do with Communism as we know it. Even despite all of the changes in China, their core beliefs are largely unchanged. Communist economics is only a small, increasingly insignificant side issue. They can run and economy, and stay in power. They will merely own the businesses. They will just be rich rulers instead of just rulers.

China had to reinvent itself. And it has, or is in the process. But its core fundamental beliefs have not changed, despite its economic changes. The nature of the regime has not changed.

China sees Asia as being led around in American thinking. That is why they demonize America so much despite the fact that America historically participated very little in China's past problems (opium wars etc). The differing "faction" is why this is not a problem with Taiwan, but it is with China. It is differing party beliefs just like party differences between liberals and conservatives.

Particularly this 'being led by Americanism' is the case with Japan, as well as Taiwan. South Korea is also on their list. They see this American thinking as a whole new set of philosophies and hence it challenges their grip on power. It is a threat to their very regime. It is not economics. It is something else. It is no different really than liberal democrat ideas being shoveled out the door at the hands of a republican win. Can you imagine the emotion of hardcore democrats? That’s the feel, only more angry and demonizing not toward a party, but toward America. There is a struggle for the minds of the people of China. That is what it boils down to.

China’s history with North Korea goes back a long time. North Korea is an old friend. The difference is, China’s ruling faction has evolved in order to maintain its grip on power. North Korea is China 25-30 years back.

With North Korea China sees longer term prospects for breaking the American “stranglehold” in Asia. They want N. Korea to open as China has opened, but maintain its party control. They want them to maintain their ideological basis.

In the process of that, N. Korea opening will project, over the long term, “soft power” in China’s behalf. (soft power= ideological beliefs). China and N. Korea are not ideological cousins, more like siamese twins. You can see the action in that there is pressure to ‘turn’ South Korea. I would not be a bit surprised if the Korean ‘sunshine policy’ was founded in Beijing.

The survival of the N. Korea regime is key to China’s long term strategy. Otherwise China will be even more isolated in the world. China does not want N. Korea to rock the boat because they know it will not survive. If it does not survive, China’s struggles to ideologically insulate itself from foreign thought will be frustrated. This is why China is willing to say things like ‘nuclear free Koreas’. They know this boat rocking will elicit a response and adds to the barriers for projecting ‘soft power’ (aka non American, even anti American thought) in Asia. North Korea’s brinkmanship is a threat to China’s plan.

China was showing the leaders of North Korea around trying to impress them with economic opening. They were doing so because it is in China’s interests to do so. For the regime in China to itself not crumble it must project soft power and insulate itself from “American” thinking. (“American” does not mean American, although that is how it is labeled.)

China though expresses its own set of frustrations at North Korea for its brinkmanship. It also expresses frustration over North Korea’s doggedly not adapting and accepting reforms.

Anyway, I have a lot of thoughts on this. It would take all night to compose them all. I hope you can gain the gist of what I have tried to portray. In short, it is all statesmanship. It is Chinese statecraft


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: chinastuff; clashofcivilizatio; zanupf
we must be careful how we interpret what the Chinese say and do, and why they do what they do.
1 posted on 01/09/2003 8:59:42 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: soccer8; Enemy Of The State; tallhappy; belmont_mark; Brian Allen
bump this and comment.
2 posted on 01/09/2003 9:00:50 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii

Do the math donating to FR today is the Smart thing to do!


3 posted on 01/09/2003 9:01:09 PM PST by chance33_98 (Praise the Lord and pass the donations!)
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To: spetznaz; Jeff Head; lavaroise; swarthyguy; RightWhale; El Gato
bump
4 posted on 01/09/2003 9:03:51 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: JohnHuang2
comment?
5 posted on 01/09/2003 9:08:27 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: *China stuff; *china_stuff; *Clash of Civilizatio
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
6 posted on 01/09/2003 9:11:12 PM PST by The Obstinate Insomniac
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To: maui_hawaii
I believe the Chinese could end this tomorrow by making a few phone calls to senior NK generals to communicate that Kim has to go. That they do not do this means that Kim's actions are OK with them. Red China gains from a divided Korea. The crazier NK is, the more reasonable the ChiComs appear to be. Always remember--the PRC is not an ally, not a friend. They are our chief rival in the world.
7 posted on 01/09/2003 9:12:27 PM PST by maro
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To: maro
Red China gains from a divided Korea.

I think China wants a unified Korea... ruled under their brand of thinking or at the very least, not so gung ho pro American.

Always remember--the PRC is not an ally, not a friend. They are our chief rival in the world.

Exactly, and exactly the point of my essay.

8 posted on 01/09/2003 9:19:09 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maro
I believe the Chinese could end this tomorrow by making a few phone calls to senior NK generals to communicate that Kim has to go. That they do not do this means that Kim's actions are OK with them.

I would be inclinded to disagree.

China wants to win the war, not just one battle...against America. There is no guarantee they could even win the battle even.

They are biding their time.

9 posted on 01/09/2003 9:22:10 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii
Oh, no, they are much more practical people than this. It is not ideology, nor wanting another country (rather than province?) that agrees with them. They could annex the place tomorrow if they wanted to. But it is more useful to them as a "renegade" proxy than it would be as part of China - even though they would certainly govern it better than the present regime does (not exactly hard).

No, see, they want NK for arms length plausible denial when they want to do something that cannot be defended in public, without taking the heat for it or compromising relations (especially trade) with the west. If they want to send missile or nuclear tech to somebody, they just give a nod and pass it through NK. If they want to kidnap people or blow up airliners, the NKs do it, the Chinese say they are against it but do nothing to rein in NK.

If they want to lob missile over Japan, or hold people up for monetary tribute, they let their proxy do it. If they ever want to fire a nuke at the US, or smuggle one here, or sell one to Islamic terrorists, they won't do it direct and risk a return address of "Peking" - they will let NK do it, providing whatever tech, support, money, diplomatic cover etc is actually required.

NK is simply a criminal front organization for China's illegitimate state interests. It works perfectly, too. They are sending NK technical materials right now to allow NK to extract plutonium from reactor fuel, thus directly furthering nuke proliferation. But nobody calls them on it, because they say one thing and do another. NK might get blamed - allow appeasement runs rampant even there - but nobody would dream of consequences for China for the present nuke flap. Why, they are so indispensable, after all. Can't possibly afford to upset them.

It is the simplest sort of indirection and dodge. The amazing thing is simply that there are people gullible enough to fall for it. Or bought enough. Or who prefer a Chicom win in the long run.

10 posted on 01/09/2003 9:22:21 PM PST by JasonC
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To: maui_hawaii
Lips and teeth bump.

Deniable sock puppet bump.

August 1998 NK threw a Taepodong over Japan--oops.

The 94 shuck and jive kept alive by Madeliene the Hutt.

Now comes the NK ambassador to try an end run around Richardson.

The local radio host said Richardson would take ambass to topless club; cohost said ambass brought golf clubs, would defect.

NK remains an accessory to China's four goals:

1) US out of Asia;
2) Absorption of SoKo;
3) Absorption of Taiwan;
4) Neutralized Japan.

Hu and Jiang have not "mellowed"; Communism is not being replaced by Capitalism.

China's fanatic nationalism is akin to the mental illness of Hitlerism.

Kim is coo-coo and Jiang's organ-grinder monkey--

While entertaining Uday Hussein, in on a salesman's road trip to cut a deal.

The 1984 mind control efforts of the ChiComs make it clear--they don't want no stinkin' democracy anywhere in the world.

11 posted on 01/09/2003 9:25:56 PM PST by PhilDragoo
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To: JasonC
No, see, they want NK for arms length plausible denial when they want to do something that cannot be defended in public, without taking the heat for it or compromising relations (especially trade) with the west. If they want to send missile or nuclear tech to somebody, they just give a nod and pass it through NK.

This is sort of true, but its more than that. What happens if the rest of Asia turns on N. Korea? Or N. Korea falls? China is thinking much longer terms.

They do want to do what you are talking about in the above sentence, but do it politically also. Not just militarily or otherwise.

War cannot be sustained forever, but political balance is what they want.

12 posted on 01/09/2003 9:28:12 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii
I've read other reports that China and NK are not so buddy-buddy. Millions of starving NK's stream into China at an alarming rate and this has caused recent "border incidents" with Chinese and North Korean soldiers.

China may be "egging" on the NK's but I doubt it goes any further than that.

13 posted on 01/09/2003 9:29:36 PM PST by stuck_in_new_orleans
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To: PhilDragoo
see post 12.

Deniable sock puppet bump.

Politically they don't want it ultimately to be 'deniable'. They want it to be real undeniable opposition to US influence.

NK remains an accessory to China's four goals:

1) US out of Asia; 2) Absorption of SoKo; 3) Absorption of Taiwan; 4) Neutralized Japan.

Not all that different from what I am talking about. In fact, right on the money. That doessum it all up.

They are not seeking to do so via straight forward military confrontation though. That is the difference.

14 posted on 01/09/2003 9:32:18 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: stuck_in_new_orleans
I categorize those things as minor short term issues in China's hopes for the big picture.

Yeah, it is true. There are some conflicts here and there.

China though wants to use N. Korea to their advantage, but N. Korea is not playing along as China would like.

15 posted on 01/09/2003 9:35:15 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: kattracks
comments?
16 posted on 01/09/2003 9:39:41 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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bump for later reading
17 posted on 01/09/2003 9:47:18 PM PST by Aaron_A
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To: maui_hawaii
Two more things to throw into the discussion:

1. Russia's relationship with N. Korea remain close, even with the Soviets out of power.

2. More importantly, S. Korea is China's number 3 trading partner. Whatever their strategy is, they need to safeguard their relationship with the South.

My personal theory: The CCP knows that its hold on power is based on maintaining the economy. An unstable Korea hurts China's economy. They know that if the North does anything wild, they can kiss a major engine for economic growth good-bye.

The CCP's worst case scenario: the North violently imploding, taking out much of the South, and thousands of refugees streaming over the border.

Their best case scenario: Unified Korea, under an anti-American gov't. The way things are going in the South, that'll probably happen once Kim dies, or sooner. With a unified Korea the need for American troops there goes away. China would like to see that.

Personally, I think much of what happens in East Asia revolves around two factors:

1. What happens politcally in Taiwan. Will they roll over and accept unification, or eventually declare independance?

2. Japan increasing its stance as a military power.

China is actually in a bad position in both regards. Much of their strategy in the future will be re-active, rather than pro-active, in my opinion.

18 posted on 01/09/2003 10:04:54 PM PST by Kaiwen
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To: Kaiwen
Excellent post.

2. More importantly, S. Korea is China's number 3 trading partner. Whatever their strategy is, they need to safeguard their relationship with the South.

From my rant: You can see the action in that there is pressure to ‘turn’ South Korea.

Trade is just one more way to do so.

My personal theory: The CCP knows that its hold on power is based on maintaining the economy. An unstable Korea hurts China's economy. They know that if the North does anything wild, they can kiss a major engine for economic growth good-bye.

YES! Exactly.

Your post is very good and not all that off from what I am trying to say.

Especially like your worst and best case scenarios.

The Russia and Japan card have not been factored in. I was writing about the Chinese position...

China also knows N. Korea cannot have a good economy without US assistance.

19 posted on 01/09/2003 10:12:16 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: jlogajan; Eric in the Ozarks; Howlin; AmericanInTokyo; RCW2001
Please read the thread and add comments...
20 posted on 01/09/2003 10:16:03 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Kaiwen
China also knows N. Korea cannot have a good economy without US assistance.

Or US complacency...

21 posted on 01/09/2003 10:17:56 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: All
CHINA DEBATES the FUTURE SECURITY ENVIRONMENT
22 posted on 01/09/2003 10:24:45 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii
Very true. I think the Chinese made a major mistake by arresting N. Korea's pick (whose name espaces me--Chinese guy, Dutch citizenship?) to run the North's experimental special economic zone. That would have given the Chinese more influence on the North's economic development than either the South or the US. Instead, they got pissed beause they weren't informed beforehand, and blew it. Their loss.

With North Korea getting craizer by the day, I'm just glad Beijing is upwind of any fallout from the Korean Peninsula...

23 posted on 01/09/2003 10:28:49 PM PST by Kaiwen
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To: Kaiwen
an excerpt from above link

-------

fifty-year structures

One of the important premises on which Chinese assessments about the future security environment are based is the concept of "world structures" (zhanlue shijie geju). (134) This term is used to refer to the design of the world pattern, which, according to Chinese, generally exists for several decades before undergoing a major transformation. Each "world structure" is based on the organization and state of relations among the great nations in the world. The process by which one world strategic pattern gives away to another usually is a major war. One author writes, "A world pattern is the relatively stable international structure formed by the interrelations and interaction between the main forces in the world during a certain historical period. . . . The changes in the world pattern are based on the changes in the relations of the world's main contradictions, and they accompany international and social phenomena such as turbulence, division, alignment and crises, that result in conflicts and war." (135) The basic Chinese catechism identifies four major "world strategic patterns" during the past 200 years. One scholar at CICIR has put together a grid (table 2) illustrating characteristics of the world order in the 20th century.

(table is the link above)

The first world structure, called the "Vienna System" by the Chinese, lasted 40 to 50 years and was set up by the victorious nations who defeated Napoleon. These four powers (Russia, Austria, Prussia, and Britain) established a world structure that was centered entirely on Europe and characterized by mutual bargaining and the use of "spheres of influence" to preserve stability. The second structure, which also lasted 40 to 50 years, was created by internal events in Japan, Italy, Germany, and the United States that destroyed "the original proportions and distributions of strength" and in so doing broke out of the strategic configuration confined to Europe. (136) Although still centered on Europe, this new pattern also expanded to North America and Asia. Briefly, the major developments were the rapid advancement of capitalism in the United States after the Civil War, the Meiji Restoration in Japan, and the political unification of Italy, as well as the unification of Germany in 1870 and its defeat of France in the Franco-Prussian War in 1871.

The third world structure derived from the conduct of the powers that won World War I. In a manner similar to the creation of the Vienna System Pattern, the new Versailles System was established by the strong victorious powers (the United States, Britain, France, Italy, and Japan). As had occurred with the Vienna Conference after the Napoleonic Wars, the Paris Peace Conference of 1919 "redivided the world" and laid down the rules for the next "era." However, the October Revolution established the Soviet Union in this period and Moscow participated in the Versailles System, which "broke the pattern whereby imperialism ruled the whole world." (137) When discussing this era, several Chinese authors refer to it as the Versailles-Washington System, arguing that the three major treaties signed at the Washington Conference of 1921 played a major role in shaping the world structure of the time. (138)

The fourth world structure is known in China as the Yalta System, a name derived from the Yalta Summit involving the United States, Britain, and the Soviet Union in February 1945. Most Chinese claim this conference "carved out the spheres of influence in Europe and Asia for the United States and the Soviet Union." With respect to China, the Yalta Summit included Soviet recognition of "U.S. control over Japan," while the United States in turn "satisfied the Soviet Union's wishes to regain Sakhalin Island, enabled Outer Mongolia to become independent, and enlisted northeast China into the sphere of influence." (139) The Chinese state that the decline of British strength reduced its sphere of influence, so that the Yalta System actually established a world structure of two poles, Washington and Moscow, whose relationship largely determined world politics. The Yalta System endured until 1991, nearly 50 years. Because the core of the Yalta Agreement was the division of Europe and Germany into two parts, Chinese date the end of the Yalta System to the reunification of Germany in 1991. Although the Chinese say the Yalta System has "basically disintegrated," they recognize it continues in Northeast Asia in the division between North Korea and South Korea and in the unresolved territorial dispute between Moscow and Tokyo over the northern territories. There have been some Chinese references to the unresolved problem of Taiwan's sovereignty also being a part of the Yalta System because Taiwan's legal status was not resolved either at Yalta or the 1951 San Francisco Peace Conference.

Within a world structure there is also what is known as a world order (shijie zhixu), or the ways and means by which nations interact and deal with each other:

A world structure refers to a relatively stable international framework and strategic situation formed on the foundation of a certain power balance. A world order then refers to, on the basis of the world structure, the mechanisms and rules of the motion of international relations (such as handling international affairs and international contact). The two have both generalities (both take the power balance as their base) and differences (they do not adapt to one another; if the old structure collapses, the old order probably continues to exist). (140)

24 posted on 01/09/2003 10:35:14 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Kaiwen
Dutch decendent. Part Dutch from way back...

I would assume one scenario in the North's economic zone...It could have been not widely based enough into broad reforms. It was probably designed around a cop out, not a real economic reform and opening. Hence not good enough for the purposes of China.

25 posted on 01/09/2003 10:41:10 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: stuck_in_new_orleans
Oh, it goes further than than alright. They are aiding the NK nuclear program. They provide buckets of aid. Yes, they want to keep the populace more or less in place, and not have them all run away into China proper. But that is also something the governments of NK and China agree on - keeping the NK slaves on the farm. It is not like NK is willing to let them go - or like China welcomes them.
26 posted on 01/10/2003 7:15:09 AM PST by JasonC
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To: maui_hawaii
I believe that the PRC is using NK as its personal experiment station. Yes, NK is used to proliferate weapons and policies that would otherwise get China in trouble. However, the CCP can use NK as a guinea pig to test the US (and World's) reactions to a variety of scenarios (such as pulling out of non-proliferation acts, developement of nuke threats...etc).
Nevertheless, the CCP will start to sweat if they lose some control over NK and Kim starts making aggressive moves towards his neighbors triggering potential backlashes by Japan, SK, others as those backlashes could lead to closer US (particluarly military) relations. It could be a disaster for Beijing if Japan feels threatened enough to boost military spending and, worse, begin development of nuclear programs.
As a testing gound, the CCP can hone its political skills (especially while avoiding recourse by having NK's nutty leaders blamed for whacko decisions) and, as stated, formulate better tactics to establish their anti-west panacea (thereby creating a significant buffer against "American thingking"). If they succeed they would also create a significan stategic zone of influence. Of course, this is contingent on IF they can control NK's leadership and IF the people of NK don't revolt (hard for the starving to do?).
One last caveat is that the PRC could actaully benefit from NK's collapse. With a united Korea, and the current SK anti-american wave, why not tell the US troops to go home. So much for US influence on the border and the CCP would find it easier to project its 'soft power' into SK. If the CCP can effectively control the collapse (i.e. NK doesn't start invading the South or shooting nukes when the collapse occurs), it could certainly work out in their best interest.
27 posted on 01/10/2003 7:46:25 AM PST by batter
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To: maui_hawaii
>.America historically participated very little in China's past problems (opium wars etc).

The US was involved in the biggest civil war in the Chinese history, the KMT-CCP war.
28 posted on 01/10/2003 7:51:58 AM PST by Lake
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To: maui_hawaii
Great post. I'll need to come back to it later. One thing that jumped out at me was the comment about the PRC wanting an "opening up" albeit with party control. This is very interesting. In a way, is this not precisely (with the exception of ECONOMIC-only opening) the situation as it stood during the late 1940s vis a vis the Russians? In a way, I think that N. Korea as a hard proxy would be far more dangerous than they are now, from an overall geopolitical stand point. I will come back and go through this post again with further commentary later. Thanks!
29 posted on 01/10/2003 11:43:09 AM PST by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: maui_hawaii
BUMP>
30 posted on 01/10/2003 12:51:07 PM PST by swarthyguy (While America Slept)
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To: Lake
Again, it depends on how you define "China". Back then the KMT was THE government of China, and it was recognized as such. The CCP were back in the mountains somewhere plotting revolution. If that is the standard we shall use, I say we find the next set of revolutionaries that are out in the mountains now in 2003 and support them.

If you define "China" as being larger than any political party, what is wrong with America's presence? What were we there for? Hint: It wasn't to fight Communists. That came later.

We were there fighting the Japanese.

The problem with your thinking is that it assumes that only a Communist Party Chinese is a real Chinese.

You see, the CCP only cared that THEY ruled China. Nothing else mattered/s. They could care less about Japanese. The CCP were a bunch of lying two bit propagandists who never fought the Japanese they hate so much.

They were/are defining "China" around themselves and their party. America on the other hand was not.

31 posted on 01/10/2003 5:52:26 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Lake
Offending the Communist movement is one thing. Fighting to defend "China" is something else entirely.

You would have fit in to the Red Guards just fine with that kind of thinking.

32 posted on 01/10/2003 5:54:57 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: belmont_mark
In a way, I think that N. Korea as a hard proxy would be far more dangerous than they are now, from an overall geopolitical stand point.

EXACTLY.

33 posted on 01/10/2003 5:57:17 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Lake
Chinese history must have started in 1949... or maybe I should say 1920's...when the CCP was born...
34 posted on 01/10/2003 5:58:21 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: stuck_in_new_orleans
I've read other reports that China and NK are not so buddy-buddy. Millions of starving NK's stream into China at an alarming rate and this has caused recent "border incidents" with Chinese and North Korean soldiers. China may be "egging" on the NK's but I doubt it goes any further than that.

China and North Korea are not buddy buddy at all. They use each other in some respects, and struggle in others. The hand of the Chinese does not pull the string of the North Koreans, and if it did, they would have pulled back.

The sad fact of the matter is that China has lost a lot of influence over the NKs, and realize that they are playing with matches in a pool of gasoline. They'll wash their hands of them the minute things get dirty, but until then they'll try and keep them just barely afloat enough to be a thorn in our side.

35 posted on 01/10/2003 6:08:27 PM PST by Steel Wolf
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To: maui_hawaii
Offending the Communist movement is one thing. Fighting to defend "China" is something else entirely. You would have fit in to the Red Guards just fine with that kind of thinking.

No, that's just how they are different from us. America is not the Republicans or Democrats. The Republicans or Democrats are no more or less legitimate in power than out.

That is not true in China. China is the Communists, the Nationalist, the Qing, the Ming, the Manchu, the Han, whoever is running the country is the country. You can't oppose the government and not oppose the country.

I realize that sounds odd, but that's how its been for millenia.

36 posted on 01/10/2003 6:16:14 PM PST by Steel Wolf
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To: Steel Wolf
You are not breaking any news to me. I don't know how many times I have said it here on FR... the party is "China".
37 posted on 01/10/2003 6:22:25 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Steel Wolf
In that case though, China is a very young country... just over 50 years old...
38 posted on 01/10/2003 6:23:31 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Steel Wolf
You are very much on the right track though in your descriptions.
39 posted on 01/10/2003 6:25:14 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii
I brought that point up when I was in China a few years ago, talking to students there. One told me that America often acts rashly because we are a young country, and still think like we live in the Wild West. He was suprised our system was so stable, given the amount of bickering we do. "You Americans always criticize your government. We also enjoy the freedom to criticize your government. Just not our own."

(At this point, I jumped up and yelled 'Down with Clinton! Down with Clinton' and had them do it with me. We laughed, and I told them people do that all over America, and it's no big deal.)

I told him that the only reason our system works is that we criticize each other, or we'd have to fight about everything we disagreed upon. America may be a young nation, I pointed out, but it has one of the oldest governments on the planet, exactly because of this.

(I also pointed out subversively that their government would be as stable as ours, if they could tolerate the same dissent from their citizens that I showed earlier towards mine.)

All in all, I found them to be adequately aware and mostly supportive of how our government functions. They were very open to the idea of becoming more like us in a way that would not offend their government (good luck!) They had more knowledge of western life than I expected, but less political means to get there, too. Tiananmen really set back the democracy crowd there, and the few that will still talk about it don't know how to proceed.

40 posted on 01/10/2003 6:46:56 PM PST by Steel Wolf
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To: PhilDragoo
NK remains an accessory to China's four goals: 1) US out of Asia; 2) Absorption of SoKo; 3) Absorption of Taiwan; 4) Neutralized Japan. To which I add a fifth and the following prioritization of PRC goals: 1. Takeover of Taiwan 2. Getting US out of Asia 3. Neutralize Japan 4. Neutralize India 5. Absorption of South Korean thru North Korea
41 posted on 01/11/2003 11:29:06 AM PST by HighRoadToChina
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To: HighRoadToChina; maui_hawaii
Bill Richardson concluded "frank and candid" discussions with Ambassador Han, who assured Richardson North Korea does not wish to develop nuclear weapons.

During the "frank and candid" discussions, North Korea announced it is withdrawing from the nuclear nonproliferation agreement and called for "holy war" against America.

Riddle: How can an atheist nation conduct "holy" war?

Does this dovetail with Saddam saying last week that Iraq and other Arab countries should emulate North Korea's example?

Is this the ad campaign of the Faxes of Evil?

42 posted on 01/11/2003 9:47:22 PM PST by PhilDragoo
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To: Mike Darancette
bump this thread to you
43 posted on 01/11/2003 10:57:42 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: PhilDragoo
How can an atheist nation conduct "holy" war?

One simple answer, "Communism" is a form of Satanism. The roots of Marxism is grounded in the absolute hatred of God--Karl Marx was not an unbeliever of God, but rather one who believe in the existance of God more than a lot of religious people, hated God and wanted to get back at God--through a system that would create hell for God's children. And if we take a good look at history, Communism has done its job: killed over 100 million people.

Communism in China talks about forced "confessions", "rehabilation" of dead politicians, Mao's little bible, Mao as God, and on and on it goes.

So this "holy" war that NK talks about is a war of hell against the forces of freedom.
44 posted on 01/11/2003 10:59:03 PM PST by HighRoadToChina
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To: Dog Gone
bump this thread
45 posted on 01/12/2003 1:35:23 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii
I don't think there's much doubt that China enjoys the fact that North Korea is a thorn in the side of the west, but they are also a thorn in the side of China. If NK weren't always so belligerent, the US would have withdrawn the troops from the Korean peninsula years ago. In other words, NK is keeping the US directly involved and influential in the very part of the world where China seeks to expand its influence.

I think China's influence over NK is also widely overestimated. The fact is that NK is a cult. It's more stalinist than Stalin ever was, and the Chinese economic model is quite different today from NK. About all you can say is that both have repressive governments that dominate their citizens. NK's is communist, while China has shifted gears and become fascist. Neither is conducive to dissent from their populations.

But what does China really want? I can't imagine that they're thrilled with nuclear bombs in the hands of nuts across their shared border. Nor do they want a united Korea that is pro-western. Ideally, I think they'd prefer the current situation to be defused diplomatically, and for unification to occur on terms that would eliminate US influence.

The surprising thing is that this is what was about to happen before NK started its uranium enhancement project. The SK sunshine policy was well underway, and even Japan was taking great steps toward normal relations.

Anti-Americanism was on the rise in SK, and all this was fitting into the Chinese goals for reduced US influence, and greater Chinese influence.

But the kooks running the NK government upset all that.

46 posted on 01/12/2003 2:05:31 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone
So you agree with my post then.

Good reply BTW.

47 posted on 01/12/2003 2:14:33 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: HighRoadToChina
One simple answer, "Communism" is a form of Satanism.

In every instance, Communism mocks God with its variant of "Thou shalt have no other God before Me."

As with the Nazi swastika, the red star or hammer and sickle are icons of authoritarianism.

As you note, the Black Book of Communism has placed the number of sacrifices at 100,000,000.

The mountain of two million Cambodian skulls is nothing if not Satanic.

Now comes the alliance of Kim Jong Il with Saddam Hussein, two representatives of the cult of personality.

How ironic that Saddam Hussein's idol is Stalin.

The Stalinist Kim calls for "Holy War" against America the week after the Stalinist Saddam called upon Iraqis to "follow the North Korean example".

Nazis swore "we believe there is a God and Adolf Hitler is his chosen savior"--now in Iraq and North Korea such bodacity is the wet on the fish.

Following Unrestricted Warfare, being the observations of two PLA colonels re the vulnerability of the Great Hegemon to asymmetricality, China exploits every antiAmerican eddy in the world current.

Mao rode high on his ego, and his book was number one for hundreds of weeks.

But he was just another warlord.

Read, gang-banger.

Now the Jiang-banger intends to pull the strings, and Hu will say him nay?

Along with "God is not mocked" is an old Jewish saying,

Man thinks; God laughs.

48 posted on 01/12/2003 4:41:24 PM PST by PhilDragoo
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To: PhilDragoo
It's interesting that you mentioned about the Nazi swastika, because Satanism has to do with the reversing of the natural "flow" or order of things. The Nazi swastika is acutally the reverse of the Tibetan "swastika" that one sees on statues of Buddhas and has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years--except and a big except, the direction of the Nazi swastika is the reverse (clockwise) of the Tibetan one (counterclockwise). Just as the Satanic pentagram is an upside-down version of the 5-pointed star. If you ever take a good look at a picture of Karl Marx with his rediculous big beard, he looks like an upside-down person. Again, doing everything backwards.

That is the number one reason why Communism and its socialism counterpart must be defeated at all costs.
49 posted on 01/12/2003 5:05:00 PM PST by HighRoadToChina
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To: maui_hawaii
The Iraq/N Korea crises is another China plot against the USA. Let’s look at the chain of events in these few years. Either by design or just coincidence, the 9/11 attack on America is a master plan conceived by China. Actually, the war plan was first published on a book titled “Unrestricted War” (a.k.a. Asymmetric Warfare) written by two Chinese Colonels (Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui) of the People’s Liberation Army. Published three years before the bombing of the World Trade Center, the military manual clearly outlined such attack on WTC and frequently mentioned Osama bin Laden. Who has heard of bin Laden three years before 9/11? And, in China? China is known for keeping anything remotely military under secret. Why do they publish this book and put it on public sale all over China? Could it be just an alibi so that China can innocently claim: “We published this book just for fun but Osama bought it on the newsstand. Too bad.” Do you believe the link between 9/11 and China is pure coincidence? (A CIA translated English edition is available from newsmaxstore.com or amazon.com)

China’s plan was to weaken America both militarily, economically and, most of all, to diminish America’s political muscle as a superpower. When America attacked Afghanistan, China’s blueprint was to help the Taliban and al Qaeda to prolong the war to further drain America’s strength and to bog America down in an endless military conflict in the Middle East so that China can have a free hand in Asia. Fortunately, the Afghan war didn’t work out that way. But, only this time...

All these hostilities are not only directed towards America and her people. To put it more exactly, they are targeted at President Bush. Still reminiscing the good old days when they have a Democratic President in the White House which doubles as a Chinese mole. Convinced that they cannot bribe Bush like they did with the ex-Traitor-in-Chief Clinton, China’s top priority is to remove President Bush and/or to guarantee that he doesn’t get reelected in the second term. Even another Republican president is not acceptable. They can’t wait to have another Clinton in the White House again. Is Hilary another China’s dream come true? It’s better than having a ChiCom in the White House.

China’s clandestine conspiracy of inflicting the greatest damage to America without firing a single shot works so brilliantly so far. Most splendidly, America cannot do anything about it, not even pointing an accusing finger. Who can back-stab Bush and can still be a guest at Camp David? You’ve got to admire Jiang Zemin’s crafty old mind for this. Due to different upbringing, American politicians are inherently no match for ChiComs in terms of sinister and treacherous craft. How do they survive the power struggle in the CCP and come out as a winner in the Politburo? Which political party on this planet can kill 30 million of her own people and can still remain in power?

China’s insidious strategy against America is truly multidimensional. It mobilizes all economic, military, political and diplomatic ordnance in one concerted campaign. Just when the American economy is gingerly showing some sign of rebound, the blockage of America’s planned attack on Iraq is another diplomatic coup orchestrated by China. This time, aiming to disarm America instead of Iraq. Unbelievable? Here’s how and why.

By aligning the consensus of nations which has common interests in the Middle East and those who are beneficiaries of a significantly crippled America, China concocts a scheme that leaves America cornered in the international arena and powerless to actively defend herself against all future terrorist attacks. But, as we all know, no passive surveillance can effectively protect a country such as America against any terrorist attacks unless you turn it into a police state, which is equally detrimental to her economy as another terrorist attack. Even America is willing to pay the price, it would make President Bush very unpopular in the home front. Bingo, no second term for Bush. Hi! Hilary. It’s China turn saying: “Let’s make love, not war.”

Why the Sino-Russian-Franco-German alliance? It is just a marriage of convenience. After the first Gulf War twelve years ago, American companies are banned from trading with Iraq. Countries like China, France, Germany and Russia quickly jumped in to fill in the vacuum. These lucrative businesses are in clear violation of UN’s embargo but the international community just turn a blind eye to it. Chinese technicians are crawling all over Iraq. They are certainly not there for any humanitarian programs. They are building fiber-optic communication systems for Iraqi military installations. Due to the illegal nature of these businesses, the profit margin is obscenely high. These petrochem trades are not only limited to refining, distributing and selling Iraqi oil in the black market. French, German (and probably Russian) petrochem front companies operating in Iraq don’t even have to pay for the Iraqi crude in hard currency. As chemical companies, how difficult would it be for them to source those WMD (bio-chem-nuke) producing equipments on Saddam Hussein’s shopping list? German media have reported that German supliers are involved in the mobile labs and weaponized smallpox but Schroder covered this up due to the coming election. The anti-American platform he is employing would be seen as a bad publicity. See? Two-way profit. Iraq is a gold mine to them. By protecting Saddam Hussein, they are only protecting their important source of income which would be all down the drain if the Gulf War II becomes a reality. Moreover, the aftermath of a U.S. controlled Iraq is something they don’t want to see.

This brings us to N Korea. Reports have shown that Kim-Jong-Il had already obtained the necessary material from China’s PLA long before they restart their nuclear plant. This is supposed to be a well kept secret between the two brothers. Surprisingly, as if triggered by a remote control switch, Kim suddenly admitted the existence of their nuclear program, threw out the IAEA inspectors, revoked all treaties, followed by daily rhetorics and war chants against America. Why such high profile and provocative stance? Why now? Kim’s unexpected brinkmanship is just a show conducted by his overseer -- China. It is timed exactly as a window of opportunity to divert America’s military attention from Iraq so that America has to fight the looming Iraqi war with one hand tied. They have never underestimated America’s military strength to fight in two fronts. But one front against biological and another against nuclear threat might just be another story.

In the diplomatic arena, China (aligned with France, Germany and Russia) had concocted another scheme to further weaken America (and UK) in the current geopolitical position. By blocking the attack on Iraq, they want to establish an unwritten principle that the possession and manufacture of WMD alone is not a crime. Their argument is almost water tight, America has these weapons too, and so has Pakistan and India. Therefore, owning WMD alone is not a crime by recognized international law.

If the war on Iraq is successfully blocked, the UN, NATO and European Union are essentially sanctioning the ownership of WMD by rogue nations and leaving them untouchable. On the other hand, they are saying a terrorist can only be incriminated by their acts. One nation’s “terrorist” is another’s “freedom fighter”. No nation can attack them preemptively basing on circumstantial evidence. That means, unless they are apprehended in their act, terrorists are just as innocent as any religious group.

Let us combine the above two principles together. What is the implication? Is a mushroom cloud over New York or Washington enough evidence? Everyone knows that it is an atomic device smuggled into America but who did it? Just intention and motives are no solid evidence recognized by the international community. Up to this minute, Osama bin Laden hasn’t expressly admitted that 9/11 is his deed. If and when this happens, will someone like Joschka Fischer say “Excuse me. I am not convinced!” again?

Ridiculous as it may sound, if this philosophy is widely accepted as the international consensus, who in the world is more likely subjected to terrorist attacks than America? Is that what China and those who has everything to gain but very little to lose want to see? The bottom line is: As long as the WMD owner/manufacturer, nationless terrorist who delivers and detonates them in America, and the nations who harbor them are three separate entities, they are untouchable. No body can do anything about them. Not even America, the superpower (or ex-superpower), now the victim. In 9/11, you have seen an Arabic jihadist carrying out a Chinese plan from Afghanistan. Care to guess what the combination is for the next attack?

This plan is refined to perfection that even after the attack, with the jihadists martyred, America cannot accuse anyone. The most horrific is: the perpetrator is still sitting in the UN Security Council, smirking about America’s inability to retaliate and get at the mastermind behind these attacks. And, continue to humiliate America through political and diplomatic channels by accusing her of bullying, aggression and war mongering.

My deduction of the recent development is: the UN, NATO and EU are adapting dangerous policies that are affecting the very existence of America (plus a few of her true allies). And, America has very little room to maneuver but a great deal to lose. This diplomatic gambit is equivalent to an undeclared war in the diplomatic circle. If these policies become the new order of the world, frankly, I am not optimistic. I cannot foresee how America can get out of this quagmire because she is clearly outnumbered. Among other things, America is a superpower because of her military superiority. Once this advantage is nullified by this international scheme, not only America will become vulnerable. The world will be thrown into chaos. If the new order of the world is no order at all, what will it become without a police?

The treacherous scheme also makes attacking America a highly profitable business. All one needs to know is the exact date of the next attack on America. Then they can sell war sensitive stocks short on the stock market and/or sell selective commodities short on the future market. When the attack happens and the market crash, they are guaranteed to reap billions of profits from the market. They don’t even need working capitals since they are on the selling side. Is that one more reason for nations to side with and sympathize with terrorists? One little tip on the date of attack is worth billions of dollars. Is this how terrorists are financed and how they repay their supporters and benefactors? Is this why France and Germany change side? Bottom line: With America’s hands tied and rendered defenseless by the UN, NATO and EU, what counter measure does she have to stop this? They are making attacking America legal, safe, easy and profitable.

ChiCom has emerged as the nouveau riche of the new century and shed their drab Maoist costume for business suits. They have to at least look decent before their peers and cannot afford to be labeled as a rogue nation. Therefore, any vicious plan has to be carried out by hired hands (al Qaeda, Iraq, Iran) or by her client states (North Korea). This strategy of “war of proxy” will be used whenever China wants to hamper America until she is ready to challenge America with one major showdown, probably nuclear in WWIII. Apparently, America has no counter measure against the present and future Chinese instigated conflicts if China continues with this game plan.

China has long consider America as the only major deterrent to her aggression in the Asian region. For obvious reasons, China wants America out of Asian business, once and for all. China wants to have a free hand in Asian matters so that she can become the eventual overlord in the Eastern Hemisphere.

China has long been at odds with Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines and Indonesia over the oil rich Spratley Islands in the South China Sea; with India over disputes of the border; and, with Japan over the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea. Moreover, China now reckons that her military might is at least on a par with Taiwan’s defense and, obviously, China has the numerical advantage in the size of force. However, the only hurdle to a military advance across the strait is America’s intervention. Meanwhile, China has a time table to meet. They are eager to complete the reunification, by force or by political arm twisting, before 2008 -- the year of the Olympic in Beijing.

The current geopolitical perspective is much more volatile than the cold war era (How I miss Reagan and Thatcher, even Gorbachev). The once solid foundation of the world order is now eroded to the core. The borderline between wrong and right, unjust and righteousness are obscured. International organization such as the UN, NATO and EU are letting rogue nations to rewrite the definition of moral and principle. The diplomatic circle is infested with pests each with their own agenda to witness the demise of America. When the last moral foundation of human kind disintegrates, everything could happen.

After 9/11, the demarcation between what is “war” and “non-war” does not exist anymore. If America is committed to defend herself and her position as the world’s greatest democratic nation, she has to take her future in her own hands. America is now fighting to preserve her existence and needs no one’s approval for that. After all, no nation should be denied of her power to defend her survival. It is time for America to take her gloves off and do what has to be done, no matter how you dislike it. There are times when you have to stare eye to eye against evil. Just don’t blink.

I am old enough to come to observe that there are less than 10% bad guys in the world. The worst thing is: out of the 90% good guys, 70% of them are stupid. 27:73, that’s why good guys are always outnumbered. I don’t blame God for making bad guys. His intention is to give mankind free choice. But I do question God for making stupid people to rally around bad guys and protect them. Pray for America, President Bush and the troops.
50 posted on 02/25/2003 1:19:42 PM PST by FreepForever (China is the hub of all evil)
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