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What is Fascism?
Couples Company ^

Posted on 01/30/2003 7:00:27 PM PST by John Lenin

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I think the demoRATS are using the Mein Kampf and Facsim playbook to a T. How many tactics of the facist movement are they using right now ? I'd say almost all of them.
1 posted on 01/30/2003 7:00:27 PM PST by John Lenin
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To: John Lenin
Yes Fascism is making a comeback in Germany and France. No, there won't be big parades and such. Yes, there will be no more freedom of speech or religion (hate crime laws), governmental control of the economy (the 'green' agenda fits here), and plenty of lies.
2 posted on 01/30/2003 7:07:43 PM PST by GermanBabies
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To: John Lenin
This is an interesting source. Did you read their homepage?
http://www.couplescompany.com/
3 posted on 01/30/2003 7:08:35 PM PST by Jean S
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To: JeanS
I did notice the home page. Interesting isn't it ?
4 posted on 01/30/2003 7:15:57 PM PST by John Lenin (Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in !)
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To: John Lenin
Simply stated, a fascist government always has one class of citizens that is considered superior (good) to another (bad) based upon race, creed or origin.

Not necessarily questioning this, I'm just wondering what this class of citizens was for Mussolini's Italy, exactly.

In general, much of this "definition" of fascism is unintelligible to me. The author employs terms and operates from assumptions which are unfamiliar and probably do not apply in the United States (I wonder if the author is an American). For example, a sentence like

Fascism is an extreme measure taken by the bourgeoisie to forestall proletarian revolution;

reduces to complete gibberish in America, because those terms have no meaning or resonance here. Another way to say this is to observe that according to the author's definitions of "bourgeoisie" and "proletariat", one must conclude that in America either there is no "bourgeoisie", or the "bourgeoisie" is the same thing as the "proletariat" (because basically all of the "middle" class work, which means they are "members of the working class", which is the definition of "proletariat").

Such terms may have made sense to people living in the 19th Century in feudal countries like Germany and Russia. They make little sense in 21st century America. The author seems to carry a bit of Marxist baggage.

5 posted on 01/30/2003 7:17:56 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: John Lenin
The definition of fascism given here is *WAY OFF BASE* from the defintions I've read elsewhere - where fascism was described basically as an "unholy alliance between government and big business", in which individuals own the business, but government skims off all the profits.
6 posted on 01/30/2003 7:23:31 PM PST by The Duke
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To: The Duke
Does the name really matter? You can call it 'Potato Chips' but it doesn't make it any less worse.
7 posted on 01/30/2003 7:26:03 PM PST by GermanBabies
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To: Dr. Frank
You bring up some good points but the article makes some sense to me. I was always under the impression that fascism was a worker movement against the CEO/business class.

Looking at the American situation I think the left is being hoodwinked by the multinational corporations who have found a vehicle to rid themselves of competition through various extremist left-wing movements like the animal rights and environmental movements

When you trace the money back to the owner most of the activism money is coming from billionaires through organizations like the Pew Foundation and many others. Liberals are an easy target, they can be swayed on emotion and thats what all these activist rights movements are about. The sky is always falling in their little worlds.
8 posted on 01/30/2003 7:30:07 PM PST by John Lenin (Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in !)
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To: John Lenin
I think this is just one person's opinion. I have heard other definitions. This one definition seems to occupy a lot of this author's attention, because his definitions of Communism and Socialism amount to ONE PARAGRAPH! This definition of Fascism goes on for two pages.

The fact is that any form of overcentralization is evil. Whether it is central control or central ownership, it is Socialism and it is evil.

9 posted on 01/30/2003 7:33:49 PM PST by keithtoo
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To: John Lenin
It looks like you've come across a Marxist definition of fascism, and not an especially clear one. Fascism is a form of tyranny adopted in countries where there is great insecurity and political combat. Fascism differs from other forms of tyranny in its dynamic aspect. It's not simply the army imposing martial law. There's a political movement involved and it includes a large scale mobilization of society.

In its day, fascism involved combat and suppression of Marxists and communists, but the opposition between fascism and communism has often been exaggerated. On the one hand, opposition to communism motivated many to support fascism in defense of property and private enterprise. On the other hand, Leninism was in many ways a model and precursor for fascism, as well as an opponent. Both sought total mobilization and control of society.

It's hard to imagine that fascism would have caught on as much as did without Marxism-Leninists as competitor, threat, precursor and example, but one can easily imagine societies divided along other lines, racial or ethnic or religious or cultural, that would adopt fascist policies. It's egocentrism that makes communists think that it's all about them.

Another important element behind historical fascism was the First World War. The vision of civil society as a battlefield, the hunger for redemption through violence, and the idea of mobilizing society for combat made their way into the bloodstream of the era, left and right.

Many Third World dictatorships in recent years have had much in common with fascism, but the intensity, the hunger for war and conquest, and the fear and desire for revolution weren't present. Fascism is "hot" and impassioned, while contemporary society tends to be "cool" and dispassionate.

But if you asked a fascist what his movement was about, he might well talk about the corporate state and representation by occupational groups, things that get left out of modern polemical definitions of fascism.

10 posted on 01/30/2003 7:37:23 PM PST by x
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To: GermanBabies
Does the name really matter?

Words only matter if it is important that people can communicate. I'll leave the answer to that question up to you.

11 posted on 01/30/2003 7:38:48 PM PST by The Duke
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To: John Lenin
I'd say that about sums it up.
12 posted on 01/30/2003 7:40:30 PM PST by Terriergal ("What's more ridiculous than someone who's pro-choice and anti-hunting?")
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To: The Duke
The definition of fascism given here is *WAY OFF BASE* from the defintions I've read elsewhere

You mean in the mainstream media?

13 posted on 01/30/2003 7:41:27 PM PST by Terriergal ("What's more ridiculous than someone who's pro-choice and anti-hunting?")
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To: John Lenin
Nice Couples Company poll to freep. Go here and scroll down.
14 posted on 01/30/2003 7:44:26 PM PST by x
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To: John Lenin
I disagree with this definition of fascism, racism is not a necessary component (even though it is almost always present in fascist systems, because it is such a useful tool).

Fascism is a dictatorial ideology which calls for government control and organization of private industries (not necessarily all of them, but especially ones vital to the survival, success, and warmaking capability of the nation). Fascism has inherent in it the glorification of strong leadership, strong soldiers, and war as an end and not a means.

Iraq fits this definition of fascism completely.

<Flameshield On>

The economic/industrial description does not fit America, but we do come superficially close to matching the ideological component. We do like having a strong leader, and we do celebrate our military victories, and we do place a very high social value on military service. We like having a strong military, we believe it is very important to our nation.

But I said the resemblance is only superficial: we don't want to rush headlong into war, we've been trying to avoid it. Even the hawk Bush decided to go through Colin Powell and the UN (and Powell succeeded brilliantly there). We do glorify strong soldiers, but only if they are also moral. Part of our high social status for veterans and soldiers is that they are upholding democratic values and human rights.

Our willingness to use military force to protect those values (and to protect ourselves) is sometimes confused by left-wing @$$#0135 for a fascist affinity for war. They are completely wrong, they have completely taken morality out of the equation (which is why the pundit Andrew Sullivan refers to them as "depraved"--a description with which I wholeheartedly agree); they see the US as a bigger fascist than Saddam Hussein, merely because we are bigger.

</Flameshield>

15 posted on 01/30/2003 7:59:02 PM PST by xm177e2 (smile) :-)
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To: Dr. Frank
>>Fascism is an extreme measure taken by the bourgeoisie to forestall proletarian revolution<<

In plain English, one could say that the Germans hated and feared the Soviets and thought Hitler would be a good way of preventing a Communist/Socialist takeover of Germany.
16 posted on 01/30/2003 8:01:59 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: The Duke
>>an "unholy alliance between government and big business<<

Flawed, in my opinion, as yet another economic definition of fascism, which wasn't based on economics.

I definte fascism as follows - and in the following definition, I've included Islamofascism aka Islamism:

1. Extremely nationalistic - in the case of Hitler, the nation was the Third Reich, in the case of bin Laden, the nation is the Nation of Islam, the Ummah, which doesn't exist now but did within living memory as the Ottoman Empire.
2. Anti-democratic - these people want to destroy democracy.
3. Subjugation of the individual to the group, to the point of totalitarianism.
4. Use of violence, including mob violence, to achieve political goals, rather than votes or persuasion.
5. Emphasis on action rather than thought.
6. Exaltation of a strong leader.
17 posted on 01/30/2003 8:06:32 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: John Lenin
Fascism is right-wing socialism, which is to say, nationalist socialism, as opposed to left-wing socialism, which is to say, internationalist socialism (communism).

Most socialists are somewhere on the continuum between the two extremes, and would be our "christian socialists", or "social democrats". Out on the extremes, you find the Stalinists and others of their ilk, who shoot dissenters.

The "left" and "right", actually, are a little deceptive, as the classic left-wing example was Stalin and the other Soviets, who promoted internationalist socialism, but this version always led back to Soviet control, which is to say, they used left-wing ideology to achieve a right-wing result.

Classic liberals, US-style conservatives, libertarians, are not a part of this continuum, they have no place in this left-right model.

18 posted on 01/30/2003 8:19:31 PM PST by marron
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To: John Lenin
This whole article is mostly crap, designed to confuse not enlighten.

In fact, Hitler *was* a fascist. So was Mussolini. Not mentioning either shows the agenda here: to try to transfer the term to modern Republics and free market free societies.

19 posted on 01/30/2003 8:21:07 PM PST by WOSG
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To: John Lenin
Duh, now its obvious ... "to forestall proletarian revolution" ... this is written from the communist perpective....

what this propaganda omits is that fascism and communism are ideological twins, peas in the same collectivist pod. the only difference is that fascism openly allows a (property-controlling) ruling elite as part of the ideology - while communism pretended there wasnt (but in fact there really was, for example USSR had the "nomenklatura" of elites; consequently, Stalin's USSR and Hitler's Germany wasnt much different for the average person not in the "Party").
20 posted on 01/30/2003 8:25:20 PM PST by WOSG
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To: marron
But there are left-wing forms of socialism that stress nationalism, such as North Korea's "Juche" ("self-reliance")
21 posted on 01/30/2003 8:26:46 PM PST by xm177e2 (smile) :-)
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To: xm177e2
But there are left-wing forms of socialism that stress nationalism, such as North Korea's "Juche" ("self-reliance")

Stalinism, as I mentioned, used left-wing ideology to achieve a right-wing result, whether intentionally or not.

Which means that the Soviet and NK communism might better be described as fascism. The best example of truly internationalist socialism is the EU. It is not so extreme as to feel the need to shoot anybody, but ideologically, it fits.

22 posted on 01/30/2003 8:36:54 PM PST by marron
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To: John Lenin
Socialism = the state owns the means of production (example: the People's Republic of China).

Fascism (corporatism) = the means of production are privately owned but highly regulated by the state (example: the United States of America).

Regards

J.R.

23 posted on 01/30/2003 8:43:57 PM PST by NMC EXP
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To: Dr. Frank
You noticed many of the things I noticed about the definitions of fascism presented here. For "facist governments" we have as examples Mussolini's Italy and Spain's Falangist government under Francisco Franco. Neither government had a class of peoplepersecuted based upon a superficial characteristic. Borh employed socialist systems of governmentwith private ownership of the means of production. The classic definition of fascism is a totalitarian socialist state where the ownership of private property is allowed with state control of that property.
24 posted on 01/30/2003 9:00:02 PM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: John Lenin
This is a load of crap ..... simple definitions.

Capitalism : Private property is respected, free market economy

Communism : No private property (government owns the means of production), command economy.

Fascism: Private property with ultimate control residing in the government (rules and regulations) (illusion of ownership). Market is free, but limited by government regulations .

America boiled down is moving towards fascism. 'Communist' China is actually moving towards fascism as well.

25 posted on 01/30/2003 9:04:05 PM PST by Centurion2000 (The meek shall inherit the Earth. The stars belong to the bold.)
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To: marron
The "left" and "right", actually, are a little deceptive, as the classic left-wing example was Stalin and the other Soviets, who promoted internationalist socialism, but this version always led back to Soviet control, which is to say, they used left-wing ideology to achieve a right-wing result.

As with anything the government gets involved with the most extreme thing that can happen from an idea will eventually happen. Thats why we have to fight the socialist movement but socialism turns into communism every time.
26 posted on 01/30/2003 9:07:21 PM PST by John Lenin (Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in !)
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To: MattinNJ; HighRoadToChina; weikel; DAnconia55
FYI
27 posted on 01/30/2003 9:09:09 PM PST by Sparta (Statism is a mental illness)
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To: Centurion2000
I would say that China is already fully fascist. The big question now is whether or not their current "economic miracle" is sustainable under such a system. Cracks are appearing in the Hunan province, where Mao started out.
28 posted on 01/30/2003 9:10:04 PM PST by Billy_bob_bob ("He who will not reason is a bigot;He who cannot is a fool;He who dares not is a slave." W. Drummond)
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To: x
Correct.

more info here

Fascism essentially is the goverment support of one group at the expense of another. Private property, controlled by the state. You use the property for government ends, you keep it. You don't you lose it.

Amerika is in the process of creating our own brand of Fascism today.

29 posted on 01/30/2003 9:14:54 PM PST by DAnconia55
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To: xm177e2
The economic/industrial description does not fit America, but we do come superficially close to matching the ideological component. We do like having a strong leader, and we do celebrate our military victories, and we do place a very high social value on military service. We like having a strong military, we believe it is very important to our nation.

Convenient for you to ignore all federal workplace laws. ADA, 'racism' laws, 'AA', 'sexism' laws, EEOC, OSHA, EPA, etc.

Amerika is creating its own brand of fascism.

Perhaps Bush can stop it. I doubt it. And I doubt he'll try.

30 posted on 01/30/2003 9:17:22 PM PST by DAnconia55
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To: Billy_bob_bob
I would say that China is already fully fascist. The big question now is whether or not their current "economic miracle" is sustainable under such a system.

Nope .... if you look at the world in the 1700's and today you'll see something odd.

In the 1700's America was a radical fledgling government.
Today America is one of the OLDEST governments with the oldest unbroken chain of succession of administrations. Freedom and capitalism is why. I don't wory about fascists/communists ever superceding our country. Our country will be eventually superceded by the ideological inheritors of the Constitution. (Probably off-worlders or colonists)

31 posted on 01/30/2003 9:19:35 PM PST by Centurion2000 (The meek shall inherit the Earth. The stars belong to the bold.)
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To: Centurion2000
forgot to add my point :) ....

No communist or fascist state has survived longer than 100 years.

32 posted on 01/30/2003 9:20:19 PM PST by Centurion2000 (The meek shall inherit the Earth. The stars belong to the bold.)
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To: Centurion2000; Sparta
provides legal justification for persecuting a specific segment of the population and operates behind a two tiered legal system.

Sounds like divorce court.

33 posted on 01/30/2003 9:22:20 PM PST by weikel (and other crimes involving men and women etc)
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To: CobaltBlue
I appreciate the fact that you have a definition for the word "fascism"...however the definition I was attempting to share was the one put forth by Mussolini - who is acknowledged as the father of fascism.
34 posted on 01/30/2003 9:24:14 PM PST by The Duke
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To: Centurion2000; Sparta
Hmmmm wouldn't agree there. Imperial Rome was pretty Facist in structure it kept on ticking and survived in a mummified form in the East for 1500 years( 1800 if you count the Holy Roman Empire as a legitimate heir to the Roman Empire in the West, I don't except perhaps for the reign of Charlemagne himself).

Democracies and Republics are what tend to fail. Don't know of any historically besides Switzerland which have gone 200 years without becoming a socialist mob rule statem. The mob gets full franchise rights eventually... the productive people get robbed blind to pay the looters and eventually when Atlas Shrugs a dictator comes to power.

35 posted on 01/30/2003 9:28:25 PM PST by weikel
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To: marron
I agree that the EU has more of the industrial component of fascism (wanting to have government control over industries), but it's very, very far from "fascism." It just doesn't resemble traditional fascism at all.
36 posted on 01/30/2003 9:30:44 PM PST by xm177e2 (smile) :-)
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To: John Lenin
demoRATS = Republicrats
37 posted on 01/30/2003 9:32:23 PM PST by UnBlinkingEye
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To: weikel
Hmmm you have a point there.
38 posted on 01/30/2003 9:40:43 PM PST by Centurion2000 (The meek shall inherit the Earth. The stars belong to the bold.)
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To: Centurion2000
Our country will be eventually superceded by the ideological inheritors of the Constitution. (Probably off-worlders or colonists)

I have the best wishes for your peaceful pronouncement. This is also how I wish future history to go.

Realize, however, that the American Goverment is well aware of how colonies can rebel. And will try to prevent it.

Add to this, if you will, my own pet theory.
Offworld expansion is intentionally being shut down for these very reasons. The tyrant does not want the victim (or his kids) to escape.

There will be no off world colonies supported by the US, until they are willing to do one of two things :

1. Use powerful control paradigms to attempt to prevent colonial revolt. (Implants, threaten family members, etc.)

2. Surrender the Fascist/Socialist state they are creating to a Capitalist/Liberty based colonization program in DIRECT RESPONSE to threats of another nation (China or Russia) colonizing areas of space.

Hopefully, it will be #2 (I doubt it). More likely they'll try #1, and fail

I look forward to the day that inhabitants of the moon can look down on Earth and tell them to FO.

First ship out, I'm on.

39 posted on 01/30/2003 9:42:25 PM PST by DAnconia55
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To: UnBlinkingEye
Republicrats= RINOS
40 posted on 01/30/2003 9:47:29 PM PST by John Lenin (Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in !)
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To: marron
Bingo. We have a winner.
41 posted on 01/30/2003 9:47:40 PM PST by PeaceBeWithYou (De Oppresso Liber!)
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To: DAnconia55
I look forward to the day that inhabitants of the moon can look down on Earth and tell them to FO.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

42 posted on 01/30/2003 9:59:07 PM PST by weikel
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To: All
bttt
43 posted on 01/30/2003 10:07:15 PM PST by Coleus (RU 486 Kills Babies)
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To: John Lenin
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together...

See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly! I'm crying...

John was right, the advocates of war will never put themselves in harms way, the farther the battlefield the braver they are.

Let our rabid political class lead the charge into war, politicians first, pundits second, their families third.

44 posted on 01/30/2003 10:23:46 PM PST by UnBlinkingEye
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To: NMC EXP
The fasces are present in US government symbology. They flank Lincoln's Chair at his monument.
45 posted on 01/30/2003 10:36:29 PM PST by ffusco (sempre ragione)
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To: DAnconia55
Maybe it'll be "Starship Troopers". A highly mobile, well educated body politic, Low crime and swift justice, A prosperous middle class, and a large mechanized armed forces, a society that values masculine virtues of loyalty and service yet isn't chauvanistic.

The Brits call it Jolly Fascism.
46 posted on 01/30/2003 10:43:34 PM PST by ffusco (sempre ragione)
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To: marron
Classic liberals, US-style conservatives, libertarians, are not a part of this continuum, they have no place in this left-right model.

True, Capitalism is a different module. Think of it as a step progression whose starting module is Communism out of which grows Feudalism out of which grows Capitalism. If Capitalism cannot be sustained it will regress to either Feudalism or Communism. Each module has it's own left-right factions. Some models put this progression in a circle or even a spiral.

47 posted on 01/30/2003 10:46:58 PM PST by PeaceBeWithYou (De Oppresso Liber!)
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To: John Lenin
If you list the major points in Das Kapitale... you'll see that the RATS have basically adopted the Communist playbook.
48 posted on 01/30/2003 10:47:07 PM PST by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
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To: John Lenin
So are the French and if the Germans didn't invent it they at least have practice.
49 posted on 01/30/2003 10:53:33 PM PST by tiki
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To: John Lenin
Duh, I thought a facist was one who carried around a bundle of sticks with an ax head sticking out!
50 posted on 01/30/2003 10:54:39 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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