Nutty Liberalisms: The Common Link

self | 1/14/03 | Ralph W. Davis

[garyhope]

Actually, I believe that Dennis Prager just published an article about this idea recently.

[dark_lord]

Overall the point is good, and mainly the leftist movements are composed of anti-God forces, or those ignorant of God, and those under the influence of the dark side. However.

There have been many anti-war Christian groups. The Quakers, to cite one example. It is invalid to assume that because someone is anti-war that they therefore do not believe in original sin or are on the side of the forces of darkness.

[Dogrobber]

Truth is a matter involving reality, and the avoidance of truth is a lie.

Reality is as slippery a concept as truth, you seek to define a term with another term equally subject to manipulation.

I think there is a God -- A Creator -- because there is real-world evidence as to creation having happened; but that Creator must be greater -- beyond -- all concepts associated with infinity; meaning that God transcends infinity and that God transcends human understanding.

Thank you, a wonderful expression of faith; we'll make a Christian of you yet.

That leaves us with the choice: accepting mystical, mythological tales as "truth," or recognizing truths about God that are based in reality.

No, it does not leave us with a "choice," that is a false choice you force upon us for the sake of your argument. If "god transcends human understanding" he also transcends normal description and explaination - hence "mystical" explaination is all that we have.

This last post of yours is the most telling. Your personal religion is as mystical as my Catholic tradition and theology. You just march to your own drummer, a little of this religion here, a little of that philosophy there; kind of a "buffet" religious view. And that's ok, just don't try to snow the rest of us that it isn't religion.

[thinktwice]

No, it does not leave us with a "choice," that is a false choice you force upon us for the sake of your argument.

Seems to me that recognizing what is real and what isn't is far more telling than avoiding reality for the sake of a mystical argument.

[Mr. Jeeves]

A straight-forward answer is this: All reject the classic theological principal, held by traditional Christians of various denominations the world over, of original sin.

Sorry, I don't buy Original Sin (tm) either. Original Amorality, on the other hand, remains a fact - Little People have to be properly socialized into acceptable Big People. The groups mentioned in the article just don't like the limits that socialization places on their licentious tendencies.

[JohnGalt]

The Enlightenment Era philosophers were looking to create a set of philosophical rules that rivaled the church. In the 1700s the philosophy and theology could exist harmoniously because the rules of society were pretty much the same, save the basis of where the rules came from the Creator (i.e. laws of the universe like gravity) or the New Testament.

Enlightenment philosophers who believed in the triumph of reason were weary of accepting that God came to earth since it was not 'rational.' Of course, the belief that man observed the rules of the creator opened a Pandora's box for future philosophers like Engel's and Marx just 50 years later to observe it was not the pursuit of freedom that drove man, but class conflict. Who is to say who is right or wrong?

Thus are the limits of philosophy. The tension between liberals (post-Enlighten thinkers) and conservatives (Christians) made a powerful and unique culture in the United States, however, the country had turned its back on its Enlightenment founding in the name of a centralized state and a centralized culture.

[thinktwice]

Reality is as slippery a concept as truth, you seek to define a term with another term equally subject to manipulation.

Existence exists.
Reality is that which exists,
Reason is the standard for knowing reality.
Truth is the recognition of reality.

[philosofy123]

Abraham killed a lamb for god, and offered the meat to his family and the poor.

[thinktwice]

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill

[Dogrobber]

It is a "false choice" because the "truth" about god is not subject to extrinsic proof nor is it limited to your definition of "reality." My truth about God involves Christ and the Trinity. Your truth about God involves some ability on your part to devine truth from reality and therefore infer God. The "truth" could be that it is all chance and there is no god. Therefore, the falsity of your choice; you limit it either to mysticism or reason when it fact it could be neither one.

I really like your

Existence exists. Reality is that which exists, Reason is the standard for knowing reality. Truth is the recognition of reality.

First you chase your tail, then you turn around and chase it again, then you use a vague term to define chasing your tail and then another vague term to validate chasing your tail. It all sounds good, but it really doesn't mean a whole lot does it. "Truth", "reality", "reason" and even to some extent "existance" are subjective terms. Agreement as to their meaning can be forged for most things (this rock exists, since I experience its existence, it must be real) yet the metaphysical reality of god is not agreed, nor is there even agreement on the reality of the metaphyiscal.

So what it comes down to is belief. I have my dogma of belief and your profession of faith appears to be:

Existence exists. Reality is that which exists, Reason is the standard for knowing reality. Truth is the recognition of reality.

[thinktwice]

"Truth", "reality", "reason" and even to some extent "existance [sic]" are subjective terms.

"God" is probably the most subjective term known to man.

And that suggests an apt name for religious philosophy -- Subjectivism.

From my dictionary ...
god -- "Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the affairs and lives of people and the course of nature." -- a subjective term.
subjectivism -- "Of or having to do with the perception or conception of a thing by the mind as opposed to its reality independent of the mind."

More from the dictionary ...
truth -- "The quality of being in accordance with experience, facts or reality" -- an objective term.
reality -- "That which is real" -- an objective term.
reason -- "Sound thought or judgment; good sense" -- an objective term.

objective -- "Of or having to do with a known or perceived object."

I find it telling that the word "reason" starts with the same three letters as "reality" because -- in truth -- reason is man's standard for knowing reality.

[Dogrobber]

What is true? Is abortion right or wrong? Which answer is the truth? Reason can take you to either answer. The reality of the rightness or wrongness of either answer is subjective.

Truth as objective fact works for whether there is a rock in the road or whether a fence is green or red. The terms you use when applied to the really interesting questions of life break down into concepts related to beliefs. Your failure to see and recognize that fact appears to be a willful act; perhaps so that you can "rise" above us lower mortals blinded by the evil controlling forces of religion (religion is the opiate of the masses -right?).

Dream on then, Oh Wise one. Carry on believing that you are above the common weal, unburdened by silly, mystic beliefs promoted by venal shamman doing the modern equivelent of shaking a chicken foot over the mystic fire. Adhere to your own god Reason, worship her, croon to her, shout out your rightousness against the hordes of unbelievers. I sure that it will make you feel better.

Converting the heathens is a bitch, ain't it.

P.S. Sorry I misspelled existence, never could remember which words were "ance" and which were "ence." Petty of me, isn't it.

[thinktwice]

venal shamman [sic] doing the modern equivelent [sic]of shaking a chicken foot over the mystic fire.

Your words -- describing your religious leaders -- are well chosen.

[Dogrobber]

They were chosen for my audience (you) and I figured that you would agree with the characterization. It's a pity you can't see the chicken foot in your own hand.

[thinktwice]

You might recall my writing ....

I think there is a God -- A Creator -- because there is real-world evidence as to creation having happened; but that Creator must be greater -- beyond -- all concepts associated with infinity; meaning that God transcends infinity and that God transcends human understanding.

Perhaps, someday, you will wake up and realize the self-serving absurdity in believing that a transcendent God created man in His own image.

[Dogrobber]

And perhaps someday you will wake up and realize that your bold assertion of the absurdity of another's belief is an arrogant profession of your personal religious faith; a faith no better capable of objective proof than any other.

And made all the more annoying by the superior manner in which you deride all other religions.

Oh, and spare me the lecture about Aristotle and his ethics, truth and reality and I will spare you the lecture on original sin, creation and the Trinity. Since neither of us believes the other's religion, it would be pointless. Oops, that's right- you don't have a religion, you have the truth.

Sorry, I keep forgetting.

[thinktwice]

Sorry, I keep forgetting.

How can you forget truths that you've never learned?

[Dogrobber]

(In a bad French accent) "If you do not learn the truth, I shake my chicken foot at you. If you do not listen to me, I will taunt you again."