Not so smart (Kasparov, Computers and chess)

The Economist ^ | Jan 30th 2003

[July 4th]

there is no need to worry about the world being taken over by chess-mad robots

Well, I'm glad that's settled.

[MHGinTN]

Paul Morphy died youngish, but wasn't Alexander Alekin (sp?) into middle age when he finally retired from competitive Chess?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Oh, please. I don't think humanity is any worse off just because the world's greatest distance runners would finish the Daytona 500 about 180 laps behind Sterlin Marlin or Dale Jarrett.

Continuing my earlier point, this is why I would love to see a match-up between Bobby Fischer and Deep Blue.

According to IBM's own development notes, Deep Blue was designed to beat Kasparov in the 1997 match-up. IBM brought in dozens of defeated Grand Masters to meet with the Programming Team and asked them, "How does Kasparov play?" The object was not to figure out why these Grand Masters beat Kasparov (most of them hadn't), but why did they lose? And thereby, to specifically design a computer program which anticipated Kasparov's strengths, and compensated in advance.

This wouldn't work against Fischer. We are talking about an idiot savant who by the age of thirteen would sacrifice his QUEEN, to no apparent Logical Advantage whatsoever, against the strongest American players just to prove a point -- "You foolish Mortals are mere putty in my hands".

• Was the Queen-sacrifice the brilliant work of a young Blaise Pascal who anticipated an advantage many iterations in advance of even the best of his opponents?
• Or was it merely a casual "throwaway" on Fischer's part -- just to give the poor Grand Masters a "fighting chance", so as to make it interesting for his own insane tastes?

I'm far too stupid to know, and Bobby Fischer is a bit too kooky to tell us.

[Alberta's Child]

I once read that Fischer could re-play every game he ever played -- from memory.

I once played against Boris Spassky -- aside from the Russian accent, he seemed like a very normal human being.

[TheConservator]

Alekhine died towards the end of WWII after having collaborated with the Germans.

All the good chess players I know are quite smart. Many, but not all, are also a little wierd.

Chess is not very popular in America, although I have never really understood why. It is much more popular in almost every other country. American Grandmasters (like Yasser Seirawan) are about as famous in Europe, Russia, etc as your average baseball player is here.

[jgorris]

Sorry Mojo, but Kasparov is still the highest rated player in the history of the rating system. While it is true that Kramnik holds a title of World Champion, having defeated Garry in a title match, it is not the FIDE title (which is held by Ruslan Ponomariov of the Ukraine). Furthermore, Garry has a plus score against Kramnik in the overall match of all games played. In fact, he recently defeated Kramnik in a match (the Botvinnik Memorial). So the facts do not support your assertion are that Kramnik is the better player.

[TheConservator]

What is your rating? Did you play Spassky in a tournament game, or in a simul?

[xm177e2]

People with Russian accents aren't normal human beings?

[xm177e2]

:-)

[TheConservator]

I think its arguable whether Kasparov is the best player in the world today. I think it inarguable that Kasparov today is nowhere near as strong as he was 5 or 10 years ago.

[MHGinTN]

The 'Evergreen' is still one of the greatest hints at Fischer's brilliance, expecially when you consider his age at the time and the experience of his opponent.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I know someone who played Bobby Fisher back in the late 1950s when he was a kid. He said even back then you could tell that he had a few toys in his attic. 19 posted on 02/03/2003 8:13 PM PST by Alberta's Child

I don't know any of Fischer's play-mates personally, of course -- especially since the Chess involved is waaaaaay over my head.

I'm not that good a Chess player. I am not a child of Wei Chi (though I have never once lost a friendly game, that is only because my friends are not strategists); but rather, a child of Avalon Hill. My strength is not in Strategy, but in Economics. And so I must content myself with the aphorism that Good Generals examine Tactics, but Great Generals examine Logistics. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

But I do enjoy reading the Interviews you can find on the Net (if you look hard enough).

"Fischer? He's indescribably brilliant. However, he's also a slavering mad-man. Pity, that."

[Alberta's Child]

It was a 50-game simultaneous. I was just a kid, and I haven't played competitively since I was in high school. I wasn't a great player overall (maybe 1400 or so at the time), but I could beat most people up to 400 points higher than me if I played white (I had perfected the Botvinnik System of the English Open over a period of several years).

[Alberta's Child]

LOL. When you're 15 years old and you've never met a Russian before, a Russian doesn't sound like a "normal" person.

:-)

[Mr. Mojo]

Kasparov is still the highest rated player in the history of the rating system.

He lost to Krammnik in the World Title Match. Deal with it.

While it is true that Kramnik holds a title of World Champion, having defeated Garry in a title match, it is not the FIDE title (which is held by Ruslan Ponomariov of the Ukraine).

So because it's not FIDE, your assertion is that somehow it's not legitimate? Kasparov was the best player in the world, was beaten by Krammnik, and will have to beat Krammnik to regain that distinction.

Furthermore, Garry has a plus score against Kramnik in the overall match of all games played.

Krammnik was in his late teens when he lost many of those matches, and Krasparov was in his prime. Times have changed.

In fact, he recently defeated Kramnik in a match (the Botvinnik Memorial).

Until he does it with the World Championship on the line, it doesn't mean squat. Kasparov is tired; his day is done.

[GATOR NAVY]

What are the differences between Deep Blue and Deep Junior?

[Mr. Mojo]

wasn't Alexander Alekin (sp?) into middle age when he finally retired from competitive Chess?

Yep, but he wasn't near the top of his game when he retired. Lasker, on the other hand, was winning tournaments in his late 50's against the likes of the great Capablanca and a young Alekhine.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

To: Alberta's Child ~~ People with Russian accents aren't normal human beings? 28 posted on 02/03/2003 8:50 PM PST by xm177e2

Russians are normal Human Beings, they're just better Mathematicians than the rest of us. (grin)

If you have any doubt on the matter, check the "space race" exhibition at the Smithsonian Aeronautics museum in Washington DC. One of the funniest examples of "culture clash" I ever saw...

• Here is our US Astronaut suit constructed of (1960s-era) space-age Plastics and Composites, a testament to Western technological brilliance...
• And right next to it is the Soviet Cosmonaut suit, with it's Central Console constructed of 1930's-era stainless steel Gauges embedded in a block of Siberian Ironwood. ("So what if it's a piece of lumber? It's bloody-well air-tight; let's send it into Space!!")

It just goes to show... when Russian Dictators have been willing to sacrifice the Human Rights and the Life-Blood of 100 million of their own people (which sadly, is a sacrifice that Russian Dictators are usually willing to make)... they have admittedly accomplished Wonders. Even when they had to use practically 19th Century technology to do it.

When you don't give a tinker's damn about Human Life and Human Rights, a Gun to the Head can deliver the nigh-impossible (and that's my opinion of the Soviet space program).

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

What are the differences between Deep Blue and Deep Junior? 36 posted on 02/03/2003 9:10 PM PST by GATOR NAVY

I'm assuming it's either "One generation against another", or the Proven Workhorse versus miniaturization and improved capabilities.

Big Brother plays against Little Brother.
Centralized Mini-Computer, against Turbo-Charged Work-Station.

That's just my guess. I have enjoyed reading the Deep Blue development notes against Kasparov, but this is not my area of expertise (I'm a financier, not a programmer).

If you want a more precise answer -- ask IBM. I'm not the guy to answer your question intelligently, sad to say.

My calvinist buddy "CCWoody" is a computer engineer, he knows this subject better than do I. At least he can probably comment more intelligently than can I. I'll flag him in.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The 'Evergreen' is still one of the greatest hints at Fischer's brilliance, expecially when you consider his age at the time and the experience of his opponent.

If you're referring to some connection to the Anderssen-Dufresne game (Berlin, 1852), you're over my head.

If not, then you're way over my head.

I would have liked to learn Chess from a master, but I have not. At my very best I have played against a NorthWestern US regional champion when I was 19, somewhere on a lonely fishing boat as we together plied the Chatham Straits of Alaska.

I barely won two out of thirteen if that tells you anything (I might perhaps have forced a Stalemate upon him in another round, exact memory fails me).

As I said to AC, I am not a child of Wei Chi, but of Avalon Hill. I know that I have not learned Tactics as well as I could. Not Strategy, but "Grand Strategy" --i.e., Economics, which is like breathing Air to me.

So, I can only hope that my military Peers have likewise learned Logistics, if the old Maxim holds true.