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Why I Became a Conservative: A British liberal discovers England's greatest philosopher.
FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | Wednesday, February 5, 2003 | By Roger Scruton

Posted on 02/04/2003 10:13:26 PM PST by JohnHuang2

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To: beckett
Indeed! I'm very glad JohnHuang2 posted it. And it is comforting to know you were about to do the same! Hugs!
51 posted on 02/07/2003 10:55:40 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; beckett
Many Heartfelt Thanks for the ping, bb, and Many Thanks for the fine post, beckett. Burke is far deeper than I had ever imagined and Scruton brings him alive. So much of the essay resonated with me that I would almost have to quote the full article in order to comment, so I won't at this point. More maybe later.

I will observe, though, that it is noteable to me that you, bb and beckett, who epitomize to me FR Folks who exhibit the most refined and acute of aesthetic senses, also exhibit a most adept and deep sense of and love for Truth. It is more than a pleasure for this Redneck Intellectual to be invited into your company.

52 posted on 02/08/2003 7:26:49 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: beckett
I thought ALDaily went out of business. Who took them over?
53 posted on 02/08/2003 7:28:10 AM PST by Timesink
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To: Timesink
A&L Daily did go out of business for about a week or ten days, and Denis Dutton's eclectic daily sampling of web articles looked like it would disappear, but the Chronicle of Higher Education came to the rescue.
54 posted on 02/08/2003 7:46:11 AM PST by beckett
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To: JohnHuang2
And a belated Thank You to you for a fine article, John, and for teaching me once again that I am not too old to learn.
55 posted on 02/08/2003 8:39:53 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: Phaedrus
I didn't post the article, just read and enjoyed it.

Thanks for the cordial words Phaedrus. I live by the dictum of the Book of Ezekiel, where the book named includes not only the Bible, but all of philosophy, the Western canon, and works by the best writers of our own day:

'Mortal, eat what is offered to you; eat this book; fill your stomach with it.' And I ate it, and in my mouth it was as sweet as honey." Ez 3:1

56 posted on 02/08/2003 8:49:05 AM PST by beckett
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To: JohnHuang2
Great post! Thanks John.

Mustang sends w/Best FReegards.
57 posted on 02/08/2003 9:18:21 AM PST by Mustang
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To: betty boop
Fascinating to see the distance that had to be traveled by the continental minds...we don't reflect how lucky we are in our heritage.
58 posted on 02/08/2003 2:52:02 PM PST by KC Burke
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To: KC Burke; Alamo-Girl; Askel5; beckett; cornelis; Diamond; Phaedrus; Slingshot; Dataman; ...
Fascinating to see the distance that had to be traveled by the continental minds...we don't reflect how lucky we are in our heritage.

Hello KC Burke! On this general question of Anglican vs. Gallican liberty and political order, the British Glorious Revolution of 1688 (with which John Locke was closely associated) and the French Revolution of 1789 are most instructive.

Two “revolutions” could not be more unlike. Our own American founding was on the first model; the Framers had explicitly rejected all the premises regarding human nature and sociopolitical order that the latter would soon instantiate, in terror and blood. Yet in our present day, professors and acolytes of the spirit of the French Revolution are working overtime to make sure it will yet again dominate the culture, and more importantly, the seats of political Power.

The following passage from Edmund Burke’s Reflections on the Revolution in France (1790) describes one of the French Revolution’s most striking innovations. The subject is the seizure of the Ecclesiastical estates, nominally to pay off the egregious national debts. Arguably, however, this business really had more to do with reducing the religious establishment (and any other “politically incorrect” establishment or individual for that matter) – so vital a part of traditional French national life -- to impecunity and impotence. [I have a facsimile of the 1790 edition that replicates the rather odd (from our modern point of view) orthography of the time. So I’ve taken the liberty of a little “updating.” Burke is addressing an unidentified French correspondent here.]

“Few barbarous conquerors have ever made so terrible a revolution in property. None of the heads of the Roman factions…in all their auctions of rapine, have ever set up to sale the goods of the conquered citizen to such an enormous amount. It must be allowed in favor of those tyrants of antiquity, that what was done by them could hardly be said to be done in cold blood. Their passions were inflamed, their tempers soured, their understandings confused, with the spirit of revenge, with the innumerable reciprocated and recent afflictions and retaliations of blood and rapine. They were driven beyond all bounds of moderation by the apprehension of the return to power with the return of property to the families of those they had injured beyond all hope of forgiveness.

“These Roman conquerors, who were yet only in the elements of tyranny, and were not instructed in the rights of man to exercise all sorts of cruelties on each other without provocation, thought it necessary to spread a sort of color over their injustice. They considered the vanquished party as composed of traitors who had borne arms, or otherwise had acted with hostility against the commonwealth. They regarded them as persons who had forfeited their property by their crimes. With you, in your improved state of the human mind, there was no such formality. You seized upon five millions sterling of annual rent, and turned forty or fifty thousand human creatures out of their houses, because “such was your pleasure.” The tyrant Henry the Eighth of England, as he was not better enlightened than the Roman Marius’s and Sulla’s, and had not studied in your new schools, did not know what an effectual instrument of despotism was to be found in that grand magazine of offensive weapons, the rights of men. When he resolved to rob the abbeys, as the club of the Jacobins have robbed all the ecclesiastics, he began by setting on foot a committee to examine into the crimes and abuses which prevailed in those communities. As it might be expected, his commission reported truths, exaggerations, and falsehoods. But truly or falsely it reported abuses and offenses. However, as abuses might be corrected, as every crime of persons does not infer a forfeiture with regard to communities, and as property, in that dark age, was not discovered to be a creature of prejudice, all those abuses (and there were enough of them) were hardly thought sufficient ground to such a confiscation as it was for his purposes to make. He therefore procured the formal surrender of these estates. All these operose proceedings were adopted by one of the most decided tyrants in the rolls of history, as necessary preliminaries, before he could venture, by bribing the members of his two servile houses with a share in the spoil, and holding out to them an eternal immunity from taxation, to demand a confirmation of his iniquitous proceedings by an act of parliament. Had fate reserved him to our times, four technical terms would have done his business, and saved him all this trouble; he needed nothing more than one short form of incantation – ‘Philosophy, Light, Liberality, the Rights of Men.’

“I can say nothing in praise of those acts of tyranny, which no voice has hitherto ever commended under any of their false colors; yet in these false colors an homage was paid by despotism to justice. The power which was above all fear and all remorse was not set above all shame. Whilst shame keeps its watch, Virtue is not wholly extinguished in the heart; nor will Moderation be utterly exiled from the minds of tyrants.”

* * * * *

Whilst shame keeps its watch, Virtue is not wholly extinguished in the heart; nor will Moderation be utterly exiled from the minds of tyrants. Ah, there’s the rub in our age: We humans have become increasingly shameless. It probably has to do with the increasing general contempt for God, the foundation of moral order. And our shamelessness leaves us defenseless against the seductive blandishments of the avatars of tyranny. The rhetoric of “Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" sounds so good and right and decent, how can it have been such a successful mask for so much Evil in the world, down to the present time?

Thanks so much for writing, KC.

59 posted on 02/08/2003 6:44:26 PM PST by betty boop
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To: JohnHuang2
Good essay, but I don't have the time to finish it. It's interesting that Christopher Hitchens used the same quote from De Gaulle,—“Toute ma vie, je me suis fait une certaine idée de la France”— in his article on WSJ/Opinion Journal. It's a very amusing article if you haven't read it.
60 posted on 02/08/2003 7:05:24 PM PST by Eva
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To: Phaedrus; Alamo-Girl; Askel5; beckett; cornelis; Diamond; Dataman; KC Burke; Slingshot; ...
Burke is far deeper than I had ever imagined and Scruton brings him alive. So much of the essay resonated with me that I would almost have to quote the full article in order to comment, so I won't at this point.

I confess I'm playing hookey from my reading of Penrose and Walker this weekend, to get up to speed on certain of beckett's and KC Burke's recent posts. That is, I'm finally getting around to reading Burke's Reflections. It's been sitting on my "primo" bookshelf for years now, just waiting for me to get to it. But the aforementioned "orthography" seemed so daunting, that I didn't feel up to the "fuffering" it would require to read the edition I have in my library. (In that day and age -- as can be seen in the Framers' own writings -- "s" is spelled as an "f", unless it is an initial capital, or the terminal letter in a word.) But I gather that one can get used to anything that doesn't cause too much "fuffering".... :^)

Anyhoot, this work is amazing, wonderful; it speaks to the ages, and is particularly timely and instructive to our own age. IMHO. It helps one understand how a phenomenon like Hitler, or Stalin, could ever arise in the first place....

On Burke's view, the correct understanding of how these enormities ever got into the position of seizing absolute tyrannical power -- with public approval, at least in the first case, at least once -- all boils down pretty much to this:

"History consists, for the greater part, of the miseries brought upon the world by pride, ambition, avarice, revenge, lust, sedition, hypocrisy, ungoverned zeal, and all the train of disorderly appetites, which shake the public with the same

'troublous storms that toss/The private state, and render life unsweet.'

These vices are the causes of those storms. Religion, morals, laws, prerogatives, privileges, liberties, rights of men, are the pretexts. The pretexts are always found in some specious appearance of a real good. You would not secure men from tyranny and sedition, by rooting out of the mind the principles to which the fraudulent pretexts apply? If you did, you would root out every thing that is valuable in the human breast. As these are the pretexts, so the ordinary actors and instruments in great public evils are kings, priests, magistrates, senates, parliaments, national assemblies, judges, and captains. You would not cure the evil by resolving, that there should be no more monarchs, nor ministers of state, nor of the gospel; no interpreters of law; no general officers; no public councils. You might change the names. The things in some shape must remain. A certain quantum of power must always exist in the community, in some hands, and under some appellation. Wise men will apply their remedies to vices, not to names; to the causes of evil which are permanent, not to the occasional organs by which they act, and the transitory modes in which they appear. Otherwise, you will be wise historically, a fool in practice. Seldom have two ages the same fashion in their pretexts and the same modes of mischief. Wickedness is a little more inventive. Whilst you are discussing fashion, the fashion is gone by. The very same vice assumes a new body. The spirit transmigrates; and, far from losing its principle of life by the change of its appearance, it is renovated in its new organs with the fresh vigor of a juvenile activity. It walks abroad; it continues its ravages; whilst you are gibbetting the carcass, or demolishing the tomb. You are terrifying yourself with ghosts and apparitions, while your house is the haunt of robbers. It is thus with all those, who, attending only to the shell and husk of history, think they are waging war with intolerance, pride, and cruelty, whilst, under color of abhorring the ill principles of antiquated parties, they are authorizing and feeding the same odious vices in different factions, and perhaps in worse."

A voice of wisdom, speaking to us in our time....

Thanks so much for your kind words, Phaedrus. I'm sure I don't deserve such high praise; though I think beckett does! One last thing: You ain't no "Redneck." :^)

Good night, my friend.

61 posted on 02/08/2003 9:11:45 PM PST by betty boop
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To: Phaedrus
Burke is far deeper than I had ever imagined

. . . who writes to make us covet his pen. Although Scruton's muse is busy in this piece as well. Reflections borne out of lengthy meditation are always of such a kind.

62 posted on 02/08/2003 9:32:03 PM PST by cornelis
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To: Hank Kerchief; thinktwice
FYI
63 posted on 02/08/2003 9:35:13 PM PST by cornelis
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To: betty boop
It's been sitting on my "primo" bookshelf for years now, just waiting for me to get to it.

(Just out of curiosity ... what else in on the shelf?)

64 posted on 02/08/2003 9:36:29 PM PST by Askel5
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To: betty boop
Thank you so very much for sharing all this great information and your analysis! Excellent!
65 posted on 02/08/2003 11:00:11 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: cornelis
natural selection

touche

66 posted on 02/09/2003 5:44:57 AM PST by Dataman
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To: betty boop
We humans have become increasingly shameless. It probably has to do with the increasing general contempt for God ["there is no God, only matter and its motion], the foundation of moral order. And our shamelessness leaves us defenseless against the seductive blandishments of the avatars of tyranny. The rhetoric of “Liberte [W/o God, as the French Rev illustrated, Liberty becomes meaningless], Egalite [Some men are more evolved that others, as Hitler showed us], Fraternite"[How does the brotherhood of man fit in with survival of the fittest?] sounds so good and right and decent, how can it have been such a successful mask for so much Evil in the world, down to the present time?

A mask for evil it was and a mask for evil it remains. Good thought!

67 posted on 02/09/2003 5:57:52 AM PST by Dataman
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To: JohnHuang2
Once again thanks for this excellent essay. You always provide thought provoking material!
68 posted on 02/09/2003 6:21:45 AM PST by Pietro
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To: Pietro
You're welcome, friend.
69 posted on 02/09/2003 6:23:22 AM PST by JohnHuang2
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To: betty boop; beckett; Askel5; Alamo-Girl; Dataman; cornelis
... all those abuses (and there were enough of them) were hardly thought sufficient ground to such a confiscation as it was for his purposes to make. He therefore procured the formal surrender of these estates. All these operose proceedings were adopted by one of the most decided tyrants in the rolls of history, as necessary preliminaries, before he could venture, by bribing the members of his two servile houses with a share in the spoil, and holding out to them an eternal immunity from taxation, to demand a confirmation of his iniquitous proceedings by an act of parliament.

In contrast to the French, Henry the Eighth had the grace to acknowledge his humanity by also acknowledging the immorality of his acts (and, yes, I do believe that human beings are, by nature, moral).

Most of all he emphasized that the new forms of politics, which hope to organize society around the rational pursuit of liberty, equality, fraternity, or their modernist equivalents, are actually forms of militant irrationality. There is no way in which people can collectively pursue liberty, equality, and fraternity ... Nevertheless, a form of collective rationality does emerge in these cases, and its popular name is war.

"Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is an adolescent formula, perfectly stylish but without substance, so like this Postmodern Age and so like the French, I 'm sorry to say.

Foucault’s Les mots et les choses, the bible of the soixante-huitards, the text which seemed to justify every form of transgression, by showing that obedience is merely defeat. It is an artful book, composed with a satanic mendacity, selectively appropriating facts in order to show that culture and knowledge are nothing but the “discourses” of power. The book is not a work of philosophy but an exercise in rhetoric. Its goal is subversion ...

Yes.

The revolutionary spirit, which searches the world for things to hate, has found in Foucault a new literary formula.

Yes.

Law is constrained at every point by reality, and utopian visions have no place in it.

Far less true in America today and thus a threat to civilization itself. Law is supposed to operate at the margin of society and to be boring but reliable. It is supposed to codify social wisdom, not be a playground for social experimentation. We lose reliable law at our peril. "The Law" today has become a perversion.

... aesthetic judgment matters ...

Here is a point that is vastly underappreciated IMHO and before we emerge from this Dark Materialist Age I believe we must come to understand that God in not only Truth, "He" is also Beauty. I am going to be accused of great pomposity for saying this, but I believe that a combination of careful thought, reasoning and acknowledgement of all that it means to be human will get you there.

He persuaded me that societies are not and cannot be organized according to a plan or a goal, that there is no direction to history, and no such thing as moral or spiritual progress...

Reductionist human plans and planning are not adequate, I would agree, but I do believe there has been spiritual progress (and this Intellectual Redneck will probably get beat up bigtime for saying this -- I do think I can defend it, though).

Most of all he emphasized that the new forms of politics, which hope to organize society around the rational pursuit of liberty, equality, fraternity, or their modernist equivalents, are actually forms of militant irrationality. There is no way in which people can collectively pursue liberty, equality, and fraternity ... Nevertheless, a form of collective rationality does emerge in these cases, and its popular name is war.

Society, [Burke] argued, is not held together by the abstract rights of the citizen, as the French Revolutionaries supposed. It is held together by authority—by which is meant the right to obedience ...

I see society more as organic, growing in accord with seminal ideas and adopting such forms for control of the aberrant as are necessary, but when the means of control are manipulated by those in control to tighten their contol and satiate their greed, we have tyranny. "Right" authority is selfless. American history is testimony to the power of right ideas.

The abstract, unreal freedom of the liberal intellect was really nothing more than childish disobedience, amplified into anarchy.

Yes, exactly and precisely. This is what the Liberals are foisting upon our children and upon society.

Burke’s provocative defense, in this connection, of “prejudice” —by which he meant the set of beliefs and ideas that arise instinctively in social beings, and which reflect the root experiences of social life—was a revelation of something that until then I had entirely overlooked.

... people distinguish seemly from unseemly conduct, abhor explicit sexual display, and require modesty in women and chivalry in men in the negotiations that precede sexual union. There are very good anthropological reasons for this, in terms of the long-term stability of sexual relations, and the commitment that is necessary if children are to be inducted into society. But these are not the reasons that motivate the traditional conduct of men and women. This conduct is guided by deep and immovable prejudice, in which outrage, shame, and honor are the ultimate grounds. The sexual liberator has no difficulty in showing that those motives are irrational, in the sense of being founded on no reasoned justification available to the person whose motives they are. And he may propose sexual liberation as a rational alternative, a code of conduct that is rational from the first-person viewpoint, since it derives a complete code of practice from a transparently reasonable aim, which is sexual pleasure.

Yes. Convention is codified social wisdom. Note that Scruton is also saying that individual morality is innate.

This substitution of reason for prejudice has indeed occurred. And the result is exactly as Burke would have anticipated. Not merely a breakdown in trust between the sexes, but a faltering in the reproductive process—a failing and enfeebled commitment of parents, not merely to each other, but also to their offspring. At the same time, individual feelings, which were shored up and fulfilled by the traditional prejudices, are left exposed and unprotected by the skeletal structures of rationality. Hence the extraordinary situation in America, where lawsuits have replaced common courtesy, where post-coital accusations of “date-rape” take the place of pre-coital modesty, and where advances made by the unattractive are routinely penalized as “sexual harrassment.” This is an example of what happens, when prejudice is wiped away in the name of reason, without regard for the real social function that prejudice alone can fulfill. And indeed, it was partly by reflecting on the disaster of sexual liberation, and the joyless world that it has produced around us, that I came to see the truth of Burke’s otherwise somewhat paradoxical defense of prejudice.

Yes, and the decline is real.

Rightly understood, [Burke] argued, society is a partnership among the dead, the living, and the unborn, and without what he called the “hereditary principle,” according to which rights could be inherited as well as acquired, both the dead and the unborn would be disenfranchized. Indeed, respect for the dead was, in Burke’s view, the only real safeguard that the unborn could obtain, in a world that gave all its privileges to the living. His preferred vision of society was not as a contract, in fact, but as a trust, with the living members as trustees of an inheritance that they must strive to enhance and pass on.

"Trust" is the stunningly appropriate concept.

With apologies for the length of this post, Burke and Scruton, as you see, did resonate.

70 posted on 02/09/2003 7:35:43 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: Dataman
You know that I find Evolution to be beneath contempt as science. Foucault would have been proud ... IMHO, of course, since in this PostModern Age all is a matter of opinion ... ;-}
71 posted on 02/09/2003 8:06:58 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: JohnHuang2
In the narrow street below my window the students were shouting and smashing. The plate-glass windows of the shops appeared to step back, shudder for a second, and then give up the ghost, as the reflections suddenly left them and they slid in jagged fragments to the ground. Cars rose into the air and landed on their sides, their juices flowing from unseen wounds. The air was filled with triumphant shouts, as one by one lamp-posts and bollards were uprooted and piled on the tarmac, to form a barricade against the next van-load of policemen.

What a beautifully crafted paragraph! The underlined sentence is an absolute masterpiece!

72 posted on 02/09/2003 8:22:53 AM PST by reg45
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To: Phaedrus
Law is supposed to operate at the margin of society and to be boring but reliable. It is supposed to codify social wisdom, not be a playground for social experimentation.

So right- not only does social experimentation undermine the foundations of law, it serves to wriggle the tooth until it can be extracted and replaced with a foolish but deadly globalist tyranny.

"Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is an adolescent formula, perfectly stylish but without substance, so like this Postmodern Age and so like the French, I 'm sorry to say.

Was it ever meant to have susbstance? I think not. It was as meaningful as the Communist promise to liberate the worker, the Nazi claim to create the super human.

You know that I find Evolution to be beneath contempt as science. Foucault would have been proud ... IMHO, of course, since in this PostModern Age all is a matter of opinion ... ;-}

Right you are. I should have known better than to interject that flawed product of a faulty worldview in hopes of luring one of them to foolishly try to defend it. There are too many sharks in the water.

73 posted on 02/09/2003 2:26:35 PM PST by Dataman
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To: JohnHuang2
Welcome to the World of Post European "Passive Nihilism", warned by and as predicted by F. Nietzsche which has spread throughout Western Cultures.

Export Nihilistic Liberalism as a Weapon of Mass Cultural Destruction.

Hollywood= WMCD

74 posted on 02/09/2003 2:36:52 PM PST by Helms
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To: betty boop
I have a book of collected writings of Burke always near the nightstand. I have Kirk's and O'Brian's biographies as well, but nothing serves as well as his own words.
75 posted on 02/09/2003 4:55:05 PM PST by KC Burke
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To: KC Burke
Certainly, Burke is eminently quotable. The edition I have is too nice to mark up with a highlighter pen. So I plan to get the paperback edition of Reflections on the Revolution in France just so's I can do that. :^)

IMHO, this work is indispensable reading for political and cultural convervatives. It is (among other things) a devastating attack on the essential logic of the "Gallican" concept of liberty. Edmund Burke explodes the insane asylum that was revolutionary France -- its "pure democracy," its vaunted National Assembly, and the Terror and sheer national devastation that body wrought. And also details the means by which this enterprise was effected, and speculates as to its purposes.

This stuff was "mother's milk" to Marx. If you want to/need to converse with "liberals," socialists, and/or "progressives," arm yourself by reading Burke first. JMHO FWIW

76 posted on 02/09/2003 6:31:57 PM PST by betty boop
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To: Phaedrus
I do believe that human beings are, by nature, moral....

Phaedrus, you say, "by nature." How is this concept to be conveyed to, say, a Darwinist (let alone any other species of materialist or utilitarianist or "formalist") in any kind of intelligible way that would be consistent with what you mean by this statement?

The search for a common language seems to be the main challenge these days. And the search is made more difficult, given the increasingly polyglot and "multicultural" character of our native nation, not to mention the sheer impermeability of the reigning political orthodoxies with respect to the reception of new insights, experiences, or information....

77 posted on 02/09/2003 6:42:43 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Those wanting a version for cut and paste can go to this link for a web copy of Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France
78 posted on 02/09/2003 6:46:48 PM PST by KC Burke
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To: betty boop
Phaedrus, you say, [that human beings are, by nature, moral]. How is this concept to be conveyed to, say, a Darwinist (let alone any other species of materialist or utilitarianist or "formalist") in any kind of intelligible way that would be consistent with what you mean by this statement?

Burke and Scruton make the point well, I think, but there is a fairly large class of people in this culture and in this time who are in denial and I further think they have removed themselves from reachability by discourse.

You know that I believe truth to be a "felt thing", and an example I would give is your earlier post recounting a vivid, compelling, enlightening dream, a moving experience having everything to do with truth.

The search for a common language seems to be the main challenge these days. And the search is made more difficult, given the increasingly polyglot and "multicultural" character of our native nation, not to mention the sheer impermeability of the reigning political orthodoxies with respect to the reception of new insights, experiences, or information....

The human experience is remarkably unform in many ways and the same "general rules" of conduct, the Golden Rule for example, seem to be more-or-less consistent across cultures.

You are asking, though, a very large question, bb, and I know you have your thoughts, but I don't believe the answer is to be found in improved communication for a large minority of our culture. Most do not think and are thus led apathetically toward vague "conclusions". The "Elite, Liberal" academic contingent, though, cannot be blind to their fundamentally erroneous Materialism and Atheism. They are too bright. I believe that they exhibit psychological dysfunction, severe insecurity and arrested development, by virtue of their eternal dependence upon others for their sustenance. They are cowards through and through. They are unreachable in the present institutional context.

Your take?

79 posted on 02/09/2003 7:15:53 PM PST by Phaedrus
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To: IronJack
Ping.
80 posted on 02/09/2003 7:43:43 PM PST by diotima (****DO NOT TAUNT HAPPY FUN BALL****)
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To: Phaedrus; beckett; cornelis; Alamo-Girl; Askel5; Diamond; Dataman; KC Burke
I don't believe the answer is to be found in improved communication for a large minority of our culture.

Phaedrus, a whole lot of the people I talk to routinely seem to suggest that reason itself is some kind of universal language. But the more you talk to such folks, the more convinced you become that they do not have the least clue what reason is.

I gather that is why a "culture war" is continuously a-brewing these days. Its result for practical human political and cultural purposes is a kind of "Tower of Babel scenario" in which each one speaks his own "private" language. The discourse of the British "commons," or of the ancient Greek "Agora," is completely missing.

Which quite possibly may be some part of the reason why many people today don't have either a map or a compass.... That is to say, they are perfectly clueless about things that are larger than themselves.

81 posted on 02/09/2003 7:45:46 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop; Phaedrus
Thank you for heads up to this great discussion!

Phaedrus: You know that I believe truth to be a "felt thing", and an example I would give is your earlier post recounting a vivid, compelling, enlightening dream, a moving experience having everything to do with truth.

I agree! Truth is revealed, it cannot be discovered by intellectual prowess. It is discerned spiritually, and results in a sense of knowing. Some call the experience “illumination” or “enlightenment.” It doesn’t compare with solving an equation or riddle or actualizing an image.

Betty boop: The search for a common language seems to be the main challenge these days.

Phaedrus: You are asking, though, a very large question, bb, and I know you have your thoughts, but I don't believe the answer is to be found in improved communication for a large minority of our culture. Most do not think and are thus led apathetically toward vague "conclusions".

Betty boop: Phaedrus, a whole lot of the people I talk to routinely seem to suggest that reason itself is some kind of universal language. But the more you talk to such folks, the more convinced you become that they do not have the least clue what reason is.

This is an excellent and timely debate! Thank you both!

My two cents: we have become a society of spectators with very few players. People choose sides in causes, politics, ideology and scientific theory with as much thoughtfulness as picking a football team to win the Super Bowl. The advocacy is based on sound bites, spin and slogans. The results are strength in numbers - energetic, loud, loyal - but at the same time, deaf and blind. Thinking has nothing to do with it for the spectators. IMHO, whereas a universal language would be useful to the precious few players - it will nevertheless require marketing for the spectators to benefit from the effort.

82 posted on 02/09/2003 9:16:53 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: JohnHuang2
To my rescue came Burke.

My conservatism was saved by the same chevalier.

83 posted on 02/10/2003 4:37:54 AM PST by IronJack
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To: JohnHuang2
It's funny but the thing that really resonated w/ me in this magnificent essay was Burke's linkage between liberalism and modern architecture.

From an early age (13) I have despised the international style of arch. personified by van der Rohe and Johnson, Ventura is a dog as well. Beyond a doubt it is UGLY, impersonal, and anti-human. All of these characteristics can also be applied to liberalism. Modern "art" is equally as quilty in debasing humanity.

Tom Wolfe wrote a scathing indictment of this arch. in "From Bauhaus to Our House" which, I think, changed the direction of arch. in a significant way.

84 posted on 02/10/2003 6:42:07 AM PST by Pietro
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To: Pietro
Have you read Ortega y Gasset's The Dehumanization of Art?
85 posted on 02/10/2003 7:11:39 AM PST by cornelis
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To: Alamo-Girl
Truth is revealed, it cannot be discovered by intellectual prowess. It is discerned spiritually, and results in a sense of knowing. Some call the experience “illumination” or “enlightenment.” It doesn’t compare with solving an equation or riddle or actualizing an image.

Wait--we aren't switching courts, are we? (Oh, never mind. Back to Burke and Scruton.)

86 posted on 02/10/2003 7:18:07 AM PST by cornelis (resistance to inquiry is prima facie cause for such inquiry)
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To: Phaedrus; betty boop
The discourse of the agora had better moments. In the Gorgias, Plato recognizes the loss of communication in the sneer of Callicles. Voegelin comments:

The sneers of Callicles can be effective only against men of his own ilk. They fall flat before a man who is ready to die. . .

The argument [between Socrates and Callicles] is not yet directed personally against Callicles, but we feel the tension increasing toward the point where Callicles [in his speech] is co-responsible, through his conniving conduct, for the murder of Socrates and perhaps of Plato himself. The social conventions, [FR protocol?] which Callicles despises, are wearing thin; and the advocate of nature is brought to realize that he is a murderer face to face with his victim. The situation is fascinating for those among us who find ourselves in the Platonic [Socratic?] position and who recognize in the men with whom we associate today the intellectual pimps for power who will connive our murder tomorrow. . .

Insofar as a dialogue is an attempt at existential communication, it is an attempt to liberate the soul form its passions, to denude it of its body. Socrates speaks to his interlocutors as if they were "dead" souls, or at least as if they were souls who are capable of death. On the part of Socrates, the dialogue is an attempt to submit the others, at least tentatively, to the catharsis of death. The judgment of the dead thus is enacted in part in the dialouge itself, concretely, in the attempt of Socrates to pierce through the "body" of his interlocutors to their naked souls. He tries to make die, and thereby to make live, those who threaten him with death.


87 posted on 02/10/2003 7:30:20 AM PST by cornelis
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To: cornelis
or "Revolt of the Masses".
88 posted on 02/10/2003 7:46:48 AM PST by Helms
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To: Helms
Yes, also by Ortega, but the dehumanization of art was not a popular move. Two very different theses by the same author. The love of modern art is the revolt, i.e. the pretended understanding of the art form.
89 posted on 02/10/2003 7:51:41 AM PST by cornelis
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To: KC Burke
KC Burke, thank you so much for posting the link to Burke's Reflections.
90 posted on 02/10/2003 8:11:38 AM PST by betty boop
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To: cornelis; Alamo-Girl; Phaedrus
The situation is fascinating for those among us who find ourselves in the Platonic [Socratic?] position and who recognize in the men with whom we associate today the intellectual pimps for power who will connive our murder tomorrow. . .

Well did Voegelin understand this. Unlike Heidegger, who became a willing tool of the Nazis, Voegelin spoke out against them, and so was stripped of his teaching credentials. When he learned that the Gestapo was about to pull his passport, he and his wife, Lisse, fled -- just in time. Sneering, murderous rhetoric inevitably leads to just plain murder.

Thank you so much for writing, cornelis.

91 posted on 02/10/2003 8:20:07 AM PST by betty boop
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To: Phaedrus; Alamo-Girl; cornelis; beckett
You know that I believe truth to be a "felt thing"....

I believe it was William James who observed that it is in the deeper, blinder strata of the self that is the only place in the world where we catch new fact in the making. I agree with you, truth is a "felt thing." However, it seems to me that to "feel" truth in this sense requires the death of the passions -- in the Socratic sense that cornelis was speaking of earlier. For passion misleads; it disorders; it does not permit us to see clearly. Unruly, disordered, power-mad men generally will not be terribly interested in truth. They're just interested in "results."

92 posted on 02/10/2003 8:36:04 AM PST by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl; beckett; cornelis; Phaedrus
My two cents: we have become a society of spectators with very few players. People choose sides in causes, politics, ideology and scientific theory with as much thoughtfulness as picking a football team to win the Super Bowl. The advocacy is based on sound bites, spin and slogans. The results are strength in numbers - energetic, loud, loyal - but at the same time, deaf and blind.

And I suppose thus it has ever been, Alamo-Girl. The really scary thing is the increasing legitimacy being given to public opinion polls as guides to public policy. That is a prescription for disaster. Rhetoric increasingly becomes a substitute for reality. But you can't live in rhetoric....

Thank you so much for writing, A-G!

93 posted on 02/10/2003 8:44:36 AM PST by betty boop
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To: cornelis
"The Dehumanization of Art"

No I haven't, I'll look for it.

94 posted on 02/10/2003 8:45:13 AM PST by Pietro
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To: cornelis; betty boop
Thank y'all so much for your posts!

cornelis: Wait--we aren't switching courts, are we?

I didn't mean to switch courts. If I did, I apologize. The article said:

Perhaps the most fascinating and terrifying aspect of Communism was its ability to banish truth from human affairs, and to force whole populations to “live within the lie,” as President Havel put it.

Thus, to me, it seemed the nature of "truth" was a subject for this thread.

IMHO, Marxism derives power from the thought-mechanism of the animal soul, the nephesh in Hebrew. Conversely, conservatism derives power from Truth revealed to the spirit, the neshamah in Hebrew.

Nephesh responds to gratification and yields moral relativity. Neshamah submits to higher purpose and yields moral absolutes.

From there I went into my rant about our spectator society. It seems to me that the "players" (you thinkers) will need to communicate Truth to the general public in sound bites, spin and slogans.

Just my two cents, I'll leave the intellectual "heavy-lifting" up to y'all.

95 posted on 02/10/2003 9:55:21 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: JohnHuang2
Thank you for posting this.
96 posted on 02/10/2003 10:11:28 AM PST by headsonpikes
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To: JohnHuang2
Bookmarked Under My Profile

Thanks!

97 posted on 02/10/2003 10:22:41 AM PST by rightwingreligiousfanatic (Any similarity to other taglines, real or fictional, is purely coincidental....)
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To: Alamo-Girl; beckett; cornelis; Phaedrus
Nephesh responds to gratification and yields moral relativity. Neshamah submits to higher purpose and yields moral absolutes.

Lovely, Alamo-Girl! You've spoken of this before, and I'm glad you mention it again in the context of this thread.

Only Neshamah can respond to the divine "pull," or to the golden cords of our nature, as Plato put it in his myth. Only Neshamah can "resonate" with the Rauch, the Spirit (or Breath) of God. Only Neshamah can give us a felt sense of our common humanity with other men, the only source of human fellow feeling, of pity, of mercy.

But here's a little taste of what Nephesh can do -- when animal nature is given free rein and dissolves itself into the frenzy of the mob:

“BELIEVE ME, SIR, those who attempt to level, never equalize. In all societies, consisting of various descriptions of citizens, some description must be uppermost. The levelers, therefore, only change and pervert the natural order of things; they load the edifice of society by setting up in the air what the solidity of the structure requires to be on the ground….

“The [French Revolutionary National] Assembly, their organ, acts before them the farce of deliberation with as little decency as liberty. They act like the comedians of a fair before a riotous audience; they act amidst the tumultuous cries of a mixed mob of ferocious men, and of women lost to shame, who, according to their insolent fancies, direct, control, applaud, explode them, and sometimes mix and take their seats amongst them, domineering over them with a strange mixture of servile petulance and proud, presumptuous authority. As they have inverted order in all things, the gallery is in the place of the house. This assembly, which overthrows kings and kingdoms, has not even the physiognomy and aspect of a grave legislative body -- nec color imperii, nec frons ulla senatus. They have a power given to them, like that of the evil principle, to subvert and destroy, but none to construct, except such machines as may be fitted for further subversion and further destruction….

“But history, who keeps a durable record of all our acts and exercises her awful censure over the proceedings of all sorts of sovereigns, will not forget either those events or the era of this liberal refinement in the intercourse of mankind. History will record that on the morning of the 6th of October, 1789, the king and queen of France, after a day of confusion, alarm, dismay, and slaughter, lay down, under the pledged security of public faith, to indulge nature in a few hours of respite and troubled, melancholy repose. From this sleep the queen was first startled by the sentinel at her door, who cried out to her to save herself by flight -- that this was the last proof of fidelity he could give -- that they were upon him, and he was dead. Instantly he was cut down. A band of cruel ruffians and assassins, reeking with his blood, rushed into the chamber of the queen and pierced with a hundred strokes of bayonets and poniards the bed, from whence this persecuted woman had but just time to fly almost naked, and, through ways unknown to the murderers, had escaped to seek refuge at the feet of a king and husband not secure of his own life for a moment.

“This king, to say no more of him, and this queen, and their infant children (who once would have been the pride and hope of a great and generous people) were then forced to abandon the sanctuary of the most splendid palace in the world, which they left swimming in blood, polluted by massacre and strewed with scattered limbs and mutilated carcasses. Thence they were conducted into the capital of their kingdom.

“Two had been selected from the unprovoked, unresisted, promiscuous slaughter, which was made of the gentlemen of birth and family who composed the king’s body guard. These two gentlemen, with all the parade of an execution of justice, were cruelly and publicly dragged to the block and beheaded in the great court of the palace. Their heads were stuck upon spears and led the procession, whilst the royal captives who followed in the train were slowly moved along, amidst the horrid yells, and shrilling screams, and frantic dances, and infamous contumelies, and all the unutterable abominations of the furies of hell in the abused shape of the vilest of women. After they had been made to taste, drop by drop, more than the bitterness of death in the slow torture of a journey of twelve miles, protracted to six hours, they were, under a guard composed of those very soldiers who had thus conducted them through this famous triumph, lodged in one of the old palaces of Paris, now converted into a bastille for kings.”

-- Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.

How any human being on the face of the earth, at any time in human history, could ever suppose that such horrific acts can be the precursor of some genuine, real human good is beyond all understanding. And yet, supposedly, the Parisian mob entertained just this idea.

I note with dismay the "rent-a-mobs" of our own time....

98 posted on 02/10/2003 11:15:53 AM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for that excerpt!

How any human being on the face of the earth, at any time in human history, could ever suppose that such horrific acts can be the precursor of some genuine, real human good is beyond all understanding.

Indeed. I assert it is beyond all understanding because the nephesh never understands, it only gratifies. I also join in your dismay at the "rent-a-mobs" of our own time.

IMHO, the best hope lies in speaking to the neshamah. And that is very difficult in these times, as much of mankind – particularly many of the intellectual elite - are delusional. They have silenced their neshamah by declaring that the physical realm is all that there is; that the conscious is but an impertinent physical phenomenon; and therefore, the end (or objective) always justifies the means.

99 posted on 02/10/2003 12:14:45 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Askel5
(Just out of curiosity ... what else in on the shelf?)

I should have said "primo" bookcase, which sits in my living room. (The major part of my library is located in another part of the house.) It's the one that I use for my most cherished books. It's a sort of "grab bag," the sort of thing you'd expect of a generalist of conservative tendencies. Your asking me what's on it gives me a welcome chance to "flog" my favorite books! :^)

There's lots of Eric Voegelin (I'm collecting all his titles over time) and Plato. There's a rather large "Americana" section: works of the Framers (e.g., collected letters of T. Jefferson, Federalist); plus the new John Adams biography; a few years back I was collecting sources of the Framers' thought (e.g., Locke, Hume, Burke, Milton's Areopagitica, Trenchard and Gordon's Cato's Letters). They're all there still. Also critical studies of the founding period by Bernard Baylin (e.g., The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution and The Ideological Origins of American Politics). I have the Autobiography of U.S. Grant (a first edition!), the collected writings of John Calhoun, including his masterful Disquisition on Government.

Then there are writers on American and Western culture, such as Russell Kirk (The Roots of American Order), Richard Weaver (The Southern Tradition at Bay), the Vanderbilt Agrarians (I'll Take My Stand), A. J. Nock (Our Enemy, the State), Frank Chodorov (Fugitive Essays) Jacques Barzun, James Burnham (esp. Suicide of the West); lots of Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams. I only have two works on economics on these shelves: Ludwig von Mises (Human Action) and Joseph Schumpeter (Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy).

Other than Voegelin, Plato, Aristotle, and the Framers' sources, the only other philosophers there: Alasdair McIntyre's After Virtue. Theology: St. Thomas Aquinas, St. John of the Cross, Francis Schaffer (Trilogy), Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, and books by or about Pope John Paul II (including the fine Carl Bernstein biography). Of course, the King James Bible is there.

My science section is a-building: Wolfram, Gleick, Heisenberg, Sir James Jeans, Einstein, and (new accessions!!!) Roger Penrose, Evan Harris Walker, Christopher Wills....

I have Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Also Vilfredo Pareto's Mind and Society.

This bookshelf is relatively poetry and plays "lite": But T.S. Eliot and John Donne are there; also a collection of Shakespeare's Sonnets. Also Dante's Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost. The plays: T.S. Eliot's Murder in the Cathedral, Aeschylus' Orestiea, and a collection of Moliere (he just cracks me up!).

I have most of the C.S. Lewis (my favorites: The Screwtape Letters and The Great Divorce) and G. E. K. Chesterton titles (I love his biographies of Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Francis of Assisi).

It's "fiction-lite", too. Only truly beloved titles are there, including Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, The Possessed, The Idiot); the collected works of Jane Austin; Boccaccio's Decameron; Sir Thomas Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur; also Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Also one of the greatest autobiographies ever written (IMHO) is there: Whittaker Chambers' Witness, as well as Sam Tannenbaum's excellent critical biography of Chambers.

I think that's about it. Pretty eclectic, no?!

Thanks for asking, A-G. Hugs!

100 posted on 02/10/2003 12:40:44 PM PST by betty boop
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